oral tradition and the bible

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Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jul 9 2012 2:03 AM

I want to know more about the correlation between the oral tradition and the written bible, and I have found out that there are many views and books about this topic.

I just can't afford all books, and I also do not want to support any point of view by buying their book.

In my point of view, the bible is the word of God, but I am willing to understand and investigate the issues in this topic according to that view.

Any suggestions (if it's understandable, what I have written)?

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 2:21 AM

Wikipedia

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Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 4:37 AM

well I was thinking about:

Biblical Performance Criticism Series

or Jesus and the Oral Gospel Tradition

or A New Perspective on Jesus: What the Quest for the Historical Jesus Missed

or???

I already have Semeia (and I like to read them)

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 6:07 AM

Jack ... your question is a good one, but you're about to slowly slide into an interesting theological discussion. For example, I view 'oral tradition', 'copiest errors' and the OT Document Hypothesis all on the same level. For the true textual expert, each has a potential place (valid or not is arguable). But for the other 99% of the scholarly world, they're better seen as a 'crutch'. Unsubstantiated hypotheses introduced as virtually fact from which other poorly supported theories are introduced.

.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 6:54 AM

DMB:

Jack ... your question is a good one, but you're about to slowly slide into an interesting theological discussion. For example, I view 'oral tradition', 'copiest errors' and the OT Document Hypothesis all on the same level. For the true textual expert, each has a potential place (valid or not is arguable). But for the other 99% of the scholarly world, they're better seen as a 'crutch'. Unsubstantiated hypotheses introduced as virtually fact from which other poorly supported theories are introduced.

.

The worst has got to be the hypothetical Johannine community of Brown and others, treated like solid fact; or even better, the Q community, a hypothetical community based upon a hypothetical document, though you wouldn't know that reading the scholars who somehow manage to write detailed histories of these communities. And we thought the pre-moderns were the only ones who mythologized history. 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 7:02 AM

Dean053:

DMB:

Jack ... your question is a good one, but you're about to slowly slide into an interesting theological discussion. For example, I view 'oral tradition', 'copiest errors' and the OT Document Hypothesis all on the same level. For the true textual expert, each has a potential place (valid or not is arguable). But for the other 99% of the scholarly world, they're better seen as a 'crutch'. Unsubstantiated hypotheses introduced as virtually fact from which other poorly supported theories are introduced.

.

The worst has got to be the hypothetical Johannine community of Brown and others, treated like solid fact; or even better, the Q community, a hypothetical community based upon a hypothetical document, though you wouldn't know that reading the scholars who somehow manage to write detailed histories of these communities. And we thought the pre-moderns were the only ones who mythologized history. 

Please, let us not get into a theological debate.  There are many of us who do believe in Q and in the Johannine community.

The OP asked about the oral tradition of passing down information.  Can we keep the topic on Logos and oral tradition.

Thanks.

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 8:18 AM

tom collinge:

Please, let us not get into a theological debate.  There are many of us who do believe in Q and in the Johannine community.

The OP asked about the oral tradition of passing down information.  Can we keep the topic on Logos and oral tradition.

Thanks.

You're right. My apologies (p.s. I accept there was a Q too). 

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 8:28 AM

Jack Nørdam:

I want to know more about the correlation between the oral tradition and the written bible, and I have found out that there are many views and books about this topic.

I just can't afford all books, and I also do not want to support any point of view by buying their book.

In my point of view, the bible is the word of God, but I am willing to understand and investigate the issues in this topic according to that view.

Any suggestions (if it's understandable, what I have written)?

Jack where are you interested in starting your study? The Old or New Testament? The issues would be different in each case and so would the resources suggested. So knowing where you wish to start can help others point you to resources in Logos.

One suggestion is to see if any of your Bible Dictionaries or Encyclopedias have articles on the specific views you want to study. The articles should include a bibliography that can point you to other books that might be of interest (they will usually be some of the important works on the topic). Also if there is a particular book of the Bible that you are interested that has related oral tradition you could consult the bibliographies within the exegetical commentaries on that book in your library.

Blessings in your studies!

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 9 2012 8:33 AM

I just found this item that might interest You:
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1078792453&searchurl=an%3Dhorsley%26bt.x%3D0%26bt.y%3D0%26sts%3Dt%26tn%3DOral%2BPerformance%2BHidden%2BTranscript
Read about it also on Amazon.
I might even buy it myself.

