Logos Is Too Expensive

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This post has 387 Replies | 12 Followers

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JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 10:00 PM

http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Speaks

Please note well the section entitled Marketing Information and in particular the Logos' Pricing entries by Bob Pritchett (CEO).

Ditto, Company Information/Logos is a business, not a ministry.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 10:14 PM

I dispute the claim that Logos is selling Cadillacs, and that they don't make the best tools financially accessible to most people. The Logos Starter Package is US$294. On a 12 month payment plan, that's US$25 a month. Many people probably spend twice that on their hobbies, or at least that amount on some kind of entertainment subscription.

The Starter Package has all of the Logos Bible study tools which the most expensive packages have. There's no way to claim Logos isn't offering as many people as possible, affordable access to the Word of God and some of the best tools to study it with.

What differentiates packages is resources. Virtually all resources (with few exceptions), must be licensed from their publishers, and that costs money. But that aside, the vast majority of people do not need and cannot even use, the most expensive resources. I see no merit in criticizing Logos for not providing academic resources at affordable prices to everyone, when most people do not need them and cannot use them.

Many of the original language resources are useless to anyone who can't read the original languages. A significant number of the Logos resources are academic level commentaries which are not only far beyond what the average Bible reader needs, but which typically require knowledge of seminary level hermeneutics.

Leaving that aside, Logos has provided a broad range of completely free software resources, as well as many free books (including the massive Perseus collection). So I cannot agree that they are not doing their most to provide people with affordable access to the Word, and the best tools to study it with. No one is entitled to a free copy of the Anchor Yale Bible, or the Theological Journals Collection, and if they can't afford it that is not the fault of Logos.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 18645
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 10:35 PM

Jonathan Burke:
Logos has provided a broad range of completely free software resources, as well as many free books (including the massive Perseus collection).

See also the list of Free Logos Books on the wiki, which I've now just updated to include the Perseus Collections since those weren't listed.

There are also lots of free Vyrso books and the Logos free book of the month.

Posts 72
papa_gowgow | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 1:39 AM

Robert Turpin:

You're comments make it sound as if you actually think that if a person can't afford to pay what you can afford then they don't deserve to enter the kingdom of God, and that is very dangerous ground indeed!

Robert, I'm not sure you're interpreting ST correctly.  Melodrama aside, I see no evidence that he's saying people who can't afford Bible study tools don't deserve to enter the Kingdom. And unless you have a different Bible to me, you will be aware that Bible study is not a requirement for entry.

That being the case not everyone needs Logos. Public domain works are available to all, very inexpensively; many libraries are carrying lots of theology texts; so by charging a premium for tagged, cross-referenced versions of these books Logos are preventing no-one from reading the actual works, and to take the analogy that's already been used, while they're offering cadillacs, they aren't stopping the rest of the world from having cars.

If anything, Logos are providing a service to evangelists, pastors and teachers, making the process of sermon and Bible study prep more efficient.  If laymen wish to take advantage of this service, so much the better.

But be honest, do you honestly think Logos users will get into the Kingdom ahead of everyone else?

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 4:11 AM

Jonathan Burke:
I dispute the claim that Logos is selling Cadillacs, and that they don't make the best tools financially accessible to most people.

Well said Jonathan Yes.

Jonathan Burke:
The Starter Package has all of the Logos Bible study tools which the most expensive packages have.

But that set does not have all the datasets. However those are also available in the reasonably priced crossgrade packages. Someone must pay the salaries of all the people who put in the labor to prepare them.

Posts 2377
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 4:52 AM

[Re-post from some time back]
Question about the hard copies: Did the publisher expect to sell to you as the only user [and don’t let your friends use it] or to a library where 500 people would use the same book [one at a time]?

Traditional way Sell to library; publisher gets $1000 [incremental cost to publisher - printing and shipping]

OR Sell to each of the individual members of that library and yes, only get $50 per copy [price $100 –- half to publisher half to Logos] EACH for a total take of $25,000 [500 times 50] and advertise to each individual member as Only 10% of the list price for a 90% savings [incremental cost to publisher - nothing. Cost to Logos - cost of the servers / total number of books offered]

Gold mine for Logos and the publisher: sell to the user instead of the library!!!! $25,000 vs $1,000

Gold mine? How many of the Library members will buy a copy at 90%? 95% off? 97.5% off?

And each individual member said “WOW, I saved $900” [For a total savings of $40,500 over all 500 members] [And I no longer need to drive to the 500 Member Library and it is always available - no waiting] [What is the value of having it available NOW?]

Cheap or expensive? [Just keep your eyes open.] Are we looking at how much it is off of "LIST PRICE" or what it is worth to us?

Expensive? Yes, If I had known what my total cost would be I would not have bought Logos. BUT I am doing studies that I never would have done. 

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 5:32 AM

Jack Caviness:
But that set does not have all the datasets.

It doesn't have all the datasets, but it does have all the study tools.

Jack Caviness:
However those are also available in the reasonably priced crossgrade packages. Someone must pay the salaries of all the people who put in the labor to prepare them.

Excellent points.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 5:34 AM

David Ames:
Traditional way Sell to library; publisher gets $1000 [incremental cost to publisher - printing and shipping]

Actually the traditional way is to sell to the library and to sell to individuals. Publishers still do this. In fact selling directly to individuals is how they make most of their money.

David Ames:
Gold mine for Logos and the publisher: sell to the user instead of the library!!!! $25,000 vs $1,000

But publishers don't do this; they sell to the user and to the library.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 10043
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 6:42 AM

The Cadallac comparison came from Logos staff in the early days of Logos4. Frankly, due to Matthew's job resume, I disputed it, saying it was closer to a Jag that sits in the garage needing frequent maintenenance (at the time).

