Logos Owners' Exchange -- a good idea?

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David Medici | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jul 7 2012 7:35 PM

Has Logos given thought to creating an "Exchange" -- a kind of Logos eBay -- where Logos users could sell their books to other Logos users? I would assume that users sometimes buy books that they then discover they either do not want or do not use. Similarly, I would assume some Logos users would like to be able to purchase books at a discount. Creating an exchange would enable both parties to connect and grow their libraries accordingly. Logos would transfer ownership from one user to another (and perhaps facilitate the transaction?).

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 7 2012 7:47 PM

David Medici:

Has Logos given thought to creating an "Exchange" -- a kind of Logos eBay -- where Logos users could sell their books to other Logos users? I would assume that users sometimes buy books that they then discover they either do not want or do not use. Similarly, I would assume some Logos users would like to be able to purchase books at a discount. Creating an exchange would enable both parties to connect and grow their libraries accordingly. Logos would transfer ownership from one user to another (and perhaps facilitate the transaction?).

It sounds as though you are recommending basically that Logos consider committing suicide.  While there are occasions when one purchases a work which in retrospect is determined to be undesirable (I purchased Smith's Bible Dictionary thinking it had signed articles by some heavy hitters of past scholarship and a book on the virgin birth that I was thinking was J Gresham Machen's well-known work on the subject though it wasn't).  Logos will take back books that you don't want in the first month.  Consider that digital works don't wear out or get outdated in the same sense that a car does.  You can go to a dealer and purchase a used car, but that is an older model which has undergone some wear and tear.  Such helps the car dealer by providing an avenue for the buyer to dispose of the old to be able to purchase the new, but it wouldn't work that way with digital books.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 7 2012 8:45 PM

David Medici:
Logos would transfer ownership from one user to another (and perhaps facilitate the transaction?).

Logos charges a fee to do this already. They don't encourage it but have made it possible to transfer licenses. I believe the fee is $20 per transaction. That is $20 to be factored into the cost of each single book if sold one at a time.

Setting up an exchange would involve other costs plus the transfer cost. I don't see it being of much value myself, and would not think Logos would see this as a part of their business plan.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 7 2012 9:14 PM

I would be more interested in a plan where one could "turn in" the resources in a base package that are of no use to you in exchange for partial credit towards a resource you would use.  I suspect of number of us really aren't interested in the works related to pastors' guiding their church through difficult people and times. Of course, when I took a management class on "Managing Difficult People" I thought it was "Managing to Be Difficult People". I was sorely disappointed. Wink

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 5:50 AM

That's a great idea, MJ. Smith! Possibly with the exception that material done to 100% by Logos would yield ¢0 (there are some in every of the 9 base packages).
I hold to what You can see from http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241-post59807301/#post59807301 and http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241-post59807152/#post59807152 that I've written about carefully choosing - also applying that to all of my library, not Bibles only. I'm a typical almost Catholic Gk and ECFs -lay student, critical but with strong faith in some of the elements of Christanity. I have been atheist for a period and am Christian again since 1¼ years. I'm ready allready:

  1. The first that comes to mind is that I would turn in the Gk lexicons I have, and I desire the better one: BDAG,
  2. and Ancient Egyptian litterature (3 vols.),
  3. Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon (it's rather many volumes so I can't find that much use for them and would be perfectly happy with $2 instead),
  4. Elzevir Textus Receptus (1624) w/ Morphology,
  5. English Bible Versions (of course ¢0 back but I would turn it in in protest: the NJB is not the descendant of the JB, the CTS New Catholic Bible is!),
  6. The Explanation of the Apocalypse by Bede,
  7. Exploring Church History by Eckman (I have 2 better print volumes allready: A Church History by Paul Johnson and Christianity The Complete Guide ed. John Bowden and when I find yet another desirable volume on Apostolic Fathers and ECFs I'll buy),
  8. Exploring the Basics of the Bible by Harris,
  9. Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar,
  10. God Order and Chaos René Girard and the Apocalypse by Finamore,
  11. Great Doctrines of the Bible Volume 3 The Church and the Last Things by Lloyd-Jones,
  12. maybe Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary (if I buy a lot more commentaries. I only expect to get like maximally ¢5 back but that's enough I would turn it in. So far I have never had the slightest use of Haydock's and haven't even opened it and it looks like I won't use it, often I focus on the Gospels so Catena Aurea serves me well.),
  13. Hebrew Syntax by Davidson,
  14. A History of the Councils of the Church Volumes 4 & 5 by von Hefele,
  15. Holbein's Bible Woodcuts (it surprises me that it's included in BOTH the base-package I bought: OLL & Catholic Foundations. It's omitted only from the Home base-package),
  16. Hope in Hard Times - The Final Curtain Revelation by Utley (I would only expect to get ¢1 back but I'd be happy),
  17. How It All Began Genesis 1-11 by Utley (I would only expect to get ¢1 back but that would please me anyway since I have and/or am going to have a lot of commentaries on Gn (something like 4 volumes: Berit Olam (which I have as printed matter) and Continental) and Continental is much more than I can grasp),
  18. The Interlinear Literal Translation Translation of the Greek New Testament by Newberry (I really don't expect more than a dime back that's all),
  19. Israel's Judges (actually I expect to get 0¢ back as it's a Logos proprietary product but I would turn it in when I'm at it),
  20. Jesus Christ the Greatest Life by Cheney Ellisen (¢1 back),
  21. Jesus' Half-Brothers Speak James and Jude by Utley (¢1 back. I allready have a far better resource James by Richard Bauckham 1999 as original printed matter that is REALLY good),
  22. Jesus Revolutionary of Peace A nonviolent Christology in the Book of Revelation by Bredin,
  23. and I think I would turn in all the Lectionaries as for example the Catholic Lectionary is not used by the local Cathedral at least they don't follow the dates in it (I got pretty "angry" yesterday when I found out). The Bible passages in the Saturday English mass are not even the ones on the notice-board. The diocese has a homepage but it's updated before Saturday and I always forget to write down the passages several days in advance to be in time. (This is really devaluating the Catholic Foundations package for us who live in countries that don't follow the US lectionary.),
  24. Lectures on Certain Difficulties Felt by Anglicans in Submitting to the Catholic Church by Newman (I know it's just a teaser to upgrade some day to a Catholic Library Builder (238 vols.) which is the actual item that contrasts to the Anglican Church. Totally off for me and the reason in addition to the inclusion of Raymond E Brown items in the 238 vols. to that I didn't choose that large item),
  25. The Nag Hammadi Library in English by Robinson,
  26. Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament 27th Edition (I would expect only to get a few ¢ back. I allready have a good enough grasp of the 1992-1993 Gk NTs as I have The Comprehensive New Testament ©2008 Clontz since a year and Textual Optimism by Clarke since many years. I desire the newest UBS.),
  27. New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries ©1998,
  28. New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible ©1998,
  29. New Testament Books (of course ¢0 back but I would turn it in in protest),
  30. The New Testament in Greek (Scrivener 1881) (¢0-¢1 back),
  31. Old Syrian Gospels (2 vols.),
  32. Old Testament Survey Genesis-Malachi (¢0-¢1 back) (quite futile if I buy the Hermeneia Continental Commentaries for $600 on July 18. 2012 because I'm not interested in all books of the OT not even all included in the commentaries),
  33. Outlines of Dogmatic Theology by Hunter (this is I believe the only title I have that is "works related to pastors' guiding their church through difficult people and times." as You wrote MJ. Smith),
  34. Parallel Passages in the Pastoral Epistles (¢1 back but I would turn it in in protest),
  35. Paul's Fourth Missionary Journey I Timoty Titus II Timothy by Utley (¢0-¢1 back but I would turn it in in protest),
  36. The Significance of Salvation: A Study of Salvation Language in the Pastoral Epistles (by Wieland),
  37. Stephen's Textus Receptus (1550) w/ Morphology,
  38. The Superiority of the New Coventant Hebrews by Utley (I would turn it in in protest even if I would get ¢0 back),
  39. Synonyms of the Old Testament by Girdlestone,
  40. Writings of Saint Francis of Assisi,
  41. Zion Symbolism in Hebrews 12:18-24 as a Hermeneutical Key to the Epistle (I'm horrified that they even dare to supply serious customers with this item. Vaticanus (manuscript designation: B) omit's Heb 9:15-until the end of the epistle and it's definately not pages being ripped off but You can actually determine that wasn't there in the Bible originally, please discuss in: http://www.christianforums.com/t7635962-post60108799/ You can discuss there even though it's an old thread.)

