L3 versus L4 versus L5

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Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 3:06 PM

This is a side-track from what others are talking about.

 

As far as some added resources to the higher packages go, I'd really like to see the Anchor Yale Bible DictionaryThe Essential IVP Reference Collection 3, and the IVP Dictionary of the Old Testament Bundle (2 vols.) thrown into the mix.

I've found the AYBD to be a frequently referred to resource by many, so it seems like that one should definitely be incorporated into the higher base packages.  Really, it should already be incorporated since it is such a relied on resource.

And as I've used the Faithlife Study Bible, I've noticed especially that the AYBD is cited.  But also the items from the The Essential IVP Reference Collection 3 and the IVP Dictionary of the Old Testament Bundle (2 vols.) are cited a lot when appropriate as well.  And by a lot, I mean a lot a lot... to the point where the FSB is somewhat frustrating to use because I have none of those resources which cost ~$330 with the Academic Discount, money I don't have right now (and probably won't have soon).  And I can only imagine what they cost to others without the discount.

I like the FSB, but if Logos is really looking to make Faithlife a big deal with their Logos software in the future, they definitely need to make them work together better from the get go.  Meaning that a lot of the resources used in the FSB should come in the base packages so that a person doesn't subscribe to the FSB only to notice that its half as functional as it should be because the resources it cites have to be bought separate.  Just my two cents.  If nothing else, it's something for Logos to consider (if they read this).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 6:35 PM

Unix:
There must be room to lower the prices of some items.

Don't forget that Logos generally is not the copyright owner or the publisher of the books they offer. Publishers may set minimum prices to minimize damage to their own profits. There may also be books Logos would like to offer that they can't get permission to offer. Logos has created additional bundles and base packages as well as modified packages/bundles in the last few years so I'm uncertain what you are suggesting that differs from current practice.

As for your desire for 4 Esdras it is translated in the NRSV where Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 Esdras & 2 Esdras refer to Esdras 1-4 receptively. The series that contains Melito entered pre-pub on March 28, 2012 and is the first item from St. Vladimir's in Logos so it may take a bit longer than average.

 

 

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Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 9:06 PM

Oh yeah, and PLEASE add the remaining 3 volumes newly added to Logos of the New American Commentary that are missing from the higher base packages!  At my seminary, they are the standard textbook for our interpretation classes.  So those items would definitely be a well appreciated addition!!

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Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 9:36 PM

Robert Wazlavek:

Oh yeah, and PLEASE add the remaining 3 volumes newly added to Logos of the New American Commentary that are missing from the higher base packages!  At my seminary, they are the standard textbook for our interpretation classes.  So those items would definitely be a well appreciated addition!!

When L4 came out, additional volumes that had been released in series that were in base packages were included in the upgraded base packages.

That was the reason for the cost to upgrade--additional resources that were added. Each existing customer was quoted a customized price for upgrades, based on whether or not they had already purchased those additional volumes. You don't have to pay for the same resource twice in Logos software. 

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 1:13 AM

Sorry about the bashing in this post, other's may not have these problems!

I think they have much work left to do. I allready pointed out one weakness (that there's too many encyclopedias, and that really is a weakness, package-buyers want value and variety for their money so who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?), and another is that they throw in a lot of secondary material in large packages other than the base-packages, instead of top-notch or even intermediate - and I can see where that is comming from - cheaper licenses and some customers won't notice any difference. Logos seems to think that all that people are looking at is the percantage how much You save, and how many titles are included. To me, these current large packages are repelling. I don't mean that they should start including more titles by really popular authors, not at all, I resent of some of the popular authors, but that Logos should hire more and better librarians who can really search out good titles, I think that is Logos's main task. Too bad that they sometimes want to but can't get a contract with a publisher.

One problem with both base-packages and some of the other large packages is that translations from the Gk, for example ECFs, come in late 19th century translations. Again it's cheaper for Logos, it's actually cost-free for Logos, as many have realized. Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with that for the most part, but for a couple of the most ancient ECFs: Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome, it makes difference with a newer translation. To have ALL Church Fathers and saints in modern translations is completely unnecessary though.

Regarding the Original Languages -base-package, they could omit a few commentaries and the KJV from it, and include the 1865 Common English Version New Testament. This request might not be that popular. But this is how I think. I want to select commentaries myself, and not let someone else do the choices. I really doubt that there is going to be any noticable changes when the L5 OL comes, because Logos is obviously trying to enice those who think of buying OL into buying the next step, a more expensive base-package, instead. But I doubt that all that many are convinced that they need a more expensive base-package, because many don't have so good skills in Gk, Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin that they would have use of more features and better expert e-books. Another thing comes to mind, that would be a reasonable change: inclusion of an e-book or a video with tuition of Gk foundations, most customers are interested in Gk anyway, fewer want Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin.

