Logos Is Too Expensive

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Posts 14
Joel Reed | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jul 28 2012 4:43 PM

I have been researching some of the 'Bible Software' packages that are found on the market, and I have to say that Logos appears to be the best available. That being said it is also the most expensive software available! I am also disappointed to see Logos watering down their products by offering nearly ten different packages, especially when the first four software packages are so useless. (I.E. Christian Home, Bible Study Library, Leaders Library, and Original Languages) In my opinion the first package that should be offered is the 'Scholars Library' ...  I simply can't see any reason why Logos would be so stingy with their products. Is it just me or would it make a lot more sense for them to release their software as 'Bronze, Silver, and Gold'. (With the option to buy the portfolio) I looked at the comparison chart, and the first four packages are so striped down they don't even seem to be worth the already outrageous price they are listed at. Come on people, you can download a variety of far more complex software like 'Libre Office' completely free, but we can't seem to find reasonably priced Bible software to help us grow in our faith? 

I'm sorry to say that something is simply not right with this world. I understand the fact that you have to make a profit in order to keep your feet on the ground, but charging over $600 for a beginners package seems a bit out of line. 

I seriously hope you folks will reconsider your pricing strategy, because I am sure you would sell a lot more copies if you weren't asking so much money. It is actually quite easy to find most of the books you offer in the software on eBook websites for free, since most of the books you carry are no longer copy-written.  (E.g. The Bibles, Luther, Bunyan, etc) It bothers me to read the section on your website that says 'Over $10,000 in Print!' when that is simply not true. If you have to renegotiate with some of the Authors, please do so, because this is simply ridiculous.

Posts 10246
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 5:05 PM

Joel, welcome to the forums. I doubt you are that much in the minority.

But the details are important. I have the OL simply because it had a specific resource no one else had at the time, along with some of the Logos tools. Had no need for 'scholars' etc. So Logos saved me money. Quite affordable for what I wanted.

Then there's the  bottom 3 packages. Again hard to say. Is everyone like you? I don't really know (not joking).


Posts 5564
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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 5:23 PM

Joel Reed:
I'm sorry to say that something is simply not right with this world. I understand the fact that you have to make a profit in order to keep your feet on the ground, but charging over $600 for a beginners package seems a bit out of line. 

If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. Really. Maybe Logos isn't for you. It may not be for everyone.

That said, there's a reason that Logos prices are higher than some of their competitors, and that has to do with outstanding customer service, highly tagged and even cross-tagged resources, and a research environment (for studying the Scriptures and other materials) that is unparalleled. I have some books on my Kindle that were dirt cheep. I'd much rather have them in Logos for 3X the price, because they would be so much more usable to me in Logos.

Another way to look at these is to take one of the packages you're considering and only look at the cost of the resources in that package you want (don't even count the value of the resources you wouldn't buy). Add up the cost of those in hard copy or in some other Bible software package. For me, the cost analysis told me I'd have a substantial savings buying one of those high end packages. But it may not turn out that way for you.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 5:39 PM

Joel Reed:
the first four software packages are so useless. (I.E. Christian Home, Bible Study Library, Leaders Library, and Original Languages

I started out purchasing separate resources that interested me since they had a super sale on at the time.  Eventually I moved to the Original Languages package.  While the OL needs some supplementing in grammars and lexica (notably BDAG [don't open your bible study program without it] and HALOT [you could conceivably to with this since BDB is still quite useful]), it really isn't a bad starter package.  I wouldn't mind seeing them remove the TDNT and putting BDAG in its place.  Anything lower than OL is not for someone who has training in biblical studies in my opinion.  If you start out with OL, you will get credit for what you already own if you upgrade—especially if you pick up the phone and call a sales rep.  Many have complained about the high cost of Logos resources, and I wouldn't mind getting them a bit cheaper myself (well, I'm human, aren't I?  Don't answer that Smile).  What you get, however, is well worth the price, and if you take advantage of Logos' offers and Community Pricing you can save some money compared to what you would otherwise pay.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 14
Joel Reed | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 5:42 PM

Thanks for the reply, it's good to hear someone else's perspective on the matter! 

I think this is my biggest problem ... Are Christians here to make lots of money through ministry, or help other Christians grow in their faith? 

