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Posts 847
Praiser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 13 2009 10:35 AM
          I agree with Mark Swaim's reply as follows:  One thing that concerns me...IF cloud computing is the wave of the future, will Logos continue to provide support for those of us who spent much on  the purchase of books to make sure that as technology advances, we will continue to be able to load up Libronix and our resources on PCs. Will Libronix work on Windows 20 or on Open source?  Because as people have already written, I can accept cloud computing as an option.  But if Logos goes to the clouds and stops giving us the option of purchasing our own books, then I would stop investing in resources.

I feel the same way. I have invested ALOT in the software that I have and have lots more on PrePubs. The internet connection where I am at is not without problems. I like the fact that my books are on my hard drive, accessable whenever and anywhere I want since I take my laptop with me. That is why I purchased Logos in the first place and continued to add onto it. I am not sure that I would be willing to even pay for a cloud option at this time. I am very satisfied with using it on my laptop. Besides, wouldn't there be an ongoing access fee attached to the cloud computing? I don't have additional fees with my software, I can stop spending anytime I want and still have what I have invested in.

I believe the majority of the users like having their software on their hard drive.  I don't mind the idea of making the cloud an OPTION, but it would not work for me as the only way to access the Logos books.

I "want the power, speed, and 'don't need Wi-Fi' access of an offline application."

I do not believe that it would best serve your current customers to switch to cloud computing only if that is where you are contemplating going. I believe Logos to be a company that will continue to give us what we paid for and will continue to build on the hard drive installation software and improve it as they have in the past. That's what I love about Logos!

Please keep the "rich client" applications coming. I'll keep installing them with joy and without complaint.

Absolutely looking forward to Version 4  Big Smile

 

 

Posts 101
Dan Langston | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 24 2009 7:10 PM

I agree that having one's library on their machine is highly preferable to the cloud.  What is already offered with bible.logos.com and reftagger have highly exceeded expectations for an online user.  Honestly, what would anyone (who isn't a bible software fan) who opened a Bible online want?  copy and paste, look up a verse reference, insert into a blog....BAM!  Reftagger and bible.logos.com already do it.  The rest of the world is going to push logos.bible.com and biblegateway for what they want and do minimal study.  Those of us who want books, books, and more books with prayer lists, keylinking, information windows, and visual markups be content and thankful to have it at our fingertips whether we are online or not.

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 24 2009 7:35 PM

Bob Pritchett wrote:

"Are you ready for your Bible software to live "in the cloud?"

Nope, personally speaking, I'm not!

Bob Pritchett wrote:

"Would an online offering help us reach a bigger audience of Bible students?"

Probably would, but I still prefer having my own software loaded on the drives in my own computers. I wouldn't want only option for Logos, or any other software for that matter, to be solely available in an online cloud set-up. Must be my quasi-geeky, OCD personality or something. Wink

Debra

Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro

Posts 401
Timothy Ha | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 24 2009 9:14 PM

I would like to have my books purchased through Logos available online to work in a browser, from an address like my.logos.com :-)

Perhaps something like Google Gears may help a seamless switch between offline and online mode for a Web-based Bible study tool.

However, I don't believe that Javascript can perform fast searches in local encrypted texts.  Server-side search can do it very fast, of course.  But the offline mode would be slow.

But if ordinary Logos engine is installed on the PC, it may work as an offline server for searching and other complicated tasks.

JesusChrist.ru - Russian Christian Portal, with free Bible software; Timh.ru - blog

Posts 32
Colby E. Kinser | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 6:37 AM

I still don't understand why the discussion is in terms of "either/or." There's no need for that. It can easily be both/and.

Another advantage to the cloud solution would be a really easy way to "rent" books. There are many times when I wanted something out of a book in the Logos library, but didn't need it enough to purchase it. If I could rent it with an expiry date, I would use it. It would be financially worth it for me on certain books. I don't know if that would increase revenue for Logos across their user base, but it would increase their revenue from me. 

I could even envision subscription packages which would generate a constant revenue stream. Different level packages would give you longer rental periods and access to more valuable books. I would pay for that, too.

Posts 98
Ed Blough | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 9:45 AM

Bob Pritchett:

"3. They prefer another program -- hard to believe, I know."

To the best of our knowledge, we're the best selling product in the category by a wide margin. Our biggest competition is "no software." I don't know if that means online resources only, or just paper books, but there are lots of pastors (and seminary students, apparently) who still aren't using Bible software.

