Becoming frustrated and disappointed with Logos 4
I purchased Logos 4 because I was told it was the best in class. I have beet trying to learn to use it now for a week, and while I like the available resources on my library, it is a very slow program (I have a MAC Pro with 11 GB of memory and plenty of processing power).
It suppose to have all the panels link so when I do select a passage to read all resources shows up for that passage. It does not. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I have look in the settings and elsewhere and cannot find anything on it.
For example, I am doing a study on Psalm 27. In the home page I enter Psalm 27 and after a delay it sends me to the Passage guide for Psalm 27. But wait.... while the Passage Guide and the Exegetical Guides are on Psalm 27 the MOST important item is not... the Bible goes to other psalms. Basically I have to enter Psalm 27 on the Bible just to get the right text.
I honestly think that is we are doing Bible study, the Bible and not the guides should be at the center of everything.
So, I am becoming a bit disappointed and frustrated with logos 4. It is probably me, but ti find information is not easy either.
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Welcome to the forums, David. Many have had discouraging experiences getting started with L4. There is a learning curve. It is a very good program for Bible study but it also it not for everyone. And it is expensive. But there are helps and if you search a bit of the forums, you will find all kinds of helps. There are free video tutorials, the wiki page http://wiki.logos.com/ . Below are some areas to go for help:
http://www.logos.com/academic/learnlogos
http://blog.logos.com/2011/03/have_you_used_the_logos_4_online_manual_its_free/
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/40022.aspx
http://www.logos.com/products/info/guides
http://wiki.logos.com/Hints_and_Tips
http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Visual_Glossary
Feel free to ask questions here on the forum. I hope this helps
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After watching Mark Barnes' videos on layouts, I've pretty much stopped using the Home Page and it's auto-arrangement (PG, EG) capability. If I'm looking up something topical, I'll start with that, but with a larger library the vastness of the search returns usually defeats any utility [that said, some users on the forum have mastered the more advanced search terms & get a tighter focus on their returns than I do].
Since I nearly always use Logos to just conduct a type of study on a range of verses or to read through a resource, I instead use the Layout that I've created for that purpose--and am happy with the result.
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I too do not use the home page (too much advertising for me). Let us say that you are not the first to state that L4 runs slow on a very powerful computer.
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Really appreciate everyones help. I do know that at least half of my frustration has to do with ignorance about the way it works. I have watched the videos at least twice and while they are informative as to what each thing can do, I think they lack context. I am hoping that the new DVD that is coming out about doing Bible study with logos will fill the gaps.
I will look at those resources, but I think my most basic complaint is speed. It is painfully slow.
When I was looking at the choices I had it was between Logos and Accordance. Logos won because it was highly recommended to me by my pastor and the resources it had. It had more for my buck. But at times I wish I had bought Accordance because is Bible centric, I can do more complex and precise searches and it is lighting fast.
But that is the past and now I have to make Logos 4 work for me.
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David Medina said:
When I was looking at the choices I had it was between Logos and Accordance. Logos won because it was highly recommended to me by my pastor and the resources it had. It had more for my buck. But at times I wish I had bought Accordance because is Bible centric, I can do more complex and precise searches and it is lighting fast.
I own both L4 and Accordance, but L4 is by far my goto application. It is well worth the time required to learn. However, L4 is much—very much—slower than Accordance.
David Medina said:But that is the past and now I have to make Logos 4 work for me.
Not necessarily, Logos does have a 30-day, no questions asked, return policy.
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David Medina said:
Really appreciate everyones help. I do know that at least half of my frustration has to do with ignorance about the way it works. I have watched the videos at least twice and while they are informative as to what each thing can do, I think they lack context. I am hoping that the new DVD that is coming out about doing Bible study with logos will fill the gaps.
I highly recommend Mark Barnes' free videos at logos4training.com. They provide much more context and information than the Logos-produced videos, and he spends more time on how things can be integrated into a true workflow.
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Thanks. I am downloading them now. I also got LearnLogos videos and see how it goes. I am sure once I get to know it and will find it all I hope for. At least it looks like a great app and it is highly recmmended by everyone I know.
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Dear David: I may well get flamed for this, but think what I have to say is pertinent to your situation.
Yes, by all means look at Mr. Barnes Videos, they are the best ones in my opinion.
Next: Yes, Logos is slow, and, at times buggy. My suggestion to everyone is to limit the program to what you are needing to do at that time. It's somewhat like "texting and driving" , Logos, like people, does not do so many things well at the same time.
No matter how fast your machine is, Logos will be slow compared to other programs. You may upgrade to SSD and see an improvement in Logos, yet, when compared to your other programs , which also improved, Logos will be painfully slow.
