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This post has 145 Replies | 14 Followers

Posts 115
Joel J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 1:10 PM

To clarify, I have not done this myself, but I think it's worth discussing.  I posted this in another thread, so I'll just copy my edited version here:

If I own a printed book, am I able to make a photocopy of some selected pages to protect them?  Is God bothered if I do that, or is He bothered when I break the purpose of the law?  For example, maybe I didn't want to ruin my original copy, so I wanted to carry around the photocopy instead.  This happens especially with out-of-print books.

It seems like the "spirit of the law" is to prevent reproduction and/or resale of the book, so that someone else illegally profits.  For instance, it would be immoral to burn a copy of a CD to your computer (keeping the MP3's), then resell the CD on Half.com.  In that case, you are changing the format and profiting.  Or, if you gave away PDF's of your Logos books for free, that would also be stealing from the publisher.  

On the other hand, copying for your own purposes -- when no one else is reading the text at the same time -- seems to be a different case.  I think it is helpful to distinguish between these purposes.  If there is no different, then we probably shouldn't print anything from Logos; that would be changing the format from digital to print.

Thoughts?

Posts 115
Joel J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 1:12 PM

 

Very helpful.  Thanks for posting those.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 1:17 PM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:

Just a thought... I doubt the illegality of this (whether true or not) would stand up in court with a "fair use" defense....  Granted, posting it in a public forum might change that, but for personal use (if owned) I'd be willing to go to court over it...

(Note: I do not have or use an Ereader of any kind, was just thinking of the legal issues here)

Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) it is illegal to circumvent copyright protections/encryption. Logos books have DRM/encryption. The copy provisions in Logos provide for fair use (limited copying) but to copy a whole book into another format for reading would violate the letter of this law. For example, it is illegal for me to rip a DVD to view it on my iPod, even though I purchased the DVD. The reality is that most electronic media purchases are "licenses" to use the content in a specific way. Publishers want to preserve their rights to sell you something twice.

Personally, I think that copyright laws should change to fit the times; I'm just trying to represent the US laws as best as I understand them.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 1:27 PM

Let me also state that there are examples of format shifting that exist under legal precedent: recording TV shows off the air, ripping CDs for personal use. Just because these situations are analogous to what we want to do with getting a Logos book into an e-reader doesn't mean that copyright holders haven't lobbied to get laws worded so that shifting doesn't extend to their products.

For example, have you ever wondered why there aren't music rental stores? They're illegal because of copyright concerns; when the laws and legal decisions were made it was easy to copy music and copyright holders were concerned music rental would seriously undermine their business. The movie studios tried to block video rental stores but were rebuffed simply because it was difficult to copy videos when the case was decided. Now, it's just as easy to copy a movie as music, but the legal precedents based on old technology persists.

So for books, it's legal to copy a few pages, but if you copy a substantial portion of the book (not well defined legally) then you are in violation of copyright. This is my concern with format shifting to a Kindle or similar device.

Posts 115
Joel J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 1:47 PM

 

I agree that one medium (ripping CDs) does not necessarily justify another medium (formating text).  I suppose it comes down to precedent, and if they allow those other format adjustments, then why would text be an exception?

(Not that this is very important, but just in case anyone reading this wanted to rent music, there are a few places that legally allow for this, such as Napster and Rhapsody.)

 

- Joel

Posts 115
Joel J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 1:51 PM


By the way, I don't mean to be argumentative.  I think this is important to discuss, and I appreciate the fact that people are taking this seriously.  

As a musician, copyright laws are very significant to me.  Personally, I wouldn't care if someone changed formats, as long as it didn't steal from me.

Anyways, I am glad to see this being discussed.  :)

 

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 2:31 PM

 

It seems logical to me, that a person with a movie is paying for the viewing of that movie at one time on one medium.  Nowadays, you buy the blue-ray and you get also a DVD AND a digital code to load it up to iTunes.

So what is wrong with "one reading" of the book at one time?  What is the difference, if I read it on Kindle, iPhone, or L4 on my computer?  The desire here, is not to cheat Logos or anyone, but to provide a greater access to the one book you bought.