If they would make changes like these the various types of packages would look more serious.

But I'm not sure I want to wait 1½ years that Logos MAYBE does these improvements I've asked for. Probably there's not going to be substantial changes before L5, and that's frustrating, they COULD make the changes other than the changes in base-package, for example ½ year before L5 comes out. What I mean is, that although I'm in no hurry yet (I don't know yet how fast I'm going to progress in my studies because I don't know whether I'll get to start in a Catholic school in mid-August 2012 or in January 2013 and those studies are going to take about 1 year and after that I'll be able to focus better on Gk), perhaps I'll start buying titles separately, instead of waiting for suitable large packages other than base-packages, or a new L5 base-package on a bit higher cost level than the current base-package I have.

I think it's still going to take some time before L5 comes out - because maybe they need to wait for MacOS 11 to come out first and then hire more Mac-programmers to start, and I really think Logos wants to release L5 for both platforms simultaneously. Anyone who knows if Apple has plans for the release of 11? There's something about a MacOS X Lion APP on apples home page, due to come out in July 2012, but I don't have a clue what is meant by that, and I think X stands for 10 because it's a Latin numeral.

Either way, I want to wait until 11 comes, to upgrade to L5, because I'm going to invest in new hardware and I want to be able to compare which platform would be a better choice (I don't have a need for any other software, just a word processor).

MJ. Smith:

Unix:
There must be room to lower the prices of some items.

Don't forget that Logos generally is not the copyright owner or the publisher of the books they offer. Publishers may set minimum prices to minimize damage to their own profits. There may also be books Logos would like to offer that they can't get permission to offer. Logos has created additional bundles and base packages as well as modified packages/bundles in the last few years so I'm uncertain what you are suggesting that differs from current practice.
Someone who asks about 4 Esdras is likely to know that an English translation is included in NRSV. I wasn't asking for a translation. Besides, as for translations I already have the REB Apocrypha as printed matter - and I prefer it. A few verses of 4 Esdras have survived in a Gk manuscript - it's very hard to find this in Gk anywhere, Logos would really do a favour if they would search this out and sell it. I know this is a small question, but that's why I'm asking - it's not a huge task to ask for.
MJ. Smith:
As for your desire for 4 Esdras it is translated in the NRSV where Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 Esdras & 2 Esdras refer to Esdras 1-4 receptively.
OK, thank's for the info!
MJ. Smith:
The series that contains Melito entered pre-pub on March 28, 2012 and is the first item from St. Vladimir's in Logos so it may take a bit longer than average.

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Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 9:21 AM

(that there's too many encyclopedias, and that really is a weakness, package-buyers want value and variety for their money so who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?)

That may be a problem for you, but for me (and I imagine many others) it's not.  I'm in seminary and need plenty of resources to be able to cite in my papers.  Encyclopedia articles (and similar items) are typically easier to cite than commentaries (and similar items) because it's easier to pull certain information from them about a specific topic.  If I have 5 encyclopedias and I'm doing a paper on something moderately obscure, some of the encyclopedias might have articles about the topic that others don't.

So having more dictionary type resources allows for greater opportunity for quoting.  If I only had one encyclopedia, if it was a small one, and I could not find anything in it on my topic, then I'd have to wade through a bunch of water in a lot of commentaries that I wouldn't have had to do had I had more pure reference materials.

And even if multiple encyclopedias means I get some repeat info I can still pick and choose what to cite from which resource.  I.e. if they all said exactly the same thing, but I was able to glean 5 quotes from them, then I could spread the citations out over the 5 resources to help meet requirements for citing a certain amount of resources in papers.  But of course, even though encyclopedias do repeat some info, they do often say things not mentioned in others.

So you might think having two encyclopedias is worthless, but I think that's ridiculous.  I'd much rather have a good number of them.  I'm surprised someone would actually even say they are upset about having two encyclopedias (two, for crying out loud).  I hope Logos doesn't listen to you with their base package modifications.  Seems you're probably deeper in the minority than you think you are.  Granted, that's not to say the packages couldn't use modification to some degree.  But unfortunately, you seem so biased as to what you want to see in the packages (that is, not very able to understand the usefulness of what Logos has done through other people's eyes) that if Logos followed your advice, more people would probably end up complaining than are complaining now.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 9:34 AM

Unix:
who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?