However, after a while, you just get used to it, you "normalize " to Logos. Personally, I had to just accept that "it is what it is" and honestly, do not see this part improving much over time.
That said, compared to doing everything through Hardcopy, Logos is still a time saver.
As some other's here have mentioned and, you brought up, there is Accordance.
I , like others here, have both platforms. Accordance is Blazingly fast, probably the single fastest program on my Mac, searches are done in "blinks" and it is "very" Bible centric.
However, there are drawbacks there as well.
Accordance is limited in Library resources, is "Primarily" an Original Language Tool. They have a good amount of commentaries, but their real focus is Original Languages and the tools that go with that. In this area, they are untouched as the " King of the Hill ".
Thus, it really depends on what your needs are.
For me, I have need of resources Accordance just does not have, thus, because of those areas, I need Logos, there is no other rational choice.
You will find many people, like myself, who need and use both.
Basic Greek and Hebrew work can be done in Logos,,ok, but I use Accordance for all heavy lifting and research because of it's simplicity and speed , the ability to do complex searches with ease. I do almost all "Word Searches/Research" in Accordance.
I use Logos for , quite Literally, everything else.
Logos is my Library, Accordance is a tool I use.
My Library is slow, my tools are fast and precise.
Like any craftsman, one will tend to have many tools, from different manufactures. Thus it is with the tools of our craft as well.
Before software , we bought books from many different Authors and Publishers. Now , as everything is going digital, we will still have many authors and publishers, but most will also have different tools for different purposes .
Niether Logos or Accordance is a "one tool fits all needs, for everyone" software ( some will disagree, both companies probably disagree).
One needs to know and understand what their needs are currently, have a good "idea" of what their needs may be going forward and make decisions according to those needs.
Packages of titles seem great at first glance, however, most find over time they only use a very small portion of those "packaged Titles" . This is not the fault of the Software company, they tried to make a package to fit a fairly wide demographic. But we all learn to get pretty specific in our purchases after that. Both Logos and Accordance have/are learning this and provide "more specific" type packages.
Thus, as someone else mentioned, if you are within your grace period, you still have options to exercise. You may want a "specific" Package in Logos and, add on Accordance for something else.
Lastly:( Not knowing if you are younger or not) , One thing I tell everyone determined to study a great deal is this: Your needs and focus are going to change with time, your library is going to grow, your abilities to use the tools is going to grow, the depth of your studies is going to grow. Therefore, understand you are building something.
What you buy today should be from a solid company that is going to allow and help you to grow your resources and ability to access those resources. In this case, Both Logos and Accordance are good platforms which should be with you well into the future.
Hope this helps. Yes, Logos is slow, Accordance is fast, Two different Tools, two different areas of focus.
Blessings.
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Dear David: I may well get flamed for this, but think what I have to say is pertinent to your situation.
Flamed? I thought your post was very good.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Thanks Todd!
FWIW, I have both tools open on my computer several hours a day each day, for me, it's like "one larger tool" . Sort of like "tabs" within a browser.
Blessings all.
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I too have both Bible programs. One thing that Logos does better than any program I've seen is to format English Biblical text for exporting to word processors. This is something I do often so I appreciate the number of ways Logos can do that. One caveat, Logos cannot format the NASB 95 as multiple paragraphs with first line indentations.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Randy
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I have a computer at the opposite end of the OP's machine. I also have Accordance, but I rarely bother with it now, because there's almost nothing in it that I can't do with Logos. Other than a few resources and features, Logos is very much on top of it.
Although the startup time is a bit long, it's really nothing when I am digging into the Word.
Just an insight from experience, Logos 4 Mac keeps getting better and faster. I can't say the same for myself, so I refrain from complaining about those extra seconds.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Thanks, Charles. very pertinent and just summarized what I have been thinking. One thing that blew me away from Accordance was their complex searches. WOW. Talking about flexible and powerful. Can that type of searches be done with Logos?
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David Medina said:
Can that type of searches be done with Logos?
Logos can do a lot of different types of searches. I suggest familiarizing yourself with http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help to see some of the possibilities. If you want to know about a specific search just ask, someone around here should know if it can be done in Logos, and how to do it.
Suggested question format: Accordance can search for X, how can I do this in Logos?
Prov. 15:23
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Logos "can" do many of those search's, but not nearly as easily and not nearly as quickly, especially if there are going to be a lot of hits/results.
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I may well get flamed for this
I can't imagine why anyone would flame you for this. That was a marvelous analysis of the comparative strengths and weaknesses of the two applications. Thank you.
