Convince me: Hermeneia/Continental Commentaries

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This post has 104 Replies | 4 Followers

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Randall Hartman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 2:27 PM

No.  You don't need it. Really you don't. 


Posts 2304
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 2:34 PM

Unix:

Are You ready to omit verses and/or refer to Hermeneia when You teach why a specific passage that is not omitted in any Bibles, should be omitted? Do You expect the high-school students (who don't have and won't afford to for many years to have the Hermeneia set) to easily agree on the statements. Well on second thought probably the will, they probably see You as an authority, I think that if they are listening to such a class they must be serious for their age.

Just because I use it for research doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that it says, or even teach what it says.  The class is in public schools and teaches the Bible from a literary perspective.  Whenever issues come up, then all logical sides are presented.  I stay away from anything too controversial.  The most controversial issue that I have to deal with is when I present different interpretations of the creation narrative.  I give each one equal time, pointing out the pros and cons of each.  Once I survie creation, the rest is gravy! 

As an example of what you seem concerned about would be John 7:53-8:11 (the woman caught in adultery).  We talk about the oldest texts not having that passage, and that it has also been found in various places in a couple of the other gospels.  We talk about the issues, and then we move on.  No one's head has exploded yet!

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 2:36 PM

Garrett Mercury:

No.  You don't need it. Really you don't. 


Any reasons, or do you just think it is unnecessary?

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 2:37 PM

This is going to be sort of just a side note. Funny. I just wrote in my review of OLL today that it doesn't include Strong's and that I'm happy about that. A Bible study software with an interlinear and BDAG is a leap (supposing the question wasn't regarding a wrong interpretation of the Septuagint which the BDAG doesn't include as You know). (Or maybe this friend wanted to say that any interlinear and lexicon is inferior to a Bible [preached well].)

Joseph Turner:
"I'm not a KJV only guy, but the idea that we need a Strong's concordance [...]
Regarding Your post in general, I balance my time between studies and Church attendance. Why sit endlessly in Church and not devout Yourself with faith to the Bible - the pastor will never have time to tell You everything or even most of what it's profitable to hear/read? And I'm really not that passive at Church. I type the sermon I hear on a laptop, and later on attach it as (a) note/notes in appropriate places in my (Logos or print, my print one is smaller although I currently have more print commentaries than electronic ones if I'm not going to buy the Hermeneia Continental Commentaries bundle) library.

Well, the Hermeneia Continental Commentaries is quite controversial. Then You are probably not going to include too much of it in Your final teaching.

Take for example the omission of Mt passage I mentioned - omission not attested by manuscript finds, do You not find that controversial - are You ready for that? Or the Documentary Hypothesis (Gn).
Joseph Turner:
I stay away from anything too controversial. [...] Once I survie creation, the rest is gravy!

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 2:45 PM

I think my friend was lashing out against anything that required more than a surface level understanding of the text.  In his defence though, he has apparently been looking into the issue for a long time.  It just seems that he only reads pro-(his position) works.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 2:49 PM

Joseph Turner:
Now I am not fluent in Greek or Hebrew either, but the thought that there would need to be any deep digging to understand, or argue a point about the Bible was disconcerting to him.  My friend is very intelligent, but the attitude in many churches in the South is that your salvation is not just tied to your faith in Christ, but also your like mindedness concerning creation, end times, etc...  It is as though if you start thinking on your own or digging deeply into the context of scripture then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of satanic influences!  Once you question the Word of God (some pastors' interpretations), then you are questioning Christ himself, and that is not Christian.  That was the message of the good people from Answers in Genesis, who my church invited to speak to our congregation.Embarrassed

That is the problem with a position that is doctrinally oriented rather than faith oriented.  We are called to believe in Jesus Christ, not to accept certain teachings.  If one must accept THEIR interpretation of Genesis, e.g., in order to be considered Christian, how much else must one accept doctrinally?  If someone differs in any point, is he no longer a Christian?  This is a gnostic view that one's well-being is determined by what one knows (or claims he knows).  That is not faith yet many seem to make acceptance of their view of Genesis a sine qua non.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 3:00 PM

George Somsel:

That is the problem with a position that is doctrinally oriented rather than faith oriented.  We are called to believe in Jesus Christ, not to accept certain teachings.  If one must accept THEIR interpretation of Genesis, e.g., in order to be considered Christian, how much else must one accept doctrinally?  If someone differs in any point, is he no longer a Christian?  This is a gnostic view that one's well-being is determined by what one knows (or claims he knows).  That is not faith yet many seem to make acceptance of their view of Genesis a sine qua non.

I agree! 

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 3:07 PM

Joseph, I bought the Hermeneia Old Testament portion when they first split it up and appreciate its perspective.  I own all the other large commentary series' and found it to hold a unique way of handling the text.  The Continental Series seemed less sharp in my opinion (probably why they package them together), so Hermeneia would be worth it by itself.