The library discussion is interesting.  I wonder if the public library concept (Carnege) frightened the publishers.


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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 9:02 AM

Jonathan Burke:

Jack Caviness:
But that set does not have all the datasets.

It doesn't have all the datasets, but it does have all the study tools.

I should have included that. Thanks for suppling the missing info.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 9:07 AM

Denise:

The Cadallac comparison came from Logos staff in the early days of Logos4. Frankly, due to Matthew's job resume, I disputed it, saying it was closer to a Jag that sits in the garage needing frequent maintenenance (at the time).

The library discussion is interesting.  I wonder if the public library concept (Carnege) frightened the publishers.

Oh, Denise, you are surely mistaken regarding Logos needing frequent maintenance.    I understand that is true of Jags, but what a beautiful machine (at least the older ones).  I love the red Jag that Lt Morse drives.

My apologies—that should have been Inspector Morse.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 11:08 AM

Robert Turpin:
I think not very much at all, in fact, I could find and create many public domain works in their usable form for them for free (sacrificing my time).
Actually, It takes a lot of work.

  • research time to find a usable form takes some time.  While the actual text might be in the public domain, the various forms of the text tend to be copyrighted.  
  • Most of the items are scanned, and that requires a person to read the entire work of art for scanning errors.
  • It is my understanding that the tagging of the work of art is also done mostly by hand.
  • Don't forget the various expenses that business have (cleaning, electric, water, insurance, etc...)
Posts 10043
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 11:17 AM

Now, George.  First, Libby runs like a top. I don't remember her ever needing maintenance (beyond the underlying operating system by MS).  Logos4/5 has monthly maintenance and a good portion of it bug clearance. Since Libby runs so well, I usually skip Logos5 updates.

Now it IS true that Jaguar did not do monthly maintenance for all of its little quirks.  And to be truthful, in my comment poor grammar attached the 'at the time' to the Jag instead of the newly introduced Logos4.


Posts 2377
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 4:04 PM

Robert Turpin:

I could find and create many public domain works in their usable form for them for free (sacrificing my time).

Robert; I am not trying to give you a hard time but try one. Spec 500 pages with at least 2 footnotes per page. With out using a PDF to DOCX conversion program.  Just to see what is involved.   As reported else where I am up to 4500 minutes of editing one that size and I am only about 25% done.

Feel free to ignore me. Or dive in a give it a try and report back on your experience.  

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 5:41 PM

David Ames:

Robert Turpin:

I could find and create many public domain works in their usable form for them for free (sacrificing my time).

Robert; I am not trying to give you a hard time but try one. Spec 500 pages with at least 2 footnotes per page. With out using a PDF to DOCX conversion program.  Just to see what is involved.   As reported else where I am up to 4500 minutes of editing one that size and I am only about 25% done.

Feel free to ignore me. Or dive in a give it a try and report back on your experience.  

Like most things, there is often a lot more involved than first is imagined.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 912
David Carter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 3 2013 6:03 PM

George Somsel:

My apologies—that should have been Inspector Morse.

Not to be a pedant, but it should actually have been Chief Inspector Morse. One of the PBS stations is showing reruns of the series at the moment which is really making me cast my mind back to a different time in my life.

Posts 17
David Parks | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 1 2014 5:21 PM

There is no question that Logos is the best product available in its category. Their customer service is outstanding. There is no question in my mind that you get what you pay for. However for several years now, I have felt the pricing was getting a little steep. BUT, I think the Upgrade pricing for Logos 6 is completely indefensible. As I have watched the videos of people at work at Logos, it appears that a great deal of money is being spent on creating a super nice and fun place to work. I don't know anything about Logos' corporate governance, but I have to wonder if a more cost conscious CEO is overdue.

I have always been a a software "early adopter" (including for Logos products). But when I checked to price to upgrade 5 Silver to 6 Silver it was $280!! I was stunned. As long as they don't do something that makes 5.0 incompatible with new books, I will not be upgrading. Ultimately the free market will decide who is right about the pricing of the product.

Posts 10043
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 1 2014 5:33 PM

Can't speak to your stunning experience, but Bob (the CEO) noted that the Logos office was what was left from the previous owner.  I, myself, envied Bob's CEO office.  But apparently the prior real estate company had the missing cost conscious executive.  Bob and employees just lucked out.


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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 1 2014 5:44 PM

David Parks:
But when I checked to price to upgrade 5 Silver to 6 Silver it was $280!! I was stunned. As long as they don't do something that makes 5.0 incompatible with new books, I will not be upgrading. Ultimately the free market will decide who is right about the pricing of the product.

You may already know this, but in case you don't—the free Logos 6 engine will be available in February. Also, did you check out the cost to crossgrade? You get the Logos 6 features without any new resources. See--https://www.logos.com/product/45040/logos-6-core-crossgrade

David Parks:
I have always been a a software "early adopter" (including for Logos products).

I've been the same way, and every few months I tell myself that I have to stop upgrading everything on day one! There are advantages to waiting for the bugs in new software to get ironed out. But then I look at the new features and my resolve, and in the case of Logos especially, my wallet melts!

Posts 17
David Parks | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 1 2014 5:46 PM

Thanks for your explanation. That's is good to know. After watching the videos I was beginning to think that Logos was trying to become a Google or Apple-like work environment on our dime. From what I have read they have put a stunning amount of work into 6.0. I am just not yet convinced that the benefits would justify the cost, for me. I would have liked the option of test driving an upgrade of just the core program before deciding if I wanted to go all in. A silver to Silver upgrade without any new books would have made me happy.

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