I'm just wondering if the "software" part of that question is the obstacle for some of them...

Let me give you what I think is the answer to your questions above. Many Pastors do not need many of the features Logos/Libronix offers, in fact many get along satisfactorily with just a concordance.  I think the biggest stumbling block for many is easy manipulation of the info they do have available.  A pastor may want or need the whole verse in one instance and just referrences in another.  They may just want to supply a list related verses. I believe the less they have to do to get this from Bible software program to their message platform the better.  It is like citations there are times I want or need a referrence for where I getting quote and other times I don't need it.   Logos gives me tons of info but many times I find myself overwhelmed trying to figure out to incorporate even a small part of it in the format I want.

As for having the program up in the clouds I think I might be like many other that do a good part of my preparation on the weekend, and weekend is lousy time to find help if I need it. So I would always want a copy on my computer just in case the ISP provider has a problem.

Lastly I think cost is huge factor in why many pastors and students aren't switching to software mode.

As a side to this I think the present method of forcing a complete installation of programs when upgrading ones computer is costing the computer industry in general tons of money.  I'm a perfect example if I could simply copy my present hard drive to a new hard drive on a new computer that contained the lastest operating systemI would probably upgrade every two years or so.  But right now my computer about 5 years oid and  while I would love to have a new computer I don't need the hassle of collecting all my program disks, doing a new install on the new computer and then have to do all the online regisitrations, automatic upgrades, and moving stuff around to get it where I want it that is now required.  The only reason I go to a new computer now is when mine crashes to the point I have to do reinstalls of everything, at that time I simply upgrade.  

 

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 11:30 AM

EdBlough:
The only reason I go to a new computer now is when mine crashes to the point I have to do reinstalls of everything, at that time I simply upgrade.  

I hope you keep your backups at hand. I do after experiencing 2 harddisk crashes in 2 months on my Dell laptop Sad

Bohuslav

Posts 10548
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 11:34 AM

EdBlough:

As a side to this I think the present method of forcing a complete installation of programs when upgrading ones computer is costing the computer industry in general tons of money.  I'm a perfect example if I could simply copy my present hard drive to a new hard drive on a new computer that contained the lastest operating systemI would probably upgrade every two years or so.  But right now my computer about 5 years oid and  while I would love to have a new computer I don't need the hassle of collecting all my program disks, doing a new install on the new computer and then have to do all the online regisitrations, automatic upgrades, and moving stuff around to get it where I want it that is now required.  The only reason I go to a new computer now is when mine crashes to the point I have to do reinstalls of everything, at that time I simply upgrade.  

Ed

You make me so happy that I have always owned Macs Cool. All I need is a firewire cable between the old machine and the new one.

Jack

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 11:38 AM

JackCaviness:

Ed

You make me so happy that I have always owned Macs Cool. All I need is a firewire cable between the old machine and the new one.

Jack

Hmm... may be it is time for me to convert? But i will definitely wait till I see what comes out from Logos version 4. If it would really get to the same level, I might do that.

Bohuslav

Posts 50
Ron Newberry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 1:31 PM

i prefer to have my stuff on my computer.  i think there is too much dependance on the internet.  the techonology is not foolproof.

Posts 2331
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 7:15 PM

One of the "non-negotiable" criteria for me when I was researching Bible software a couple years ago was to be free of the Internet.  I frequently am out of town and take my laptop with me.  The ONLY thing I use my laptop for is biblical research and writing.  It has never been online and anything downloaded to it is virus scanned.  I like the ability to use Logos without being connected to the Internet.

If Logos does develop an online access to their resources, I hope they continue to make their software accessible without having the Internet.  Any resources that are just available online I will avoid.

About 8 years ago I was researching Mormonism and purchased a software program.   I can still access it, but new customers are limited to just online content.  I don't want to see Logos travel down this road.

From a business standpoint it is probably wise to have web access to their resources as this seems to be the direction preferred by many of the younger generation.   But I hope those who prefer to stay offline are not abandoned by Logos.

As for the last sentence, I don't believe this will happen.  Logos has done an excellent job at taking care of their customers, and I believe they will continue to do so.

 

Thanks for listening.

