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Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jul 10 2012 9:11 PM

I plan on getting Original Languages Library and Learn Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software at the end of the year. (I have no knowledge of the original languages)With my budget being approx. $2000, what additional texts would you recommend?

My interests only in adding more bibles, interlinear bibles, ancient texts and morphologies, ancient texts in translation, original language grammers and tools, and original language lexicons and dictionaries (dictionaries are my preference)

I fully realize that what I am trying to accomplish is very difficult at best, but the Bible and it's author is my only interest in life. (drawing closer is the only thing worth striving for)

I am sure the opinions I recieve will all over the board, but it will be a starting point.

Thank you in advance

Bill    

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 2:52 AM

William Gene Wilson, Jr:
I have no knowledge of the original languages)

In addition to the OL Package, you might want to take a look at Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software. No matter what the advertisement says, it it designed to teach you how to use the language tools in Logos 4. It will not take the place of a formal seminary education.

UPDATE: Had not read the advertisement in a couple of years. Happy to see that it no longer promises more than it delivers.

Posts 103
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 8:20 AM

Here is one of those "all over the board" responses you alluded to earlier.

My initial read of your post was that you wanted to read Hebrew and Greek.  Perhaps this is indeed what you wish to pursue.  If so, I believe a substantial investment of $2,000 would be better invested in a classroom setting then through books when endeavouring to learn a second language.  I do not personally know Hebrew and Greek, so I base this belief on learning Canadian French as an English person.

On my second read of your post I think what you are saying is that you want to study God's Word with the help of the original languages.  Of course, one does not require this to "draw closer" to God, as certainly there were and are many outstanding believers in the past and present without the ability to read Hebrew and Greek.  Time in the Word, prayer, and in the will of God brings one closer to Him.  Our generation is full of knowledgeable people, religious and otherwise, but it has always been a matter of faith and faithfulness that is pleasing to Him.

I personally believe that including original languages into your Biblical studies will enhance your understanding of the Word.  Just keep in mind that whether you decide to learn the languages for yourself, or decide to rely on assistance from the language helps provided in Logos, the reality is that you will be depending on the help of others to access the languages.  One way will feed you the cup of water each time you seek nourishment; the other way you will be shown how to get the water for yourself.

May your investment prove to be wise my friend!

Regards

Posts 103
mwk | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 9:35 AM

I actually had that $500 video package on my Wish List. But I realized it didn't do what I really wanted... to learn to be able to read the New Testament in Greek. Not for any specific reason... just for the joy of it.

I will happily stand corrected, but that video package is not really about truly learning the Greek (or Hebrew) language. It's more of a way for pastors or others to be able to use Logos more quickly to incorporate Hebrew/Greek into their teaching or studies. And that's great. But from what I've seen this product has been really confusing to people in terms of what they're going to get. I understand they've improved upon explaining the deliverables. But since questions are still being asked, maybe there's still room for improvement.

So it depends on what you're really wanting to do. For my goals, I probably need to approach Greek as one would any language.... learning from the ground up even though it might be a bit on the boring side starting out. (Right now I'm just at the entry-level Greek alphabet learning stage.)

I'm not completely clear on whether that's your goal or not. As someone else suggested, perhaps investing in a traditional language class might be worth considering.

One downside I see to the video package - especially at that price - is that they don't offer a sample session. I think that would help to make it more clear for people on what you're getting and what the end result will be. They do their best to explain it on the talking head videos, but people should really have the option of seeing a sample of what they're going to be paying for.

I'd just hate to see your spend so much and not get what you're truly after. Please take your time and make sure you're going to get exactly what you're going for.

Posts 2037
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 9:42 AM

So, are You planning on studying BOTH Gk and Hebrew?

I agree. $2000 is a hefty budget for books only. There might be room to pay for tuition in a class-setting.

Mark O'Hearn:
My initial read of your post was that you wanted to read Hebrew and Greek.  Perhaps this is indeed what you wish to pursue.  If so, I believe a substantial investment of $2,000 would be better invested in a classroom setting then through books when endeavouring to learn a second language.
As for what resources to buy, BDAG is said to be good for Gk. It's a lexicon. There is also available a bundle with Hebrew. These resources are not absolutely necessary for just starting to learn, as there are lexicons and interlinears included in the Original Languages Library that are much better than the worst lexicons and interlinears.

There is a cheap item that You may want to start out with: http://www.logos.com/product/20260/read-greek-in-30-days-or-less-new-testament-old-testament-apocrypha-philo-church-fathers It looks good, I'm placing an order on it today.

As for English Bibles, there's not much need to add any of those. One Bible that I recommend, is the 1992 Good News Translation.

Then there are grammars, but I don't know which of them to recommend.

You may want to learn Sentence Diagramming, and someone else may point out a reference for that!

Aply!
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 11:41 AM

mwk67:
I'd just hate to see your spend so much and not get what you're truly after.

Logos does have a 30-day return policy. No quibbles, no questions, just a credit to the card you used for the purchase. That should give you enough time to sample the resources.