Perhaps I sound a bit harsh, but I have become progressively frustrated by so many of the so called 'Christian Businesses' that are charging an arm and a leg for their products. I've heard all of the excuses before, such as limited distribution, or a small buyers market, but these couldn't be further from the truth. The Christian market is one of the largest individualized markets in the world! There are plenty of people out there that are willing to purchase items like these, and distribution companies would be glad to offer competitive prices to anyone who will give them business. I think many of the Christians out there are stuck in the mentality that for some strange reason Christian products are supposed to be more expensive than secular products. It's almost like most Christians are accepting some kind of 'Persecution Tax' that elevates the prices of their goods and services. Well, I'm happy to tell you all that there are millions of eager Christians in the world that are dying for more ways to grow in their faith, but unfortunately there aren't a lot of ministries (or companies) out there that are willing to supply these needs at a reasonable price. To give you an idea of what I mean, I have included a few examples of some of the so called ministries out there that are gouging their customers . .. JVIM Ministries charges an average of $25-$40 PER DVD even though they sell tens of thousands every week. Rose Publications sells a single Powerpoint DVD for $40 covering only one topic, regardless of the fact that there are thousands of Homeschooling families who would love to have such a wonderful resource ... Jeremiah Films, Prophesy In The News and Exploration Films charge between $20-$40 for an individual DVD (Almost no exceptions in all three cases) ... and of course the biggest perpetrator of them all is Logos Bible Software... charging $150 for a basic Bible software package including no more than a Few Bibles, References and Commentaries ... most of which you can find for free on any eBook website!

I'm sorry if I sound bitter ... I guess I'm tired of being taken advantage of by my so called brothers and sisters in Christ.

As far as I'm concerned, value doesn't play into this ... I would feel taken advantage of if I paid $600 for any software, let alone Bible Software.

Please tell me if I'm way off base here ... but I'm sure there are many of you out there who have experienced the same thing.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 5:45 PM

Joel Reed:
I think this is my biggest problem ... Are Christians here to make lots of money through ministry, or help other Christians grow in their faith? 

We really aren't talking about one Christian helping another.  We are talking about a Christian business which needs to make a profit in order to be able to continue in business and offer the products they have chosen to produce.  If they can't pay the help, the rent, the utilities, etc. and come out with a few $$ left over they won't be around a few years (or less) down the road. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 14
Joel Reed | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 5:51 PM

As I mentioned in my previous posts ... there is a difference between paying the bills and charging too much for a product.

There's nothing wrong with making money in a Ministry, but there is such a thing as taking advantage of your customers.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 6:21 PM

Joel Reed:

As I mentioned in my previous posts ... there is a difference between paying the bills and charging too much for a product.

There's nothing wrong with making money in a Ministry, but there is such a thing as taking advantage of your customers.

I'm sorry to hear that you apparently feel they are "taking advantage."  I think they are simply being wise businessmen.  How much experience do you have in business?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 14
Joel Reed | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 6:33 PM

Wow, you sound pretty defensive there fella ... do you work for Logos or something?

Posts 808
Kevin Maples | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 6:35 PM

Joel,

I don't know how much you have used Logos, but I believe you definitely get what you pay for. I didn't purchase it for a long time because I couldn't afford it. But now that I am a user, I believe that every penny has been very well spent. If all Logos offered was digital books, then it would be way over priced. But what you are buying are not just digital books, but an amazing multi-platform software system that allows you to use the books like never before. I am constantly blow away as I learn new features in Logos. 

I would encourage you to give it a try. If you are unhappy you can always sell your books for a $20 transfer fee. 

Also, I think if you were aware of all that Logos provides in terms of support and service, you would not consider their software overpriced at all. 

Again, you get what you pay for. 

Best wishes. 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 6:43 PM

Joel Reed:
That being said it is also the most expensive software available!

Welcome Big Smile

Concur Logos is expensive plus has many more resources available for purchase on Logos.com and Vyrso.com so more money can be spent building a digital library using Logos Bible Software; much more than any current competitor.

Thankful for 196 free resources in my Logos library from Vyrso.com plus some more free Logos resources.  Logos started giving away Vyrso eBook's near Thanksgiving in 2011.  Noticed Vryso.com now has 8,629 eBooks available for purchase, which can be used on mobile devices and Logos 4.  Vyrso resources are digital resources from a variety of publishers.  Logos 4 includes Vyrso resources when indexing so search can find them.

Thankful for Logos resources purchased a decade ago being updated for use in Logos 4 without needing me to buy them again, which includes a number of resources no longer available for purchase per publisher request.  Along the way, personally have upgraded my base package from Scholar's to Silver, then Gold, and later to Platinum.  With Master's Library Builder purchase last year, the Portfolio upgrade is currently a bit much for me; do have a wish list with Portfolio resources that are not in my Logos library, but wish lish total is less than upgrade.

Thankful for many of my licensed Logos resources now being available for use in iOS, Android, and web browser (Biblia.com) without needing to buy them again, which has included a number of resources being added for mobile use through Logos negotiations with various publishers.

Thankful for many free software releases, which have added a number of features, including personal books in Logos 4 that allow me to freely expand my Logos library by converting docx files.  While looking for free online commentaries noticed a number of comments about substantial quality variations.