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Agree based on what I have read that Charles' review is very fair and helpful. Personally don't have Accordance, but I m noting that Logos seems to also be lacking in the mapping/historical geography area. Am considering picking up the Carta bundle in Accordance and their maps resource. Can anyone comment on their experience of Logos and Accordance in this area? I have everything Logos offers in this area. Maybe I am not using it to its potential.
For my purposes otherwise, Logos is great. I am on the mission field and the portability of an extensive library is critical. And for me, I have found Logos to be VERY fast and bug free on my Macbook Air. Perhaps I'm not doing things as extensive as others? Also agree that i am still after all ths time learning of the power and potential of this program. There is a steep learning curve, but it is worth the effort and time.
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Dear Emile: Yes, Accordance goes about Maps and Pictures a bit differently, and that gives them some unique abilities. Pictures, for instance, they actually go and take many/most of them themselves which gives them some abilities others do not have spending on third parties and the contracts etc. Plus, they are recent and have different views etc than many others.
Their map overlays are very nice and again, very detailed and very, very fast.
Again, like the above post, it's really not about duplication of service or resource, it simply like having yet another tool in the tool box.
Logos does some nice things with maps/pics and many of the library resources for both companies have embedded Maps and Pictures. Accordance just gives you some resources/abilities you do not have in Logos and, the same would be true if you had Accordance as your primary, then Logos would have some resources and Abilities you could add to your tool box.
I know people tend to look at these things as "one or the other" and people want to spend as little as possible. However, it does not have to be Logos vs Accordance or anything of the sort. both of these companies have done something very wise which is to allow "us" the consumer, to build our libraries our way, according to our needs.
This was/is wisdom on their part and I hope this type of thinking expands more on both platforms. I would love to be able to "trade in" resources I do not use/need for ones I do, perhaps pay a "fee" for handling/transfer or something like that, and be able to continually adjust my library to my needs. I think that will be coming in the future by both as digital books completely take over.
But I digress. Having both platforms up and running at the same time, especially on a Mac, makes it really easy to make use of what each one does really well. Like a good carpenter ( or any other master trade ), one can then simply reach for their favorite tool for a particular part of the job one is doing. It a "win-win" to me.
Best thing to do is simply take a look, call if need be, ask on each companies forums, look at screen shots, look on youtube ( spelling?) and see who has the tools you need for your work.
Lastly: The subject of Product Loyalty. I like what Steve Jobs said about it. People vote, they do it with their money, if we do well, they vote for us with their money, if we do not, they vote the other way. ( paraphrase)
Logos and Accordance both do well, both are good companies, both have great products, so what do we do about Loyalty?
Our Loyalty is primarily to God and the work He has given for us to do, weather personal study for daily growth that affects ourselves and others, part time ministry or full time vocation, our loyalty is beyond these products. These are the tools we have to grow ourselves and help others. Thus, IMHO we do well to remember mission first, allow that to help us make "tool" decisions. I think both companies know this. Is there competition between them? Sure, but it seems pretty healthy, the type that pushes each other to get better everyday. There is no disloyalty in getting the best tools we can, to do the best we can, in all we do. Unless someone was "bashing" To my knowledge neither company has objected to people discussing the other companies software. I find that quite refreshing and think that speaks volumes about both.
So, have a look, find what works best, don't buy what you don't need, use them together, have a really good tool box. It's often been said: you can tell a good carpenter by his tools. ( plural-smile)
One last remark: For those of us with multiple platforms, should one get corrupted, go down/etc. We are not crippled. The old " not all eggs in one basket " idea. Electricity out, turn on generator type thing. So there are other advantages to be multi-tooled as well.
Blessings,
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Kevin Becker said:
Suggested question format: Accordance can search for X, how can I do this in Logos?
Converse question is Logos 4 Mac can combine a lot of morph and basic searches to highlight text. Wiki Extended Tips for Highlighting and Visual Filters has => Examples of visual filters with screen shots showing many morphological searches combined together with highlighting in Greek and English. Wondering if Accordance can combine lots of search results in Greek and English ?
Caveat: Logos 4 does take many seconds to combine, then display resource text with lots of visual filtering. After highlighted text appears, scrolling is relatively decent.
Wiki has => Getting Started with Logos with many Tips and links. Personally have learned having less open in Logos 4 is more productive along with knowing how to open more quickly. Logos 4 has some opportunities to generate a lot of work that does not appear on screen until focus is changed to the tab plus scrolling (e.g. Exegetical Word by Word section for a book or chapter).