Posts 1741
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 2:40 PM

William Gene Wilson, Jr:

I plan on getting Original Languages Library and Learn Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software at the end of the year. (I have no knowledge of the original languages)With my budget being approx. $2000, what additional texts would you recommend?

Thank you in advance

Bill    

While the following recommendations will not allow you to read (and comprehend) the original languages, they will allow you to take the Reverse Interlinear tools in Logos4 and you will be able to understand what commentators are trying to communicate when they speak of a word, tense or aspect. These are the texts that I purchased in my 15 hour of original languages at Moody Theological Seminary. (plus one that is just about to be released)--which should give some hint to my conservative, evangelical bent.

  • BDAG/HALOT bundle so you will have a good lexicon in each of the original languages - This will help you to understand the meaning of individual words
  • Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament bundle - This will introduce you to "Discourse Analysis" which will help you to understand meaning that is communicated in the word order, arrangement of clauses and  flow of sentences in a paragraph.
  • Lexham Discourse Hebrew Old Testament bundle - This does for Hebrew was the previous set does for Greek (it is not out yet, but based upon how good the Greek version is done I can't wait for the Hebrew to come out!!
  • New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis - The word studies and articles of the themes in individual books of the Bible will help you understand the key elements that are being communicated in the original languages. (This is a more in depth resource than the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament [TWOT] which is good, but not as extensive as NIDOTTE).
  • Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is basically a Greek version of NIDOTTE. There is a bundle that includes both the Old and New Testament versions of the New International Dictionary, but the TDNT is a little more extensive handling of the Greek in my opinion. (I have both NIDNT in paper and TDNT in Logos).
  • Exegetical Fallacies is a good reminder to protect you from embarrassing yourself by speaking as if you know more than you actually do. I use this resource to check myself to see if I might be seeing something that is not really there.

You will want to take some time to figure out how to use Louw-Nida in Greek. It will help you to identify the range of words which helps you identify why the author chose a particular word. for example, in English I could use strolled, walked, ran, moved, hurried, jogged, etc. to describe human movement. If you know the range of words that can be used, it helps to isolate the particular nuance in whatever word I chose. The most common example of this is that it is common for preachers to emphasize the different words for love in Greek (Eros, Phileo, Storgeo, or Agape). What are the nuances of these different words and do they always carry distinctions. Or in other words, when are they mere synonyms and when is the nuance being intentionally used? 

With these resources, I do not do my devotions in the Original Languages or feel like I am qualified to write a Hebrew commentary or publish my own translation, but I do feel empowered to interact with good commentaries and can glean insights that would be missed if I were restricted to English translations. I hope this helps.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 3:12 PM

William Gene Wilson, Jr:

I plan on getting Original Languages Library and Learn Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software at the end of the year. (I have no knowledge of the original languages)With my budget being approx. $2000, what additional texts would you recommend?...

Let, me be the first to congratulate you on selecting the best Logos base library!

If, you have not already purchased that Library, my advise to you is to enroll in RTS (Reform Theological Seminary)'s Virtual campus'  online Hebrew class with Futato. Because, his course requires a Logos base-package if you enroll in it you will be able to get Logos4 for 50% off the normal price. And more importantly you will be gaining to resources or rather skills; one a basic working knowledge of classical Hebrew and two a course teaching you to use Logos for research. 

"Course Purpose
To encourage you in enjoying an abundant life to the glory of God!

Course Goal
To facilitate your success in acquiring a basic knowledge of Hebrew grammar and essential
skills in the use of Hebrew, so that you can study and teach the Hebrew Bible with greater
depth and accuracy and enjoy a richer life."

Check out the Course Syllabi:

Intro to Biblical Hebrew (with Logos)

http://www.rts.edu/Site/Academics/docs/syllabi/Virtual/Heb_I_Futato-Moodle.pdf

 

Grace and Peace

 

 

 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

Posts 1741
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 3:29 PM

BKMitchell:
If, you have not already purchased that Library, my advise to you is to enroll in RTS (Reform Theological Seminary)'s Virtual campus'  online Hebrew class with Futato

I would concur that this is good advice. Yes Moody Theological Seminary also does a modular version of this (do pre-class work online, attend class for a week, then do post-class work) but the Hebrew I class is not offered as frequently as it looks like RTS does.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 11 2012 3:44 PM

Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary also offers Hebrew and Greek via Distance education and online.

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/semlink/documents/semlink_ol501_syllabus.pdf

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/semlink/Division-of-Biblical-Studies.cfm

Of, course if the original poster lives near a seminary, university, college, or community center that offers Hebrew or Greek that may even be better. 

Anyway thanks I did not know that Moody Theological Seminary offered Hebrew this way, although I have seen some of their course modules being sold at Logos.com.