So I think that the license should be for the book; not the media.  So if I am reading the ESV Bible, I get the Bible in L4, and can read it on iPhone and Kindle.  Otherwise, like right now, I have to buy ESV on Kindle, as a separate purchase!  But I cannot possibly read it on Kindle and my computer at the same time, or on my iPhone and Kindle, and so on.

In an effort to avoid the greed of the individual, some companies practice corporate greed.  I am surely not accusing Logos of that.

But where a company wants to sell me a printed book, a Kindle file and then require some other electronic file, that is ridiculous!

 

 

Posts 530
John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 6:07 PM

Dan Sheppard:
But where a company wants to sell me a printed book, a Kindle file and then require some other electronic file, that is ridiculous!

Ridiculous?  Absolutley.

The law? Yes it is. 

You can thank the Digital Millenium Copyright Act for that.  It seems unfair, and it is, but it is the law.

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 8:06 PM

Kevin Becker:
Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) it is illegal to circumvent copyright protections/encryption. Logos books have DRM/encryption. The copy provisions in Logos provide for fair use (limited copying) but to copy a whole book into another format for reading would violate the letter of this law. For example, it is illegal for me to rip a DVD to view it on my iPod, even though I purchased the DVD. The reality is that most electronic media purchases are "licenses" to use the content in a specific way. Publishers want to preserve their rights to sell you something twice.

Thank you for some clarification Kevin, makes a bit of since I suppose.  I think we'll see a few court cases in these areas very soon, and we'll all get a bit more clarification (both company and consumer).

-as usual I jump ahead of my own intelligence and end up eating a lot of foot.... Indifferent (hence my green teeth)

Posts 44
A.A. van der Leij | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2010 11:31 PM

Dan Sheppard:

 

It seems logical to me, that a person with a movie is paying for the viewing of that movie at one time on one medium.  Nowadays, you buy the blue-ray and you get also a DVD AND a digital code to load it up to iTunes.

So what is wrong with "one reading" of the book at one time?  What is the difference, if I read it on Kindle, iPhone, or L4 on my computer?  The desire here, is not to cheat Logos or anyone, but to provide a greater access to the one book you bought.

So I think that the license should be for the book; not the media.  So if I am reading the ESV Bible, I get the Bible in L4, and can read it on iPhone and Kindle.  Otherwise, like right now, I have to buy ESV on Kindle, as a separate purchase!  But I cannot possibly read it on Kindle and my computer at the same time, or on my iPhone and Kindle, and so on.

In an effort to avoid the greed of the individual, some companies practice corporate greed.  I am surely not accusing Logos of that.

But where a company wants to sell me a printed book, a Kindle file and then require some other electronic file, that is ridiculous!

 

 

 

A M E N

I say a big Amen to this, I totally agree.
I have bought just a few days ago Walther Bruegemann's 'Theology of the Old Testament'. Guess what, at the inside of the back cover was a CD attached for Logos, additionally to the book, there was also the study guide for the book, and probably some bibles too. That is how it should be, maybe not always via CD, but then certainly downloadable via the net with a free access code or so. And when I buy my iPod, or maybe in the future a Kindle, I should have the opportunity to read it on those devices too. I am paying for the intelectual content of the book, and where I read it, should be my choice, I should not have to pay for this again. It is stealing from me, when they let me pay  multiple times for the same intelectual content of a book.

Mat 6:33

Posts 19
Tom Traubitz | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 23 2010 10:03 AM

Documents can quickly be prepared from HTML, Word and PDF for Kindle with Mobipocket creator (free.)

http://www.mobipocket.com/en/downloadSoft/ProductDetailsCreator.asp

You can also make documents with active links from HTML and Word sources.   (Mobi format is a flavor of Kindle's native document format which Kindles recognize.)  I cut and paste a lot of my notes into Microsoft Word and then convert the document for Kindle for portability.

 

 

Posts 15
Alejandro Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 23 2010 4:26 PM

Now that Amazon is planning a "Kindle App Store" (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13577_3-10438661-36.html). Logos can theoritically make a Logos 4 App for Kindle. That would be really cool!

Then again, we have one Kindle in the house and my wife uses mine all the time, so I spend most of the time reading my Kindle (and Logos) books on my Iphone!

--Alex

Posts 2277
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 23 2010 10:39 PM

Alejandro Gonzalez:

Now that Amazon is planning a "Kindle App Store" (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13577_3-10438661-36.html). Logos can theoritically make a Logos 4 App for Kindle. That would be really cool!