Wiki Logos 4 Mac => What to Expect has some items to consider since Logos 4 Mac has a number of click and wait opportunities.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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EmileB said:
Can anyone comment on their experience of Logos and Accordance in this area?
The Accordance Atlas is light-years ahead of anything in Logos. Have not yet purchased the Carta bundle, so cannot comment there. Please don't ask for specifics. I am already bending the Forum Guidelines [:D]
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Thanks to everyone. While I am waiting to get the new video that Logos is putting out I decided to purchase Learn Logos and it has been of great help. most of my concerns and questions have been answered and I am finally beginning to understand it and enjoying Logos 4.
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Sorry to hear you have become frustrated with Logos 4. I just purchased it and am very satisfied with all that it can do. I have a five year old Macbook that I just upgraded to Lion. The program is very responsive and I feel it is at good as I have been told. I have no problem with it taking some time for me to master or even become competent with this software due to what I have seen offered elsewhere. I think that if you will give yourself some time and learn from the teaching videos offered or maybe attend one of the bootcamps near you, you may come to a different conclusion. What operating system does your Macbook have.
May the Lord bless all your endeavors in His Name.
Russ
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Russ, thank for your input. I am glad you chimed in because it reminded me of this thread and that in all fairness I should give an update.
Since writing this thread I have been able to take couple of courses in how to use Logos. Now I am able to enjoy and use the software and all that it offer. It is indeed a very powerful program.
But some part still very slow even on my Mac Pro running Lion. I am sure that eventually this will also be fixed.
God bless
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I have been a loyal long time Logos user and think highly of the software and the company having met the owner and his family. I have been very happy as a PC user but in 2007 I switched to a Mac and that began the compromise to remain a Logos user. I couldn't agree more with about everything with the post by Fr. Charles R. Matheny and also have become an Accordance user to supplement what I have found frustrating with the issues with Logo 4 for Mac. What is so refreshing about Accordance is the stunningly fast searches, I was conditioned to being a patient Logos user and the contrast isn't even fair to compare the two, when it comes to speed and ease of use. I have so many Logos resources (2744) I won't be leaving but my hope is that one day Logos for Mac can approach the refreshing experience I'm having with Accordance.
Blessings, Rich
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I first used Libronix and gradually migrated over to Logos. However, my journey with Logos has not been a pleasant one. Sadly, I'm also in the position of being frustrated with Logos4 and looking at the tech specs for 5 there's no way I will upgrade as 4 is painfully slow. This year I made a decision and purchased Accordance. Logos is now unused except for reading books. I create the reading list on my mac and read them on my iPad. My decision to move from Logos as my main workhorse was based on several factors.
1. To upgrade with Logos I have to upgrade my mac. This essentially means replace it and that a £1000 just for the joy of using Logos. I did toy with the idea of switching to Windows, but have to much invested in Mac.
2. Logos's upgrade packages do not work for me. I want specific resources not bundles of stuff I'll never use. I recently enquired about how I can get diagramming and arcing and was told it was part of the $3000 package and not for sale individually. This puts me off investing in Logos. I've also noticed that it's the packages bundles that are discounted rarely the individual resources unless it's pre-pub. This really doesn't work for me.
3. I use my iPad quite extensively, but Logos on the iPad is tied to an internet connection and becomes more of a reader if you have no access to the internet. Again, this does not work for me. I do not have access to the internet all the time, but enough space to download all my resources. Even having done that Logos will not search my entire collection unless I am online.
4. Logos 4 takes a minimum of 30 seconds to start up on my 2007 macbook pro. I also get frustrated that every time there is an update to resources the whole thing has to be shut down.
Having used Accordance for two weeks I am extremely happy with my switch. I do miss some resources, but my sermon prep and teaching prep is much faster than it has been. The syncing between mac and iPad is superb and I find I am able to do proper study on my iPad which is then synchronised to my mac.
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Simon smailus said:
1. To upgrade with Logos I have to upgrade my mac. This essentially means replace it and that a £1000 just for the joy of using Logos. I did toy with the idea of switching to Windows, but have to much invested in Mac.
Noticed refurbished 2012 MacBook Air models in UK: £789 for 11" => http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FD224B/A/refurbished-macbook-air-17ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5 and £849 for 11" http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FD231B/A/refurbished-macbook-air-18ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5
Simon smailus said:2. Logos's upgrade packages do not work for me. I want specific resources not bundles of stuff I'll never use. I recently enquired about how I can get diagramming and arcing and was told it was part of the $3000 package and not for sale individually. This puts me off investing in Logos. I've also noticed that it's the packages bundles that are discounted rarely the individual resources unless it's pre-pub. This really doesn't work for me.