Thankful for high quality Logos resources.  While building a 1901 ASV Personal Book Bible using public domain text, comparing free text with Logos ASV 1901 resource found many more typographical errors in the free text; had a couple typographical errors to report to Logos, which will be fixed.  My appreciation for tagging added by Logos has increased.

Thankful for Logos Academic pricing, which offers discounts for students, especially when Logos Bible Software is required for courses.

Thankful for Logos Community Pricing that allows user community to bid on public domain resources.  When a community pricing item has enough bids to cover estimated production cost of high quality Logos resources, a closing date is established.  If enough additional bids are placed to cover 100 % of production costs, then the closing amount can be lower for all bidders, which has happened a number of times.

My favorite Logos 4 feature is visual filter highlighting; wiki has => Examples of visual filters that shows screen shots with Logos Greek Morphology visual filters being used in Greek and English resources, which have appropriate tagging added by Logos.

The Logos business model covers software development costs, mobile access, and Logos cloud servers with resource purchases.

George Somsel:

Joel Reed:
I think this is my biggest problem ... Are Christians here to make lots of money through ministry, or help other Christians grow in their faith? 

We really aren't talking about one Christian helping another.  We are talking about a Christian business which needs to make a profit in order to be able to continue in business and offer the products they have chosen to produce.  If they can't pay the help, the rent, the utilities, etc. and come out with a few $ left over they won't be around a few years (or less) down the road. 

Am aware of a Bible Software competitor that has been acquired by a different company since the competitor essentially ran out of funds.  Considering discounted pricing recently offered for a combined version upgrade ($ 19.95), personally am wondering about the competitor's future since a substantial number of upgrades will be needed to fund development improvements and ongoing operations.

At times, also wonder about cash flow at Logos due to many projects currently in progress.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 6:49 PM

Joel Reed:

Wow, you sound pretty defensive there fella ... do you work for Logos or something?

If you're addressing me, the answer is 'No."  I'm just a long-time customer.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5564
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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 6:54 PM

Joel Reed:

As I mentioned in my previous posts ... there is a difference between paying the bills and charging too much for a product.

There's nothing wrong with making money in a Ministry, but there is such a thing as taking advantage of your customers.

For the reasons I stated above, I don't believe Logos charges too much, and usually feel like I'm getting a bargain. If you feel differently, that doesn't really bother me, but it does seem out of line to suggest that Logos is taking advantage of their customers. Maybe you should come to 1313 Commercial Ave, Bellingham, WA and ask some questions about their costs, and profit margin. That way you could make an informed decision about whether they are taking advantage of their customers, or not.

Second, you seem to keep referring to Logos as a ministry. It's a business. It serves people in ministry, but it is a business. If you don't like the way they do business, don't buy their product. There are stores and restaurants I think charge too much for their products. I don't go to those places. For all I know, some of those businesses are owned or run by believers. What I do know is that if their prices are high enough to lose customers, they'll eventually either change their practice or go out of business. The same will happen with Logos.

I'm quite satisfied with Logos' pricing, as you probably already might have guessed as are thousands of other customers. Sure, I'd rather have everything and pay nothing for it, but I'm not upset about paying a fair price for a quality product.

As for public domain material: get it from the public domain. Read it in PDF, or eSword, or wherever. If you don't need or want it in Logos, don't buy it. But I don't think it's fair to expect Logos to offer for free what costs them hours of time in tagging and proof-reading, to make a resource fully functional in the Logos environment.

Let me say it one more time: if you don't like the price, if you don't think it's a good value, don't buy it.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 14
Joel Reed | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 7:05 PM

I appreciate all of the comments from everybody, even though most of them seemed somewhat bias. Stick out tongue (Kidding!) 

I think the most quoted suggestion 'if you don't like it don't buy it' is probably going to to be the advice I choose to take.

Thanks for the response all the same!

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 7:10 PM

Joel, this isn't the first time this has ocurred on the forums, but it seems from the way you worded your initial post you meant this in a strongly worded e-mail privately to Logos.  You wrote as if you were writing to Logos yet posted it here on the forums.  

Were you looking for public discussion?  Trying to figure out the heart of your initial post.

 

(EDIT) - ah, looks like you answered my post while I was typing mine.  I spoke too soon!

Posts 5251
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 7:33 PM

I too am in no way affiliated with Logos other than being a user for several years. I will admit Logos is expensive (some are almost as expensive). Logos does a great job of bringing many products to publication in a relatively timely matter, with very extensive reference tagging going many works quickly and efficiently. It is by no means an ideal piece of software but it is one of the best pieces out there for Biblical study. It is usually competitively priced when comparing copyrighted resources, and indeed when items are in prepublication they are a great bargain. Lets look at a favourite one of mine.