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 3:23 PM

I was considering picking up this sale, but the alert about the DocHyp tripe has really made me pull up short. It is probably the biggest load of bilge foisted on Bible readers in the last thousand years. In my experience, it is almost impossible to glean anything of value from any work that is using Wellhausen's baby as its fundamental premise.

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Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 3:32 PM

The DocHypoth doesn't affect some/much of the OT reading.

@Joseph Turner: I have edited my 2:37 PM post adding a few rows of questions!

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 3:41 PM

David Paul:

I was considering picking up this sale, but the alert about the DocHyp tripe has really made me pull up short. It is probably the biggest load of bilge foisted on Bible readers in the last thousand years. In my experience, it is almost impossible to glean anything of value from any work that is using Wellhausen's baby as its fundamental premise.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.  When you (as it says regarding the Prodigal Son) "come to yourself", let me know. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:04 PM

Joseph Turner:
it IS actually more for research, since it is more for teaching academically,

Okay, you finally got to the key point. What I can tell you is that 3 different schools within the Graduate Theological Union (Berkeley) had us use Hermeneia as our primary commentary. The professors included (a) a Catholic nun (b) an Israeli professor from Jerusalem and (c) a female UCC pastor.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2304
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:14 PM

David Paul:

I was considering picking up this sale, but the alert about the DocHyp tripe has really made me pull up short. It is probably the biggest load of bilge foisted on Bible readers in the last thousand years. In my experience, it is almost impossible to glean anything of value from any work that is using Wellhausen's baby as its fundamental premise.

Since many of the volumes are translations from German, they are not as up to date as their publication date would indicate, so I would assume that critical scholars from the 70s and early 80s might hold this view, but even if I felt as strongly against the DH as you do, I don't see where that would taint the entire commentary series, and even though I disagree with the DH, I don't believe that a 3 volume commentary on Genesis includes no information other than the DH.  The Genesis commentaries seem to be highly regarded by conservative scholars as a major contribution to critical scholarship.  Glynn's Commentary & Reference Survey ranks them (Westermann's 3 Genesis volumes) among the best and Longman's Old Testament Survey ranks them close to Wenham's 2 WBC volumes.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:21 PM

MJ. Smith:

Joseph Turner:
it IS actually more for research, since it is more for teaching academically,

Okay, you finally got to the key point. What I can tell you is that 3 different schools within the Graduate Theological Union (Berkeley) had us use Hermeneia as our primary commentary. The professors included (a) a Catholic nun (b) an Israeli professor from Jerusalem and (c) a female UCC pastor.

This is good information.  Out of curiosity, what did they recommend to fill in for the missing volumes?  AB?

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:30 PM

Joseph Turner:
Out of curiosity, what did they recommend to fill in for the missing volumes?  AB?

There was considerably less consistency - often authors rather than series were recommended. But looking at the various recommendations AB, Reading the New Testament and JPS came next on my wish list.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2304
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:35 PM

MJ. Smith:

Joseph Turner:
Out of curiosity, what did they recommend to fill in for the missing volumes?  AB?

There was considerably less consistency - often authors rather than series were recommended. But looking at the various recommendations AB, Reading the New Testament and JPS came next on my wish list.

Got ya, and normally I would be more eclectic in my choices (as I always have been in my paper purchases), but since most commentaries through Logos are sold as sets, and this set is such a good price, then I may have to go all in on it.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:46 PM

Well, I my source (save the reviews on Amazon) is that I talked to an extensive Gn Continental user who studies at Uni and has compared a lot of commentaries in the faculty library and he was able to confirm that it's all about the Documentary Hypothesis and he said that it's the standard for the DocHypoth, so that's also a likely reason why You have heard it being endorsed.

Joseph Turner:
I don't believe that a 3 volume commentary on Genesis includes no information other than the DH.
For an English translation of Joseph, I would suggest investing in a 1948 Confraternity Version. It's said to be good for the t.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 3:43 AM

Watch out regarding the 4 Esdras -volume. As You can see from this page: http://www.logos.com/product/7756/hermeneia-new-testament#026
... it's bundled with the NT. So that likely means that the title regards 4 Esdras 1-12 as a Christianizied book. I oppose that view and suspect those who say that to be the same ones who claim that none of the Gospels can have been written prior to A.D 70 due to that Christ predicts the destruction of the Temple.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 3:59 AM

Unix:

Watch out regarding the 4 Esdras -volume. As You can see from this page: http://www.logos.com/product/7756/hermeneia-new-testament#026
... it's bundled with the NT. So that likely means that the title regards 4 Esdras 1-12 as a Christianizied book. I oppose that view and suspect those who say that to be the same ones who claim that none of the Gospels can have been written prior to A.D 70 due to that Christ predicts the destruction of the Temple.

And I would say that they are correct.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 4:13 AM

How come I find in the indexes of all of my print commentaries references to 4 Esdras? If the NT cites 4 Esdras, then 4 Esdras is written prior to Jesus ministry in the '30s in the first century.

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