Personally look for bundles that contain specific resources that are usable. For example, Scholar's Gold (and above) includes the United Bible Societies (UBS) translation handbook series; wiki has => UBS Old Testament Handbook Series and => UBS New Testament Handbook Series
Curious about minimum package needed for diagramming ? $ 3,000 seems a tad bit high. Seem to remember Logos 4 Gold having all features. Also, Logos posted a blog article on 16 Jan 2013: "We Messed Up and We're Sorry" => http://blog.logos.com/2013/01/we-messed-up-and-were-sorry/
Simon smailus said:3. I use my iPad quite extensively, but Logos on the iPad is tied to an internet connection and becomes more of a reader if you have no access to the internet. Again, this does not work for me. I do not have access to the internet all the time, but enough space to download all my resources. Even having done that Logos will not search my entire collection unless I am online.
By way of comparison, a 13" Mac Book Air and an iPad are both lightweight devices. Logos 5 is usable on MacBook Air, which can be used offline. However, the iPad has a noticeably longer battery life. My favorite Logos feature of visual filter highlighting is not available in the iOS mobile app.
Simon smailus said:4. Logos 4 takes a minimum of 30 seconds to start up on my 2007 macbook pro. I also get frustrated that every time there is an update to resources the whole thing has to be shut down.
Appreciate frustration of restarting Logos so can install and index resources, which am doing in several Logos installations on OS X and Windows 7 (typically at different times so can use one Logos installation while another one is indexing).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Simon smailus said:
I recently enquired about how I can get diagramming and arcing and was told it was part of the $3000 package and not for sale individually.
I'm not 100% sure, but I would think Sentence Diagramming is included in the Logos 4 Minimal Crossgrade, which is $114.95 at full price, but since you get a discount for everything in it you already own, your price is probably quite a bit less.
Simon smailus said:I've also noticed that it's the packages bundles that are discounted rarely the individual resources unless it's pre-pub.
Have you talked to a sales rep? I think it depends a bit on how good a customer you are, but my sales rep usually offers me 20-25% on almost any resource I ask for a price on. Plus the Christmas, March Madness, Pastor Appreciation Month and Black Friday sales usually include lots of individual titles.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Noticed refurbished 2012 MacBook Air models in UK: £789 for 11" => http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FD224B/A/refurbished-macbook-air-17ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5 and £849 for 11" http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FD231B/A/refurbished-macbook-air-18ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5
This is not a viable suggestion. Who in the right mind is going to spend £700-£800 just to use Logos. I would suggest Logos looks at the phenomenal amount of resources it takes to run. As a comparison Accordance run's on any system that runs OS X.
Personally look for bundles that contain specific resources that are usable. For example, Scholar's Gold (and above) includes the United Bible Societies (UBS) translation handbook series; wiki has => UBS Old Testament Handbook Series and => UBS New Testament Handbook Series
I do not want bundles that "contain" resources I want because I don't want to pay for a whole bunch of stuff I don't want. Logos needs to look at who it supplies its resources. More and more of it's offerings are in Bundles and packages some of which you cannot purchase outside of a bundle. This really is forcing you to buy what they want you to have rather than what you want to purchase.
Curious about minimum package needed for diagramming ? $ 3,000 seems a tad bit high. Seem to remember Logos 4 Gold having all features. Also, Logos posted a blog article on 16 Jan 2013: "We Messed Up and We're Sorry" => http://blog.logos.com/2013/01/we-messed-up-and-were-sorry/
This was on they're own website that showed what packages included the diagramming module, I have since rechecked and this is now available in the minimum crossgrade.
By way of comparison, a 13" Mac Book Air and an iPad are both lightweight devices. Logos 5 is usable on MacBook Air, which can be used offline. However, the iPad has a noticeably longer battery life. My favorite Logos feature of visual filter highlighting is not available in the iOS mobile app.
Again, I'm not spending more money to make Logos "work" especially as Accordance does work. The iOS version should not be tied to having an Internet connection.
Appreciate frustration of restarting Logos so can install and index resources, which am doing in several Logos installations on OS X and Windows 7 (typically at different times so can use one Logos installation while another one is indexing)./
So what you're really saying is the Logos is slow in updating it's index when resources are updated and to overcome this you have two installations. This hardly encourages me to use Logos!
fgh said:Have you talked to a sales rep? I think it depends a bit on how good a customer you are, but my sales rep usually offers me 20-25% on almost any resource I ask for a price on. Plus the Christmas, March Madness, Pastor Appreciation Month and Black Friday sales usually include lots of individual titles.