From what I've gathered in my time here: just about everyone except you. Most forum regulars probably have 10-20, if not more, and are still happy to preorder yet another one. Don't do the mistake of assuming American Evangelicals study exactly the way you do.

Unix:
translations from the Gk, for example ECFs, come in late 19th century translations. Again it's cheaper for Logos, it's actually cost-free for Logos

No, it is definitely not! To produce a public domain work they generally:

  1. pay two typists to type in the entire work (unless it's a Bible, in which case they use three), after which they
  2. compare the versions and manually go over each discrepancy to see which version is correct.
  3. I would imagine they also use a spell-checker when possible, and go over those results as well, though I have no official confirmation of that.
  4. Then they have to add all sorts of links, headwords and other tags, and
  5. format the whole thing.
  6. Plus they have costs for researching what books to publish, researching the copyright status, calculating the production costs, handling the shipping, and so on.

So, no, it's anything but "cost-free". In fact, they've said that many times it's actually cheaper to pay a publisher and get access to good modern electronic files to start with, than it is to do it all from scratch.

(Back when the ECF were published I would imagine they scanned the pages instead, which they seem to have now given up on. From what I understand it was cheaper and faster, but the results were so bad that they now have huge costs for fixing the tremendous amount of typos in those old scanned files.)

Unix:
Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with that for the most part, but for a couple of the most ancient ECFs: Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome, it makes difference with a newer translation.

I believe Logos has something like 4 or 5 different translations of the Apostolic Fathers, so you've got plenty to choose from.

Unix:
Regarding the Original Languages -base-package, they could omit a few commentaries and the KJV from it

I don't think there are any commentaries in the OLL, and the KJV is the most influential English Bible ever.

Unix:
Logos is obviously trying to enice those who think of buying OL into buying the next step, a more expensive base-package, instead. But I doubt that all that many are convinced that they need a more expensive base-package, because many don't have so good skills in Gk, Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin that they would have use of more features and better expert e-books.

a) Scholar's has less original language resources than OLL, not more. It is precisely those who don't know the languages very well, or at all, who go for the higher package. 

b) Scholar's is the most sold base package there is. After that comes Bible Study, Leader's, Silver, Platinum, and Home. Only then comes OLL.

Unix:
and then hire more Mac-programmers

They'd hire them now if they could only find them.

Unix:
Someone who asks about 4 Esdras is likely to know that an English translation is included in NRSV.

Funny. You didn't seem to know when you first asked about it: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48471/359350.aspx#359350.

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 9:35 AM

Edwin Bowden:

When L4 came out, additional volumes that had been released in series that were in base packages were included in the upgraded base packages.

That was the reason for the cost to upgrade--additional resources that were added. Each existing customer was quoted a customized price for upgrades, based on whether or not they had already purchased those additional volumes. You don't have to pay for the same resource twice in Logos software. 

I recognize that that's how they did the upgrades.  However, I doubt the price that you pay for buying the resource early is totally covered by the upgrade unless they charge full price for all the items in the upgrade.  For instance, let's say that the upgrade is $200 and it consists of 10 new resources that are $20.  If Logos would ease the cost $20 because I bought one of the resources, then there would be no loss.  But if the upgrade is $100, and they're offering 10 resources that are normally $20 but are discounted with the upgrade, then they aren't going to ease the cost $20, though buying one of the resources might have cost me that much.  They'd probably ease it $10, so it's proportional to the upgrade price or some such, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I could totally be wrong, but that seems like the logical way Logos would handle this.  In which case, I would lose money by buying the resources early.  It may not be a big deal to buy just one of those commentaries in a similar case to this.  However, with more items or simply more expensive items, the loss would increase.  So I want to avoid buying any individual resources until the upgrade to see what they've added, if at all possible.  (This won't be too difficult since I'm pretty happy with my package.  But there are those particular items.  Wink)

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 10:36 AM

fgh:

Unix:
who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?

From what I've gathered in my time here: just about everyone except you. Most forum regulars probably have 10-20, if not more, and are still happy to preorder yet another one. Don't do the mistake of assuming American Evangelicals study exactly the way you do.

As the way I see it, both of you are correct.  I would say that we only need a couple sources from the same theological bent.  I personally only use four (AYBD, ISBE revised, Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, and IVP).  I would love to add the NID to give my library some balance because it is tips too far to the right.  I would love to use more encyclopedias, but I do not need anymore of the same.