Then again, we have one Kindle in the house and my wife uses mine all the time, so I spend most of the time reading my Kindle (and Logos) books on my Iphone!

--Alex

It would be fantastic to have a full-blown Logos app on the Kindle, but I would settle for just being able to export my books legally and conveniently from Logos to the Kindle. I fear, however, that attention might be directed towards the iSlate (presuming it exists) come Wednesday...

Oh well, something else to add to my Birthday list! Wink

Posts 44
A.A. van der Leij | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 24 2010 12:06 AM

Andy Evans:
Oh well, something else to add to my Birthday list! Wink

My birthday is only three weeks away, so can they please hurry up. Cake
I do hope there will be an app for the kindle, I think I prefer to have a kindle above the iPod, it's a bit bigger screen.

Mat 6:33

Posts 2277
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 24 2010 12:16 AM

A.A. van der Leij:

 

My birthday is only three weeks away, so can they please hurry up. Cake
I do hope there will be an app for the kindle, I think I prefer to have a kindle above the iPod, it's a bit bigger screen.

I agree that the Kindle is a far superior reading experience to the iPod... However, the rumour is that the iSlate will have a 10" screen... now that is tempting... I suspect the price may be the thing that restrains me... for now!

Having said that, my Birthday is not until May, so that gives me a little longer than you to save! Big Smile

Posts 44
A.A. van der Leij | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 24 2010 12:53 AM

Andy Evans:
Having said that, my Birthday is not until May, so that gives me a little longer than you to save! Big Smile

Well, the money is there, I'm just waiting for the appTongue Tied

Mat 6:33

Posts 2672
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 24 2010 6:21 AM

Andy Evans:
I agree that the Kindle is a far superior reading experience to the iPod... However, the rumour is that the iSlate will have a 10" screen... now that is tempting... I suspect the price may be the thing that restrains me... for now!

If you want to see me fall off a chair laughing hysterically, just come on over after they announce everything IF there is not an apple tablet. All the talking heads and all the kings horses won't be able to put Apple together again. Doubt it is going to happen but it would be delicious.

Posts 44
A.A. van der Leij | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 24 2010 11:19 AM

Well, apparently Apple is going to make an anouncement on the 26th of January, in a place where they usually announce new products. Also specifiactions have been leaked, and the purchases of groundmaterial has increased. The domain names iSlate are also in the possesion of Apple. All in all, it seems it's gonna happen. The question is when it will be on the market, and for how much. All apps of the iPod should also be able to run on the iSlate, which would mean that Logos should also work on it. If this is gonna happen, I'm gonna wait for it, let's see what they have to say on Tuesday.

Mat 6:33

Posts 15
Alejandro Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 24 2010 11:46 AM

I am very excited for the 26th! I just hope they use that new technology I saw on recently (http://www.netbookchoice.com/2010/01/08/pixel-qi’s-3qi-hybrid-display-shown-off-at-ces-video/) where you have an option of turning off the backlight and switching between e-ink mode and normal mode. It is hard to read for a very long time on a computer or iphone, due to the backlight.

 

--Alex

 

 

Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2010 2:42 PM

I agree completely. When I want to study, I will use logos on my computer. As a new owner of a kindle, the reason I bought was to read, and I have no doubt that if a logos app for the kindle would be created, I'd spend an inordinate amount of time reading books on the kindle that are in my logos library. I'm not as likely to do that on an iphone or itouch or ipad, as I think the e-ink lends itself to longer periods of reading. And I don't really want to do all that much highlighting, taking notes etc. I realize some might want to do that with their logos material if it was on a device like kindle, but I think if Bob and the Logos team could simply develop a kindle app with the new app store, which would access my logos books, I would read the hundreds of books I have in Logos format... man I can just imagine sitting down and reading through Luther's Works, or the Leadership Library, soaking it all in. I'm not as likely to do that in front of my computer, or with the i-line of hardware, as I do think Kindle or other eink e-readers are a great tool to do exactly that... read... Any thoughts Bob and Team Logos!  BTW, looking forward to warmer weather so I can begin to wear my Logos Cycling jersey, which is totally off topic!  Big Smile

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