Ron

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 8:47 PM

Praiser:

I do not believe that it would best serve your current customers to switch to cloud computing only if that is where you are contemplating going. I believe Logos to be a company that will continue to give us what we paid for and will continue to build on the hard drive installation software and improve it as they have in the past. That's what I love about Logos!

Please keep the "rich client" applications coming. I'll keep installing them with joy and without complaint.

Absolutely looking forward to Version 4  Big Smile

I tend to agree regarding the continuance of the rich client applications.  Today I did, however, receive an invitation to download a PDF on cloud computing from Sun Microsystems since I had downloaded their Open Text.  I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it, but I somewhat doubt it will change my viewpoint.  If someone else is interested, I could probably send it to you, but I don't think it would do much good to have me give out the URL since they require registration prior to download (and the form was partially filled out when I entered the site).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 8:47 PM

Praiser:

I do not believe that it would best serve your current customers to switch to cloud computing only if that is where you are contemplating going. I believe Logos to be a company that will continue to give us what we paid for and will continue to build on the hard drive installation software and improve it as they have in the past. That's what I love about Logos!

Please keep the "rich client" applications coming. I'll keep installing them with joy and without complaint.

Absolutely looking forward to Version 4  Big Smile

I tend to agree regarding the continuance of the rich client applications.  Today I did, however, receive an invitation to download a PDF on cloud computing from Sun Microsystems since I had downloaded their Open Text.  I haven't yet had the opportunity to read it, but I somewhat doubt it will change my viewpoint.  If someone else is interested, I could probably send it to you, but I don't think it would do much good to have me give out the URL since they require registration prior to download (and the form was partially filled out when I entered the site).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 28
Scott Edgren | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 25 2009 10:03 PM

Although I see the trend as moving more and more to cloud computing, and I am doing more of it than I used to, I really like the rich-client approach. For something as important to me as my Bible study software, I want it on my own computer. I teach theology in Ecuador, South America. When I am at home I have internet access that is really good, but when I am traveling to different centers to teach or for other ministry, there simply is no internet available to my computer. Wireless access is hardly ever available here like in the US. And I don't think it ever will be because of cultural issues. It's for the same reason that there aren't buffets here--everyone would just take advantage of it. So that means for me to have access to software in the classroom and many other places I need it installed on my computer.

Another consideration for me is that owning a program on CD seems a lot more permanent. I don't expect Logos to go out of business, but... if it were ever to happen I have the confidence that as long as I have a computer that can run the program, I will have access to Libronix, my current resources and at least the current state of the program. Don't get me wrong: I am also very excited that it is going to continue to improve because of the stability and commitment of Logos for the long haul.

I have another interesting observation about what happens here in Latin America, however. Almost none of my students have their own computer. There are internet cafes all over the place and it is very economical to use them. Buying a computer is cost prohibitive for most people. That means that as much as I would like to encourage them to buy a copy of Libronix, it isn't going to happen if they don't have a computer. If they were able to access the program over the internet, I could see more of my students considering a purchase. And yet, it would have to be offered for a much cheaper price than what is currently the case in order to get many sales.

In Ecuador it is very hard to control copyrighted material. There are simply very few people who think twice about photocopying a book, pirating DVDs, or copying computer software. If you sell Libronix as an internet program, you need to be aware that there would probably be plenty of sharing of the account. That is, several users would probably log in to use the same user account. Just an observation to consider. If that is a problem, you need to think creatively about how to control it.

Hope this helps,

Scott

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2009 12:48 AM

 

Scott Edgren:
Another consideration for me is that owning a program on CD seems a lot more permanent.

Yeah, they make great ornaments for dangling on your rear view mirror.

I still have some CDs kicking around here that contain what used to be very cutting edge games. I can't play them anymore because they require a version of quicktime that was constructed from flint, willow sticks and twine.

Yours in Christ

John

Posts 14
Jeff Lindell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 26 2009 12:07 PM

After including my own thoughts and following the forum for a while, I hope now to actually answer your question from my perpspective and from what I am hearing.

Bob Pritchett:
But are we missing the boat on the next generation of users? And are even us die-hard-big-iron types getting tired of installing apps? Are you ready for your Bible software to live "in the cloud?"

Are you missing the boat.  As a 34 year former youth pastor who worked with kids for 10 years, I don't think you are.  You mentioned about your son:

Bob Pritchett:
I have always said that you still need rich client applications for things like Word processing, spreadsheets, etc. and that online solutions like Google docs won't work. But my son does all his schoolwork in Google docs and rarely uses Microsoft Office.