Perhaps I would also turn in some of the images, doesn't matter how many I would get pack on each, just if I lack use of them.

It's surprising how many titles on the Apocalypse are included!

Your suggestion is great for enhancing customer satisfaction, and a better option than hiding/deleting resources! So far I haven't hid any resources as my searches wouldn't be noticeably faster if I did and somewhat few search results come up from the undesirable volumes.

An advantage Logos would gain from Your suggestion, would be a more accurate picture of what titles are desired in base-packages, Logos might even do adjustments to future versions of base-package based on some of that statistical information!

MJ. Smith:
I would be more interested in a plan where one could "turn in" the resources in a base package that are of no use to you in exchange for partial credit towards a resource you would use.
I was cautious not to buy a base package with such pastors material.
MJ. Smith:
I suspect of number of us really aren't interested in the works related to pastors' guiding their church through difficult people and times.
I hope Logos staff reads this thread, if not, please make a suggestion to Logos, MJ. Smith! (Mention people You know who support the idea and if You know that someone objects - after all it's an extra effort to select titles manually and some people might object to the temptation of making efforts only to save ¢s or a few $.)

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Posts 7
David Medici | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 12:04 PM

@George Somsel: Not at all. If, as Mark Smith says, Logos already does this kind of transaction but charges a fee, perhaps the business model could be to make the Owners' Exchange another revenue channel. If I want a certain resource that sells for a price I cannot afford the Owners' Exchange might be an alternative way for me to grow my library, for a seller to trim his library, and for Logos to make a bit of money on the transaction. A resource sold for $200 might be sold on the Owners' Exchange for $100 and Logos might charge a 10% fee. Not a bad source of revenue -- especially for a transaction that is really just a matter of electronic bookkeeping.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 1:06 PM

David Medici:
@George Somsel: Not at all. If, as Mark Smith says, Logos already does this kind of transaction but charges a fee, perhaps the business model could be to make the Owners' Exchange another revenue channel. If I want a certain resource that sells for a price I cannot afford the Owners' Exchange might be an alternative way for me to grow my library, for a seller to trim his library, and for Logos to make a bit of money on the transaction. A resource sold for $200 might be sold on the Owners' Exchange for $100 and Logos might charge a 10% fee. Not a bad source of revenue -- especially for a transaction that is really just a matter of electronic bookkeeping.

My guess is that the publishers would have to come aboard as well… plus if more users start making transfers, the fee will probably go up. Right now, the fee is just an "administrative cost," not a "money maker."

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David Medici | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 3:29 PM

All, I think this idea is worth proposing to Logos, and to that end I've sent the following email to suggest@logos.com.

I would like to propose that Logos develop an Owners' Exchange, something I suggested on the Suggestions Forum just so I could get some feedback from other Logos users. The idea is rather simple.

I would suspect that somewhat frequently Logos users purchase a product that they discover does not really meet their need or is not as useful over time as they at first hoped. Similarly, I would suspect that somewhat frequently Logos users wish to purchase a product that they believe would be of value to them, but they cannot afford the purchase price. An Owners' Exchange would function something like a Logos eBay. Those having a resource could offer it for sale, and those wanting a resource could post a want ad. The Owners' Exchange would function like a market for both groups of users (the haves and the have-nots) to find each other and prune or grow their libraries.

What's in it for Logos? Obviously you'd rather sell a library resource at full price than have one user sell his resource to another, but I think you recognize that in many cases users don't make a purchase because they just don't have the money, and in that case Logos makes nothing. I think the Owners' Exchange could function as another revenue stream for Logos. For each transaction Logos could charge a transaction fee determined as a percentage of the sale price. Suppose I wanted to purchase the Expositor's Bible Commentary, currently priced at $129.99, and suppose further that I cannot afford that price. Logos gets nothing. But suppose an Owners' Exchange is in place, and suppose some user wants to sell his
Expositor's Bible Commentary for $100, a price a little more to my liking. If Logos charged a transaction fee (say 10%), I could purchase the Expositor's bible Commentary from the other user, Logos would update the libraries of myself and the other user, and Logos would pocket a transaction fee (paid by the seller? buyer? split between both?).