I will also agree with you Unix that there is a lot of fill in the packages.  I will also never purchased one of the higher packages (I have the OL, and I do not need more of the same).

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 12:11 PM

Most customers are not forum regulars. Logos should offer different packages, some packages for those who want a lot of encyclopedias, and some packages for those who don't. I have a printed encyclopedia, and there's a few in the library. And I have a printed ethics dictionary. There are allready Bible dictionaries in the OL base-package.

fgh:

Unix:
who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?

From what I've gathered in my time here: just about everyone except you. Most forum regulars probably have 10-20, if not more, and are still happy to preorder yet another one. Don't do the mistake of assuming American Evangelicals study exactly the way you do.

I didn't realize that they re-type them as they are free online and I thought they take them from the internet. Then it would be about time that they change some of the old translations to new ones.
fgh:
So, no, it's anything but "cost-free". In fact, they've said that many times it's actually cheaper to pay a publisher and get access to good modern electronic files to start with, than it is to do it all from scratch.

(Back when the ECF were published I would imagine they scanned the pages instead, which they seem to have now given up on. From what I understand it was cheaper and faster, but the results were so bad that they now have huge costs for fixing the tremendous amount of typos in those old scanned files.)
[...]
I believe Logos has something like 4 or 5 different translations of the Apostolic Fathers, so you've got plenty to choose from.


KJV is so dated there's no need for it anymore, especially not for OL users and many users of several other packages, and yes there are commentaries in the OL base-package.
fgh:
I don't think there are any commentaries in the OLL, and the KJV is the most influential English Bible ever.

If You are going to do really serious Gk, Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin studies and are good at languages or allready know some, You buy more bundles in addition to the base-package You have, for example better Lexicons, more grammars. One of the higher packages has more search functionality that You need for searching these languages.
fgh:
a) Scholar's has less original language resources than OLL, not more. It is precisely those who don't know the languages very well, or at all, who go for the higher package.

You read that thread extremely sloppily it DOESN'T seem from it like I didn't know. The thread was about commentaries for 4 Esdras, not about regular translations. Besides, I've been interested about different English Bible versions for 8½ years, I know all of them by heart: what books they contain and in what order, year issued, some fact about each. Probably I know much more about this by heart, than most Logos users.
fgh:
Someone who asks about 4 Esdras is likely to know that an English translation is included in NRSV.

Funny. You didn't seem to know when you first asked about it: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48471/359350.aspx#359350

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Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 12:25 PM

Oh my goodness ... not the KJV too!

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 1:44 PM

Unix:

Most customers are not forum regulars. Logos should offer different packages, some packages for those who want a lot of encyclopedias, and some packages for those who don't. I have a printed encyclopedia, and there's a few in the library. And I have a printed ethics dictionary. There are allready Bible dictionaries in the OL base-package.

You cannot expect Logos to offer 100 different base packages so as to cater to every single individual.  And again, you can't say "a lot of encyclopedias" because that means something different to everyone.  You apparently think two encyclopedias is a lot.  Therefore, your whole argument falls apart.

KJV is so dated there's no need for it anymore

This is entirely your opinion.  You seem to give a lot of that without consideration of what other people might think.  The KJV is useful for many different purposes.  Even if you consider it terrible for almost everything, it can be used as a comparison against better versions.  I don't particularly care for it myself.  However, I have encountered people who have based entire arguments on biblical doctrine being inconsistent because of language used in the KJV.  I had to argue against it using other versions.  So it's good to have the KJV side by side with the others to be able to see the comparison.

Besides, I've been interested about different English Bible versions for 8½ years, I know all of them by heart: what books they contain and in what order, year issued, some fact about each. Probably I know much more about this by heart, than most Logos users.

No one here is interested in your self-glorifying boasting of your personal knowledge.  So you should probably calm down and stop being so argumentative before you say more.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 2:54 PM

Unix:
I didn't realize that they re-type them as they are free online and I thought they take them from the internet.

  1. Not all of Logos' public domain resources exist online. In fact, probably not that many.
  2. Even fewer existed at the time Logos published them.
  3. Still fewer exist as electronic files. Scanned book pages are of no particular use to them.
  4. Online electronic files are generally OCR'ed, or typed in by amateurs, resulting in files of too low quality to be useful.
  5. "Free" tends to mean that they are free for some or all private use. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are free for commercial use.