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 12 2012 11:26 AM

Trinity Southwest University in Albuquerque also offers Greek and Hebrew, with completely off-campus options. It is very affordable (I think you could probably arrange a certificate program in Greek or Hebrew for about $1K each, if credit towards a degree isn't an issue for you). I am looking to sign up to take a "refresher" after having formally studied some 25 years or so (at a different, more traditional institution)! I've forgotten most of what I knew from lack of use. I think Trinity's course offerings will be exactly the help I need, esp. supplemented by Logos. 

www.trinitysouthwest.com

Posts 9925
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 12 2012 11:48 AM

William ... you surmised the answers might be 'all over the board'. Okie dokie.

I'd strongly suggest you think about learning russian (I picked that only because it's 'far away'; Chinese, Japanese, anything that has a differing alphabet/character group, and you can't decipher it).

Then imagine getting a book on Russian to learn it. Or indeed videos. Or indeed some Americans (where I am anyway) to teach you Russian.

What do you have? You can now read and maybe even speak Russian.

But do you 'know' russian. Don't think so. You'd have to ALSO become very familiar with the background to the culture and the background to the language.

You mention a comfort level with ancient texts (good), grammars (good), lexicons (good) and dictionaries (all good). But you seem to shy away from the tremendous expertise in the background to what you're looking at. Just like the Ethiopian eunuch; he could easily read and speak. Very likely both greek and  aramaic. That's why 'somehow' you also need resources that bring in various background experts. Often commentaries, sometimes collections, whichever you're comfortable with. They don't have to be theological. Look for the word 'critical'. And maintain your own independence.

A good example? Take the greek word 'ecclesia' or the english word 'church'. Is it instead 'congregation' or even 'gathering'? And why does that matter? Because it does matter.


Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 12 2012 11:50 AM

William Gene Wilson, Jr:

My interests only in adding more bibles, interlinear bibles, ancient texts and morphologies, ancient texts in translation, original language grammers and tools, and original language lexicons and dictionaries (dictionaries are my preference)

If you want to know the original languages, then you DO NOT want any interlinear bibles.  I will even say this.  If all you want to do is to study the language, you do not want Logos.  What you want is BibleWorks because BibleWorks only does the original languages (and is much cheaper and faster).  If you want to do more with your study, than Logos is the way you want to go.  Check the many postings about the advantages of Logos and of BibleWorks on their websites.  Each tool is different (I have both) and have different strengths.

You will also want to add BDAG & HALOT

Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 12 2012 11:50 AM

Thank you for your prompt response and I must apologize that, more often than not, my communication skills are lacking. (my wife soon realized after our marriage that what she heard is not neccesarily what I said) I fully agree that being fluent in the original languages does not "get me where I want to go" . Choosing this path one has to tread lightly because of the dangers involved. ("Do not add to or subtract from my Word")

Your E-Mail is well thought out and written. Your counsel is is sound, and it would be wise to take it into consideration. 

Thank you for your time and effort

Bill

Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 12 2012 12:28 PM

The only reason Iwould consider getting "Learn to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible software" is because if you are going to invest in a tool, you need the knowledge to use it correctly. (you do not buy a hammer so you can go out and break rocks) I invested in Bibleworks 2 years ago but I am NOT using it in its full capacity.

I fully agree with you about taking the place of a formal seminary education. While I am very uncomfortable taking that step, it is one of those things that either you jump in with both feet , or you stay on the porch.

I fully appreciate your time and effort in replying to my e-mail

Bill 

Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 12 2012 1:27 PM

Bible software is a tool, to get the most out of that tool you must learn how to use it correctly. I have had Bibleworks for years, but on the whole I am not using it to its full potential. Simply put, I want to learn more about the original languages just because I have the need to learn such things. Will investing $500 help me get the most out of Logos, you tell me.

But sooner or later I am going to have to bite the bullet and go to class, online or in person.

Thank you for your time and effort in replying to my post

Bill 

Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 12 2012 11:53 PM

 Thank you for your concern, I have allready been down that route. I bought Bibleworks years ago (along with a boat-load of modules) I use the software but I do not have the knowledge to use it fully. (I was hoping that getting Logos and the $500 of teaching tools would help me with the Bibleworks software. I have also gave away a couple boxes of books that "was not my cup of tea". I see some classes in my future, although, in all honesty I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack.

Thank you for your time and effort to reply to my question

Bill

Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 13 2012 12:14 AM

I see we have the same tastes, I bought Bibleworks years ago and got the Bdag/Halot bundle along with TWOT, EDNT and TDNT) I also have the New International Dictionary collection in hardback. (although those lexham discourses "sound like a keeper"  If I get my act together, I want to run both Logos and Bibleworks together. (but running them both will require quite the computer)

You have just illustrated WHY I want to learn original languages. I might not ever be proficient, but "the search for treasure" is to great to ignore. I see classes in my future - if I truly want to do this that is the path I MUST choose.

Thank you for time and effort in answering my questions and sharing some insight

Bill

Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 13 2012 12:26 AM

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I knew they were out there, but I had no clue on which one. I have ALWAYS been interested in the original languages - but none of the books I have recieved has helped. (but in all honesty, it was my fault, not the authors)

Thanks again for showing my path

Bill

 

Posts 20
William Gene Wilson, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 13 2012 12:35 AM

I stand corrected and will take your advice

Thank you

Bill

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