In the
Owners' Exchange thread on the Suggestions Forum someone suggested that such a scheme might mean Logos would have to give the publishers a cut of the transaction fee. While I am not sure why that would have to happen (publishers don't get a cut of the sale of a used book, do they?), such a situation could be handled. In the above example perhaps the 10% transaction fee would be split 9% for Logos and 1% for the publisher. Perhaps rules could be in place, such as a resource could not be sold on the Exchange until it has been available for purchase for some stipulated period of time (the period of time being applicable to all resources, or each resource having its own period of time).

In short, I think this idea might be good for Logos, Logos users, and even publishers.

If you think this idea is worth Logos seriously looking at it, I would suggest (no pun intended) that you write them. If you think there might be problems with the idea, why not carefully think it through, devise a solution, and offer the solution to Logos as a way of perhaps getting something like the Exchange in place?

Thanks, Everyone, for your comments above.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:00 PM

David Medici, let us calculate a bit on Your example:
Original item price: $130. 2nd-hand price $100.
Now You imply that if You save $30 (130-100) You'd be glad or else not pay anything.
Well, from that deal, Logos (with Your example percentages) would benefit $9. (100/10-100/100).
The publisher would benefit a mere $1 (100/100). I think they'd want more when they're at it. But very true observation that they don't make anything on the sales of used printed matter.
In reality Logos would be funding Your purchase: You would make the $30 saving and Logos and the publisher would make $10 together.

It'll proove difficult to set the right percentages. I think Logos would need to have serious discussions with many publishers about the percantage, and the whole process would be likely to last for many years before a system would be set up. As it would be an effort for the publishers to even negotiate, I don't see why publishers who don't have a big exposure in Logos would even be interested for a mere $1 as in the example, per completed transaction. Either way someone is funding someone's studies or corporation.

Also: let's suppose the seller on the "Logos e-bay" had the item for a very short time: why be satisfied with selling the item for $100 as the cost for the seller would then have been a short-term rent for $30? $30 can be a lot for reading a book/books a short period of time, especially if it's very many pages and the seller hasn't managed to read them all.

Also, Logos is not all about reading, but also about searching. So in reality, purhaps the seller has only done a few searches with good hits in the item. $30 is also expensive for that.

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Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:26 PM

Some of it comes down tot he way Logos resources are sold. Are we just purchasing licenses for the resources or are we purchasing the resources. The courts have recoginized First sale doctrine which basically boils down to you having the right to resell physical times you purchase. The MPAA has tried to say that when you purchase a DVD you were buy a licenses to view the material but it came out that if that was the case and a disc got scratched they would have to replace it for free because you didn't buy a physical product but a licenses.

I believe that when we purchase Logos resources we are purchasing a licenses for the specific resources and the actual product doesn't belong to us, we just have a licenses for the product, therefore we don't have a right to resell the product. This happened with Amazon and one of their kindle users, apparently he did something that violated the license and it was revoked and it remove the content from his device, it came out that the ebooks he purchased were a licenses and not the actual book so once he lost the licenses he no longer had access to the books because it was a licenses and not the book.

The publisher would rather sell a licenses because they can control what you can do with it, i.e transfer to another person. It would be nice to see Logos implement lending your books to someone else similar to what Nook does or implement a subscription based service for ebooks. I usually read them only once. Amazon has done this with their prime subscription, I believe you get several (not sure of exact numbers) books a month to read and can actually download and keep 1 per month. 

Again it's all up to the publishers. The same way the Movie industry keeps fighting digital services the publisher have done the same thing. They don't want to adapt their business model because it has always made them lots of money in the past and Logos is just the point or middle man many of us use to access those books/resources so they get stuck following what the publisher allow.

Posts 7
David Medici | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:46 PM

@Unix: I don't think you quite understand. Logos would not benefit $9. Their total benefit would be $138.99; $129.99 from the original purchase of the Expositor's Bible Commentary by the seller in my fictional example, plus $9 from the transaction fee from my later purchase of the Expositor's Bible Commentary from the fictional seller. Logos is not out the original $129.99 and they gain $9 from my Exchange purchase. You are correct about the publisher benefiting $1 from the Exchange purchase, but, again, that is $1 they would not have if I choose not to buy the Commentary because $129.99 is a bit steep for my finances.