As I am in the UK I use the internet rather than phone. To be honest I've seen quite a change in the past year in how Logos sells it resources. I looked with great anticipation over Christmas which is when I made my last purchase. However, I have specific resources I need and a stringent budget I need to keep to. I do not have a lot of spare cash. I was very disappointed that the sales where only on packages and bundles or on large volumes where even the discount was out of my price range.
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I understand Simon's frustrations a lot. I was very happy on my Powerbook G4, but Logos 4 lac of PPC support pushed me into getting a new Laptop. That being said I am not sad to have done it. I am quite disappointed that Logos 4 never really seemed to leave the beta stage. I never had Logos 4 work like anything I would call a stable piece of software, and while I will say 5 seems to be solid, it is disappointing that Logos 4 always needed to be force quit any time it did not unexpectedly quit itself. For the past 2 weeks I have been using a loner machine and Logos was so slow as to be painful to use (Loner was 2010 13 " MacBook Pro with 4 GB Ram, 2.4 ghz Core 2 Duo "Penryn"/mine is a 15" 2010 MPB 8GB ram, i7 2.66 "Arrandale"). I know that i tried out a friends 11" macbook air this time last year and found Logos 4 much speedier on it than on my machine. But it is nice to have a program like Accordance which performs fast on a machine 15yo, verses Logos which needs a fairly new machine to perform adequately. I am not trying to say anyone shouldn't use Logos, it;s not ideal but I use it and am glad to, but all I am saying is I understand people who are very frustrated, to the point of leaving Logos. Logos 4 never felt like a stable app, Logos 5 recommends an i5 or newer, and while this is standard today just 2 years ago you were finding many lower-end macs without them. Personally I just hate the consumer treadmill that we seem to have been forced on (by society not by Logos in general), years ago one could be content to use something till it broke and needed replacing now we are basically made to feel if we do replace something every couple years we are so behind the times as to be practically a ludite. And this seems antithetical to the New Testament -- “Actually, I don’t have a sense of needing anything personally. I’ve learned by now to be quite content whatever my circumstances.” (Philippians 4:11 MESSAGE). Forgive my rant...
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
I understand Simon's frustrations a lot.
Likewise appreciate frustrations.
Dan Francis said:I am quite disappointed that Logos 4 never really seemed to leave the beta stage.
Also remember numerous Logos 4 Mac regressions when user interface code was being revamped, including a very disappointing stable release. Caveat: user interface code had to be rewritten due to Apple changes in XCode development framework.
Dan Francis said:Logos 5 recommends an i5 or newer, and while this is standard today just 2 years ago you were finding many lower-end macs without them.
Old electronics, especially broken devices, provide modern example of good for nothing.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I have been a LOGOS user for about seven years, and when LOGOS went from Libronix to LOGOS 4, I bought a new computer, at the encouragement of people in these forums. I7 processor with tons of Ram, and frankly, it was more expensive than I could really afford, but my daily Bible studies are very important to me. Sadly, that $1,500 Sony Vaio died after only a year and a half. I replaced it with a MacBook Pro, a refurbished one, and though it does not have the top end power of the Sony, it certainly meets the specifications required for LOGOS.
Two questions: it is going to be very challenging for me to use LOGOS 4 on this Mac. When I am doing something as simple as scrolling to the next paragraph in the Bible, it often takes 15-30 seconds to do something very basic. That operation works smoothly and easily on a mobile device like an iPad in Logos 4. Is this a Mac issue, or is it more related with the processor? Does LOGOS have to have an I7? From the number of complaints I have read, I am guessing that it is more of a Mac issue. Unfortunately, I cannot just go out and buy another computer. I have Mac software used for work, and can't just go out and buy PC software to boot.
Second question, does LOGOS 5 for Mac work better? I would not mind upgrading, but if it is going to work as slowly as it does for me in LOGOS 4, it would not be worth the investment. I understand how hard everyone has worked on making LOGOS a wonderful program, but I am really sad that a viable tool I have grown quite accustomed to is no longer a time saver in any way!
Help please! Prayerfully,
Garry
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Garry Glaub said:
Two questions: it is going to be very challenging for me to use LOGOS 4 on this Mac. When I am doing something as simple as scrolling to the next paragraph in the Bible, it often takes 15-30 seconds to do something very basic. That operation works smoothly and easily on a mobile device like an iPad in Logos 4. Is this a Mac issue, or is it more related with the processor? Does LOGOS have to have an I7? From the number of complaints I have read, I am guessing that it is more of a Mac issue. Unfortunately, I cannot just go out and buy another computer. I have Mac software used for work, and can't just go out and buy PC software to boot.