New Interpreter's Bible

Hard Cover retail $799 (Amazon Pricing $503.31)

Software Retail $799 (Amazon Pricing $473.30)

Logos New Interpreter's Bible (12 vols.) $479.95

This is not even the fairest comparison, since while you may do quick searches with the Abingdon software (Folio is it's core engine ), it cannot be run without the CDROM being in the drive and it is really little more advanced than a PDF reader. The software barely runs on systems after XP (a patched version was released, but most owners of the software have been trying to have it phased out since the turn of century, since it has been sold from microsoft, in the last year maybe the new owners will put more work in it, but even Abingdon has seen the writing on the wall and refused to put their new Bible dictionary in it preferring to release it in a browser compatible base (with a registration card asking several questions about which Bible software you use most). Logos runs on Mac, Windows, with somewhat limited mobile applications (still get many great fears and most of your library) for iOS/Android and web browser access from anywhere with Biblia.com. Logos allows you to use dozens of different Bible versions, NIB CD has NIV(with deutroconaical books from NAB) and NRSV only. 

As you can see it is competitively priced and may not unfairly be compared with calling the NIB CD like a mass paperback version, compared to Logos as a leather-bound edition with gilded pages. I am glad there are various pieces of software out there, I do think Logos is a bit more expensive but will say it is well worth it in my mind's eye.

-dan

 

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 10:30 PM

Dan,

How about my favorite comparison, from an area where I think Logos is vastly overpriced: public domain works. Jonathan Edwards 2 volume set in Logos: $119.95. A competitor: $9.99.

I've never quite figured out the Logos pricing structure. Take works in community pricing. Users pledge to pay enough to cover costs of bringing it into the platform. Doesn't even leave CP until costs are paid. Then it heads to pre-pub where users pay more, yet still get a discount. By this point, new commitments bring money over above the cost of producing the resource. Then the resource is published and the price goes up again, typically several times more than in CP. I understand there are still costs associated: servers to host the content, developers to write the software, customer support, etc, etc, meaning the cost for these things roll into the resource (the software isn't free; we just don't pay for it directly). Nonetheless, the profit margin has to be quite large, particularly for these public domain works. 

Other companies have the same expense needs for developers, servers, support, etc, yet manage to sell public domain resources at less than a tenth the price. 

Posts 5251
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 28 2012 11:22 PM

Chris Roberts:
How about my favorite comparison, from an area where I think Logos is vastly overpriced: public domain works. Jonathan Edwards 2 volume set in Logos: $119.95. A competitor: $9.99.

YES and that is my biggest complaint with Logos, they have great prices for this type of thing in Community pricing, once they get enough to cover production costs, it is made, rather than keeping it as a affordable work available cheaply to all, it is priced as if you are buying it in a store hard covers. Logos makes a mint on every resource they offer off copyright. I had hoped to get the treasury of David on sale earlier only to discover their wonderful sale pricing was something like 3 times it's regular price. I do think this practice seems unChristian to me, but I will say it is a sound business practice for Logos to charge as much as people are prepared to pay. We are called to be wise as serpents yet innocent as doves. I do not mean this to accuse Logos of unChristian behaviour, I am not God, I have no right to sit in judgement of them. I do think they are believing people and if their practices are not proper they will find conviction in their souls to change.

-Dan

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 29 2012 12:46 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
That said, there's a reason that Logos prices are higher than some of their competitors, and that has to do with outstanding customer service, highly tagged and even cross-tagged resources, and a research environment (for studying the Scriptures and other materials) that is unparalleled

Are some of the resources for research stunning?  Absolutely.  Are there some brilliantly nice hard working people at Logos?  Certainly. I think the Pritchett brothers are great, approachable people who have created a company with a wonderful ethos.

What I feel bad about is if I were to refer a friend who uses a Mac to Logos that I can't say that the product has ever really matured since it's release 2 1/2 years ago. It is no exaggeration for me to say that in general I have at any one point a list of 10 bugs and annoyances that I am hoping will get fixed in the next version.  Trouble is, some of those things get fixed and then for some reason a new batch of issues surface. When you spend $600+ dollars for a package, you certainly expect more or at least a time when you can say you have entered into 'trouble free computing'. Maybe the Windows version will, but I'm sad to say that Logos 4 Mac won't be winning any awards with what we have seen so far.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 29 2012 1:34 AM

16 The whole congregation of the Israelites set out from Elim; and Israel came to the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had departed from the land of Egypt. 2 The whole congregation of the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness. 3 The Israelites said to them, "If only we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the fleshpots and ate our fill of bread; for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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