I don't see why it should be difficult to set percentages. Just as publishers do not receive fees for the resale of used books or used CDs I don't see why they should receive any fee or the resale of an electronic book. But, that is a matter for Logos to work out. It may be that publishers will refuse to allow Logos to create an electronic version of their books if they don't also get a fee for Exchange resale. Again, that is a matter for Logos to negotiate with publishers. I would think, however, that an Exchange would not be threatening to publishers. If you know anything about the publishing business, it is going through a terrible restructuring because of ebooks, something very similar to what happened to the music industry when vinyl records began to be impacted by iTunes, etc.. You may recall that Borders Books recently closed/went bankrupt because the sale of print books is beginning to be seriously impacted by the sale of ebooks. Giving publishers another revenue stream via a fee on the resale of electronic books would be an attractive idea, I would think. Think of it this way: what does a publisher get from the resale of the Commentary in a used book store? Nothing. Which would they prefer, $1 or nothing? $1. But, again, this is all a matter of the business model and negotiation.

As to why the seller in my fictional example should be satisfied with selling for $100, why not? Can you predict why anyone is satisfied with anything? That is a highly personal decision. The real question is, how can Logos benefit from the desire of the fictional seller to sell and the fictional buyer to buy? Again, something is better than nothing. How the seller gets to the decision to sell on the Exchange is not something of concern to Logos. Getting a bit of the transaction price is, though.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:47 PM

David Medici:
suppose an Owners' Exchange is in place, and suppose some user wants to sell his Expositor's Bible Commentary for $100, a price a little more to my liking. If Logos charged a transaction fee (say 10%), I could purchase the Expositor's bible Commentary from the other user, Logos would update the libraries of myself and the other user, and Logos would pocket a transaction fee

So Logos gets $10. Now why would they go for a suggestion like that when the current fee is $20, and even that isn't enough to cover their direct costs (at least I'm pretty sure I've read them say that)? You're not only asking them to forego all profit, you're asking them to literally pay for you to get the resource cheaper.

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David Medici | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 4:59 PM

@fgh: To use another example, it would be like eTrade. Sure, I can sell my stock or buy another stock, but when I consider the transaction fee I may choose not to sell. It is no different with the idea of an Exchange.

@Stephen: Agreed. Whether we are purchasing a license or the ebook is a material consideration. But, again, this is/may be a matter of the business model and the negotiations between Logos and the publisher. It is not an impediment to the concept itself.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 6:33 PM

David Medici:
All, I think this idea is worth proposing to Logos, and to that end I've sent the following email to suggest@logos.com.

David, I think it is fine that you have an idea and share it with others. I don't want to rain on the parade but no matter how much Logos users want something, the reality of getting it will depend on profitability, feasibility, and how it fits into the overall business plan Bob has for his company.

There are a finite number of people who will purchase Logos with a finite number of dollars to spend. An "Owner's Exchange"  assumes you retain the right to transfer your license. Presently, we are afforded that luxury. I suggest you search the End User License Agreement for the phrase "at it's sole discretion" in proximity to the transfer of licenses. 

The way Logos pulled all product from third party sales when it moved from Libronix to Logos 4 leads me to surmise they will never sponsor a flea-market approach to selling "used" licenses.   Just my 2 cents. Coffee

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 8 2012 6:55 PM

I've talked somewhere in the L3 versus L4 versus L5 -thread about the regular prices of L4- titles and bundles (that's what I meant even though I accidentally used the term package and was corrected about what term to use), I suggested new ways for Logos to make more money and then lower prices on some items. Logos habit to an an occasional give good/great sale instead is a bit tiresome as I would like to spend more time on other things than reading Logos.com. Then I also suggested a different approach that is a bit related to this q: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/51232.aspx?PageIndex=6

Instead of allowing a thriving new market I think Logos should consider more often to lower regular prices as that attracts all customers that glance the items on Logos.com search. I think the only hope is that Logos makes more money in different ways in order to do that. I don't think they are listening to requests for lower prices, and sales reps are strictly not allowed to give any discounts on individual titles/bundles.

David Medici:
@Unix: I don't think you quite understand. Logos would not benefit $9. Their total benefit would be $138.99; $129.99 from the original purchase of the Expositor's Bible Commentary by the seller in my fictional example, plus $9 from the transaction fee from my later purchase of the Expositor's Bible Commentary from the fictional seller. Logos is not out the original $129.99 and they gain $9 from my Exchange purchase.

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