Second question, does LOGOS 5 for Mac work better? I would not mind upgrading, but if it is going to work as slowly as it does for me in LOGOS 4, it would not be worth the investment. I understand how hard everyone has worked on making LOGOS a wonderful program, but I am really sad that a viable tool I have grown quite accustomed to is no longer a time saver in any way!
While I do not have a Mac, but from I have read, L5 runs a lot better on a Mac than L4. L4's issues on the Mac was a result of L4's programming and the tools that Logos used to create L4 for Mac. From my understanding, Logos made changes on both accounts; thus why L5 runs better than L4.
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Thanks, Tom. After this struggle, I find myself very hesitant to upgrade. Would love to hear from someone who had the same issues in Mac on Logos 4 and found a very noticeable change after upgrading to Logos 5. I work for atheists in software, and frankly, they would never have released a program with so many issues. Regardless of sales and needed revenue, it simply would not be worth the effect it would have on the customer base. I am a little shocked at the different experience between Mac and PC!
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Garry Glaub said:
s this a Mac issue
Yes. It is an issue with the version of Mono used with L4 Mac. L5 Mac uses an updated version of Mono, which is not compatible with Mac OS 10.5.
Garry Glaub said:Second question, does LOGOS 5 for Mac work better?
Very much so, although some a few users still report issues. Logos is at work fixing these issues. Your best course of action is to upgrade to L5 Mac.
My Specs: 8 year-old-Mac Pro 2 x 2.66 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon processors with 11GB RAM.
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Garry Glaub said:
When I am doing something as simple as scrolling to the next paragraph in the Bible, it often takes 15-30 seconds to do something very basic.
Curious if Bible is linked with other tab(s) ? The default Logos layout from the Home Page has one link set (A) with 5 Bibles, 1 Commentary, and Text Comparison so scrolling in one Bible causes updates for 7 tabs. Text Comparison can take awhile to compare a verse with difference analysis for display.
Garry Glaub said:Does LOGOS have to have an I7?
No, caveat: Logos is a resource intensive application that benefits from fast processor, graphics, and quick storage along with adequate memory (i.e. newer hardware since Logos 4 being designed for use over 5 to 8 years); Solid State Disk (SSD) is noticeably faster than hard disk. If was shopping for Logos 5, would look for 2nd or 3rd Generation i5/i7: e.g. 2011 MacBook Air models have 2nd Generation i5 OR i7 with HD Graphics 3000 while newer MacBook Air models have 3rd Generation i5 OR i7 with HD Graphics 4000. Apple offers refurbished MacBook Air with 1 year warranty => http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macbook_air that had special pricing for some models in mid December 2012.
Garry Glaub said:Second question, does LOGOS 5 for Mac work better?
A friend is using Logos 5 on a 2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro. Having less open is more responsive. Friend had ESV and Amplified Bibles in a link set, just in case while reading ESV wanted to look at Ampliflied. Closed Amplified, then clicked "+" next to ESV, followed by clicking Amplified in list of Bibles to open Amplified to same verse as ESV. Closed Amplified tab, then showed clicking on Amplified Bible shortcut also opens to same verse as ESV. Closed Amplified.
Scrolling ESV in Logos 5.0a SR-3 on a 2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo without any links is responsive to magic trackpad.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thanks for the informative response. I have my own personal layout for my daily Bible study that includes the NASB (reading a different Bible version this year), the connecting Hebrew interlinear (this is imperative for me, as I am learning in my third year of learning Hebrew and need the daily refresher), J. Vernon McGee's "Thru the Bible," and Spiro Zodhiates "The Complete Word Study Dictionary." Yes, I linked them, and then experimented by closing one book at a time. While it does speed up without any books linked, what is the point? Instead of spending $1,400 on the Scholar's Library Gold edition of Logos 3, I could have chosen to read the YouVersion for free!
When my i7 Sony crashed, I loaded Logos 4 onto my very old Dell Inspiron, with1 GB of Ram and a Celeron processor, still running Windows XP. It handles the load much better than the MacBook, but the computer is very unstable. I can't just go buy a new computer. Sounds like my set-up is similar to the one of your friend...Core 2 Duo, 2.33 Ghz, 4 GB Ram, 10.6.8. Logos said that I could upgrade to Logos 5 for $150 without adding any books to my library. Frankly, I don't care if they call it Gold, or Hay and Stubble, but I would like it to work at least a little like it used to. Yes, in the meantime, I will try to save money for a new computer, but from the way it sounds, maybe I should have a PC just for my Bible study and a Mac for work and everything else. It seems like even those running an i7 Mac are having problems with the spinning beach ball!