Unix:
KJV is so dated there's no need for it anymore, especially not for OL users and many users of several other packages

Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous of you decide what others need, especially when you don't even live in an English speaking country? Are you even aware that, according to Wikipedia, "the Authorized Version (...) is still the most popular translation in the United States, especially among Evangelicals." So you're saying they don't need to include the version Logos' by far biggest customer group likes best? Yeah, I'm sure that's gonna happen... Besides, how much do you think it would lower the price if they removed it? I'm guessing a few cents...

Unix:
yes there are commentaries in the OL base-package

There seem to be a couple of Bible study bundles, but I can't see any proper commentaries.

Unix:
One of the higher packages has more search functionality that You need for searching these languages.

The higher base packages have no more "search functionality" than OLL has, only more resources to search within. The only feature that is missing in OLL is the Pronunciation tool, which I guess they thought language students could do without (it can be bought as an add-on, though). 

There are also very few original language resources in the higher base packages that aren't already there in OLL, so if that's all you want from those packages it's generally cheaper to buy those few books separately, or, better, through one or more of the separate language bundles.

Unix:
You read that thread extremely sloppily it DOESN'T seem from it like I didn't know. The thread was about commentaries for 4 Esdras, not about regular translations.

I did?

Unix:
I doubt the NRSV reverse interlinear Apocrypha has 4 Esdras

Unix:
I've decided that I take the Original Languages -base-package. It includes English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts, but I doubt that it contains 4 Esdras!

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Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 3:05 PM

fgh:

There are also very few original language resources in the higher base packages that aren't already there in OLL, so if that's all you want from those packages it's generally cheaper to buy those few books separately, or, better, through one or more of the separate language bundles.

This is what I did, and I am very very happy with it.  As a matter of fact, Logos doesn't even conceder me having the L4 OL package because I purchased the L3 OL package and did the min. cross-grade for L4.  A person does not have to keep buying books if she/he is not going to use them.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 3:19 PM

Note: many sites that have public domain books on the internet have copyright privileges on their electronic form of the book. Logos cannot simply "steal" their electronic version. Logos either needs to work out a contract with the owner OR create their own electronic version from a dead tree or manuscript source.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 452
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 7:55 PM

MJ. Smith:

Note: many sites that have public domain books on the internet have copyright privileges on their electronic form of the book. Logos cannot simply "steal" their electronic version. Logos either needs to work out a contract with the owner OR create their own electronic version from a dead tree or manuscript source.

I sincerely think this is incorrect. A copyright for a book is not given to a process or a medium, only to an end result (a series of words in a particular order). The end result of a transcription into electronic format is identical in language to and, insofar as copyright is concerned, indistinguishable from the original work. One cannot claim copyright on a straightforward transcription of something in the public domain, any more than I could claim copyright on a transcription that I laboriously created of yesterday's New York Times. The copyright (or lack of copyright) transfers completely from the original to the transcription.

The only case in which this does not hold true is if the transcription modifies the original work (editing, rearranging, translating, and the like). Exactly how much editing is required before it is considered a new work is a matter of debate.

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter8/8-b.html

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 10:42 PM

mitchellisdumb:
I sincerely think this is incorrect.

While your position represents common sense, it doesn't match my experience. Note the following original publication date and copyright ntoice.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 10:42 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
 If nothing else, it's something for Logos to consider (if they read this).

Yes, we read this. But I think you're all doing a good job of making my points for me. :-)

The more expensive and valuable a resource, the more expensive it is for us to include a base package. So things like AYBD are unlikely to be added to base collections, because the publisher can get (and wants) a premium price for premium content.

FSB in particular is designed to be self-contained at "Level 1". If you click the plus signs, you get let level two notes -- also included, as is the Lexham Bible Dictionary and detailed sidebars. When you've expanded Level 2 you also get links to "Level 3" external content, which is not included. Saying it should be included, or available cheap, is a Catch-22: we reference it as the next place to go after included notes because it's great, premium content. But that's why we can't include it -- because great premium content isn't cheap. We could include everything referenced, but then we'd have to stop referencing most of the good stuff. :-)

-- Bob

 

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 10:44 PM

MJ. Smith:
While your position represents common sense, it doesn't match my experience. Note the following original publication date and copyright ntoice.

But the position does represent the law; copyright protects original creative expression, not transcription, database compilation, digitization, etc. That doesn't stop people for slapping copyright messages on things, but their messages don't change the law. (However, a license agreement that you agree to before using something might bind you.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 24 2012 11:24 PM

tom collinge:
conceder

Good job: concede + consider = conceder I assume.SmileYes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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