Note that the volume The Case for Mark Composed in Performance in the Biblical Performance -series, has approximately 12 pages on the ending of Mk, which is 5% of the entire volume, so if that's not a crucial point You'll learn nothing that You'd find useful from those pages.

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Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 4:29 AM

I am most interested in New Testament, especially because, I think there is more literary evidence and because Logos has a new material on this topic: 'Biblical Performance Criticism Series (4 vols.)' that in a way looks interesting. Does anyone know those books?

Old Testament is not that interesting for me because I think that the research on this topic mostly is based on assumptions. I might be wrong, but that's my thoughts.

 

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 5:51 AM

Most of the authors of the book I linked to, are quoted very many times in the Biblical Performance Criticism Series.

Jack Nørdam:
I am most interested in New Testament, especially because, I think there is more literary evidence and because Logos has a new material on this topic: 'Biblical Performance Criticism Series (4 vols.)' that in a way looks interesting.
I don't think You'll find anyone who knows. I've posted the same question twice myself, a few days ago, once on Logos and once on Christianforums and I have nothing new to tell.
Jack Nørdam:
Does anyone know those books?

Some/many details in the so called Documentary Hypthesis that concerns the beginning of the OT, are just assumptions and nothing more and have more recently been discarded. But other than that I wouldn't call it assumptions to any further degree than concerning some of the NT.
And some of this has been discarded quite recently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition_history
Jack Nørdam:
Old Testament is not that interesting for me because I think that the research on this topic mostly is based on assumptions. I might be wrong, but that's my thoughts.
A book dealing with both OT and NT I've been reading lately, is: The Language and Imagery of the Bible, ©G.B. Caird 1980. It's not dated because Caird was a language expert, he knew all of the NT by heart IN GREEK. There is information about him on Wikipedia. He and his wife worked in the Revised English Bible translation team. I have this book in hardcover. You can find it on for example abebooks. This book corrects some misunderstanding and explains basics in linguistics. I've read it through once, and I am reading it a second time. I'm gonna read it a third time and make corrections to Bibles I have printed and electronic.

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Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 6:48 AM

thanks Unix - i'll read a little about G.B. Caird.

Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 6:57 AM

That's right, this is not the place for a theological debate. However, where can I find such a place, I sometimes miss a forum for clarification and enlightenment? Just to try out my point of views and read what other people think and mean.

tom collinge:

Please, let us not get into a theological debate.  There are many of us who do believe in Q and in the Johannine community.

The OP asked about the oral tradition of passing down information.  Can we keep the topic on Logos and oral tradition.

Thanks.

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 7:03 AM

You could set up a discussion group on Faithlife. Since its integrated with our libraries you can post excerpts from a book you want to discuss.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 7:50 AM

Or Christianforums.com I've become a member 2003. Discussions tend to be long. Or if You start a very specific thread You don't always get the desired amount of answer: such as the thread where I want to discuss OT exegetical versions, comparison and opinions. There are some experts over there but some of them don't have time to answer that much on the forums, such as one Bible translator who has enough to research.

The forum is free to use. Most people don't pay anything. However if You pay a $20 yearly fee You get rid of most tracking cookies and ads, and Your Private Message in/out-box is expanded from 70 to 1000 messages. If You don't pay the fee You have to use for example Trend Micro Internet Security (designed for Windows 7) very frequently, to get rid of the tracking cookies, or delete all cookies in Your browser all the time. This is just caution. I've also been using it for years WITHOUT thinking about the tracking cookies.

Almost all sub-forums there, are for Christians only.

There are a lot of different sub-forums for theological discussions + many other areas of life if You don't mind sharing.

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Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 2:29 PM

Well, if it is of any interest, as no one seems to know anything about these books soon available at Logos (Biblical Performance Criticism Series), I read a review on amazon.com about one of the books: 'The Case for Mark Composed in Performance'. It is definitely not for me!! But read it yourself:   http://www.amazon.com/Case-Composed-Performance-Biblical-Criticism/product-reviews/1608998584

Posts 33842
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 2:43 PM

There is a reading list to give a flavor of performance criticism: http://topics.logos.com/Performance_criticism It's been out there for about 6 months to give Logos users time to familiarize themselves with the topic and authors.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 95
Jack Nørdam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 10 2012 3:05 PM

MJ. Smith:

There is a reading list to give a flavor of performance criticism: http://topics.logos.com/Performance_criticism It's been out there for about 6 months to give Logos users time to familiarize themselves with the topic and authors.

Wow - quite impressive site. Somehow this has missed my attention.

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 3:22 AM

Likewise, I had overlooked this site.

 

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