Thanks for taking the time to respond and encourage!
Blessings,
Garry
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Garry Glaub said:
... maybe I should have a PC just for my Bible study and a Mac for work and everything else.
Personally have a 17" Dell Outlet laptop next to a 27" iMac that allows for Logos bug replication on OS X 10.8.2 and Windows 7.
Primary PC purpose is Logos 5 beta testing; also have Logos 4 beta and Libronix 3 installed.
Dell Outlet posts coupon codes on twitter; can purchase two or three refurbished Dell 17" laptops with 3rd Generation Intel Core i7 for less than one discontinued, refurbished 17" MacBook Pro. For Windows 8, would look for a touch screen.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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It's fairly pointless posting to a forum that then takes 18 hours to approve your post. The thread has moved on and the moment is lost.
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Simon smailus said:
It's fairly pointless posting to a forum that then takes 18 hours to approve your post. The thread has moved on and the moment is lost.
After an increasing rash of undesired advertising threads and replies (SPAM) with many frustrated complaints by Logos forum users, the posting and reply configuration is being tweaked. Am aware of other forums where every reply requires moderation approval so typical response time takes awhile.
From a business perspective, Logos wants forums to have quick responses by volunteer Logos users so we can help one another.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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{From Original Post}David Medina said:For example, I am doing a study on Psalm 27. In the home page I enter Psalm 27 and after a delay it sends me to the Passage guide for Psalm 27. But wait.... while the Passage Guide and the Exegetical Guides are on Psalm 27 the MOST important item is not... the Bible goes to other psalms. Basically I have to enter Psalm 27 on the Bible just to get the right text.
I am having a similar problem running the 5.2.1.0155 engine on Windows. I've got three screenshots that help show the problem. Say I was reading 1 Peter 3:6 and wanted to look at it in different resources, "as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening." 1 Pe 3:6 ESV For one who has familiarized himself with the NIV for decades, the last part of the verse sounds a little quirky or redundant, so one may be curious enough to look at it in other resources, such as an interlinear.
Now, as you see, when I am scrolling to that verse using the ESV as the "Link Driver" (A term used with Zondervan's Pradis) to get the other resources on the correct verse, suddenly, I am missing half the verse in the ESV, but I do have the entire verse displayed in the other resources. The "Link Driver" takes to long to change the reference, waiting until half the verse is hidden to count it as the appropriate reference (See Fig. 1):
Figure 1
This pushes users into doing unnecessary things like running a second instance of the version they prefer, thus crowding their workspace and memory (See Fig. 2):
Figure 2
Now, to answer the question, "Well, user, why not try scrolling your preferred resource up just slightly to view the whole verse?" Okay then I get something like this (note that in Figure 3, the reference has changed, and now the interlinear has jumped to an entirely different verse):
Figure 3
In fact, I must admit, this workspace for the forum is working better for me than the main program! Awesome. Get these programmers over to the Logos 5 engine to get the "link driver" to set the reference to the first ENTIRE verse fully displayed, not set to the verse that is already halfway invisible. If there is some reason other users may like it otherwise, then may I suggest putting an option in "Settings" for this. But really, I can't foresee why anyone would want the verse halfway invisible to count as the reference for the entire linked set, and do we want too many confusing user options?
I hope someone in Logos programming and implementation can see this post and let me know...
Thank You!
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Hi Anthony
As this relates to Logos 5 on Windows I suggest you cross-post in the Logos 5 forum at http://community.logos.com/forums/109.asp
Graham
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Anthony ... agree with Graham ... you'll get more attention in the Logos5 forum; people see Logos4 and think ... 'old'.
But you're correct. The issue you have nicely imaged has been around since 2009. Since I have an excessive sense of humor, I used to hold competitions as to how far off Logos would display linked verses (if I remember right, there was 1 competitor ... me!). I think the winner was 7 verses off (the error has much to do with which resources, whether they're older, etc).
As much as it's pretty obvious, Logos has bigger fish to fry. Basic Bible study isn't one of them. (Not being excessively negative; they just don't concentrate on the basics).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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With all due respect, I had limited time to make this post, but agreed to be a responsible forum user and run a "search" to see if the concern I had was already addressed. Hence, finding a similar thread.... Evidently, in the language of the ESV, I did not "fear anything that is frightening"--like making a fool out of myself over here in MacWorld, lol. Windows/Mac? Logos 4, Logos 5? Tomāto-Tomăto; Potāto-Potăto! ;-) Okay, I'll take your suggestion and run with it. Thanks!
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