Note that any movement in that direction is a movement away from rich client applications.  Creating a rich client web application is not likely going to appeal to these types of people, since they are ones who have come live without them.  If on the other hand with Google's new up and coming operating system they move to a more feature rich platform that is in the cloud and it becomes the rage, then I would say you have your answer, but within the present context of the computer world, most people are used to having to either download software or install it with a disk.  

I am an avid backpacker and generally there tend to be 2 types of philosophies, those who carry a lot of weight and are willing to do so because of the amenities they gain from it vs. the ultra lights who go for a minimalist approach because of simiplicity and ability cover more ground.  If you in one camp your not in the other.  It seems pretty compatible to the discussion.  If you have an audience that is taking a minimalist approach, they probably won't be all that interested in a rich client web-based application.  Why?  They would likely be more interested in something like bible gateway, something that will give them some cross references and maybe a shorter commentary to read.  This then lead leads to the next questions you raised:

Bob Pritchett:
And are even us die-hard-big-iron types getting tired of installing apps? Are you ready for your Bible software to live "in the cloud?"

From those who responded, it seems that the answer is generally no.  The brutal undertaking of moving to a computer and all the instalization all our software is worth it for us to then have the features for the next few years.  Yes, I do dread halling that load, as my computer recently crashed.  The hard drive was salvaged, and I spent the next week slowly getting myself up to speed, and logos was the first thing I uploaded.  In part I think what would hinder me and people who prefer the rich client approach is speed.  If you were to tell me that you could create a web-based rich client logos just like I have been using only which could actually operate in the cloud as fast as my computer, then you have would have my attention.  I have already switched to using google calendar and gmail ditching ms outlook, but I did it because I ended up with more features and not less, and of course now I can access it on any computer and they are both one less thing I need to install when getting a new computer.  So yes, I am tired of intalling apps, but I would do it in a heart beat to keep a rich client app that is quick and gives me all the tools I want.  For example the notes feature is a must for me.  I am considering moving to a mack, but one of my chief decisions in that process will be in regard to how the new logos mac software developes an update for notes.  If can't upload years worth of Bible notes that I have made, then all those would go down the tube for me.  The same would be true of a web-based logos.  Most likely us die-hard rich client guys are going to stay that because there is just too much to lose.  

That's my 2 cents.  Hopefully it's helpful, or you get some better insight. :-)

Jeff

Posts 1
Victor Cullars | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2009 10:00 AM

I prefer to have the local client version with the web based online version as an option. Another option I would like to see is a scaled down module that would allow mw to import one of my bibles, commentaries, prayer and bible study module onto my IPOD or IPhone. This would be very useful when traveling as a lot of times digging out my laptop is very disruptive and I always have my IPOD on my belt. Another neat feature would be to add an audio translation module that could read the text for the visually impaired. Just some suggestions. Have a blessed day <><

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2009 11:38 AM

Victor Cullars:
Another neat feature would be to add an audio translation module that could read the text for the visually impaired. Just some suggestions. Have a blessed day <><

If I understand correctly what you mean, we have already a speech addin in the beta version of Logos. It works good, I use it while driving a car. It would need some improvements, like following the read text, so that we know were we are in the book, after we stop reading.

In the future iPhone version of Logos it would be great to have also this feature. Using notebook while driving a car is not the best solution IMHO, it might be even risky to cause a hard-disk crash, I think (if it is not a SSD disk).

Bohuslav

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2009 1:10 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

In the future iPhone version of Logos it would be great to have also this feature. Using notebook while driving a car is not the best solution IMHO, it might be even risky to cause a hard-disk crash, I think (if it is not a SSD disk).

Hard disk crash?  How aboiut a hard car crash? Sad

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 27 2009 1:23 PM

George Somsel:
Hard disk crash?  How about a hard car crash? Sad

Well, actually you are right. In a situation when you need to use brakes suddenly (we drive  a little bit more crazy here in Europe than you in the US) and when you try to catch your notebook flying in the air, anything can happen (it didn't end up with the "hard car crash", glad to say, just with too many things to do in one second). Since such an experience I started to put my notebook into the front seat pocket in the back. I use a longer cable to connect notebook to the sound system in the car and it works well. iPhone reading of the Logos books however would be much safer than using notebook.

Bohuslav

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