Logos 4 home page and ribbon.

Unless I miss my guess....Damian reads the bible...[^o)]

also being serious;

Is this "Catholic" in the early church sense OR Roman Catholic?

I have to say that I made a joke and tried to be nice to make my point but John is right...that's not appropriate.

Brother....blanket statements just don't work and this one needs to be jettisoned.

James Luzadder said:

Catholics
don’t read the bible.

It may, in fact, be fair to say that a large number of Catholics don't read the bible.

Many Catholics in the developing world are illiterate!

Many Catholics in the developed world have never developed a devotional life revolving around reading the Bible...

But, like our forebears, every Catholic hears the word of God and is devoted to the Word (Catholicism is not a religion of the Book it is a religion dedicated to the Person of Christ - it is He who is our measure and guide).

For those interested in how much of the Bible Catholics listen too over the course of the 3 year lectional cycle: http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Statistics.htm

So can we drop the initial blanket insult from this thread? [:$]

With the release of L4, it seems there has been quite the influx of new forum posters (me included, logos user for over 10 years and my first forum post was day one of L4)

With that "influx" comes all kinds of people.  Some of which display their "colors" a bit too brightly (or darkly rather).  I believe the Lord Jesus' command to "Love God, Love Others" still stands... [:|]  If He has decided to omit that (which fulfills the WHOLE law) then I missed the memo.

MJ. Smith said:

Roman Catholic is short-hand for Roman Rite Catholic.

No. "Roman Catholic" is a term coined by Anglicans in England to disparage papists. It is never the self-identifier of the Catholic Church in any document except ecumenical dialogues with the Anglican Communion (and the occasional legal document in English ex-colonies).

I am a Latin Rite Catholic who uses the Roman liturgical tradition.

Heading still miles off topic...

Martha, try the online Catholic Encyclopaedia or Wikipedia entries on "Roman Catholic" or visit the discussion page for any "Roman Catholic" entry on Wikipedia - the last is a barrel of laughs.

Wrt...

MJ. Smith said:

Roman liturgical tradition

1. Latin (Roman) Rite
2. Mozarabic Rite
3. Anglican use (recently expanded)
4. Ambrosian Rite
5. Braga Rite
6. Dominican Rite
7. Carthusian Rite
8. Carmelite Rite

The Latin Rite, or Western Rite, or Latin Church, or Western Church has various liturgical traditions. The majority tradition is the Roman Rite, some of the traditions grew out of the Roman Rite, some did not. The Ambrosian RIte, for example, heavily influenced the Roman Rite and then, in turn was influenced by it... The Mozarbic and Gallican Rites can not in anyway be considered Roman. The ROman influence was very late and minimal.

MJ. Smith said:

Yes, you did a much better job of describing the Biblia Pauperum than I did; I do have a reproduction of one.

I do, too! I've actually got two different ones. We actually had a sermon at my church on the Biblia Pauperum by noted Christian art historian Laurel Gasque earlier this year (I'd invited her after taking her course on Faith & Western Art). The audio of that sermon (but unfortunately not the slides yet; I'll see if we can get them from her) is available on our website here.

MJ. Smith said:

I'll admit that I was so frustrated at people being upset at the lectionary (potentially) showing on the home page, that I reacted more than usual to James Luzadder's statement. He baited; I bit.

Yeah, I was tempted to bite as well, but I realized plenty of others had already responded to him adequately.

MJ. Smith said:

Actually, it would be nice for Logos to carry a Biblia Pauperum in their media library. It would serve to counteract some misinformation about the Bible and the Middle Ages.

Oh, don't get me started on what Logos needs to add to their media library! There is a paucity (complete absence, as far as I can tell) of any real art. All they've got is diagrams, "clip-art" like sketches of biblical objects, maps, and photos of Bible lands. Those are all nice, but very weak compared to what is available (and here's where the Catholics have perhaps an edge on us Protestants -- they never threw out art in the Reformation like we did). There are thousands of great paintings of Biblical subjects in the public domain, and many of them have been collected into online digital libraries. Logos needs to get with the program -- there is a new Renaissance going on now in terms of Faith and the Arts (just look at the flood of recent book titles on that subject, none of which, I might add, have made it into Logos's library [:(]) -- and provide integration of these wonderful resources to enrich our Bible study! Here are some places where these images can be found. Sure, there might need to be licensing arrangements with the publishers of the digital versions of these images, but hey, that's what Logos is in the business to do and they do it very well!

Art in the Christian Tradition (Vanderbilt Divinity Library)
The Art Concordance (put together by the custodian of The Text This Week with suggestions from her viewers) - links to biblical art hosted all over the Internet, indexed by Scripture reference and Theme
Art and the Bible (collected and maintained by a web publisher in Amsterdam)
ATLA Cooperative Digital Resources Initiative - digital resources for the study of religion, a joint project of the American Theological Library Association and Association of Theological Schools; the whole first section of this index is titled "Architecture, art, iconography"
Biblical Art on the WWW (one individual's pet project, but very comprehensive)
ARTStor (a database of digital images of art, available only for subscribers or through institutional subscriptions; but has tons of Biblical art in it)

MJ. Smith said:

I do hope that L4 will soon allow customer-created web site lists ... or perhaps they would allow a handful of entries in the topics.logo wiki for Biblical art, music, online journals, lectionary-based study/sermon sites etc. I would volunteer to convert the toolbars I'd made for L3 if you volunteer for religious art.

Sure, I'd be glad to volunteer to create a wiki page listing sites for religious art. But I do really hope Logos will integrate it into their search engine. I'd love to be able to use it to find all art related to a particular passage or person or place.

MJ. Smith said:

And to retaliate slightly for causing my sin, I'll mention that we There's no emoticon for a  residence a priest who spent much of his carreer as a curator in the Vatican. [there's no emoticon for a smug wink].

I just read today in ArtDaily (which claims to be the "First Art Newspaper on the Net") an article "Pope Benedict Meets Artists from Around the World in the Sistine Chapel" with an awesome fisheye photo of the Sistine Chapel with all those artists assembled there with the pope. Now, that'll get your envy juices going!

Thanks, Joe, for pointing me to this thread! Apart from the initial prejudice, well worth reading. 

MJ. Smith said:

Also in the Middle Ages churches in Southern Italy had their walls painted in frescos

Not just Southern Italy! I'm going to a 13th century Franciscan church tomorrow, which is full of frescos, as are lots of other Swedish churches.

MJ. Smith said:

And yes, there are a few others but I can't find their names at the moment.

Besides the Gallican and Sarum rites mentioned later in the thread I believe there was also a Brigettine Rite. Certainly for the Office; I don't remember with absolute certainty about the Mass. And the Benedictines/Cistercians also had their own Rite, at least for the Office -- some of which, amusingly, have been preserved in the (very unofficial) Church of Sweden Office. Also, I'm fairly certain the Irish would have had their own rite[s ] as well.

Rosie Perera said:

here's where the Catholics have perhaps an edge on us Protestants -- they never threw out art in the Reformation like we did

Not all Protestants did either!

Damian McGrath said:

Whatever term you may prefer, the expression "Roman Rite" is not one used anywhere to refer to the "Latin Church".

And what was the Latin Church and Rite called back in the days when it used Greek? [:P]

MJ. Smith said:

you left out the Dominicans

No, I didn't. They were already in your original list, as were the Carthusians and Carmelites. [;)] I was just adding some you forgot.

MJ. Smith said:

From very early times the practices of Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Constantinople differed. The Latin church used Latin, the Greek church used Greek

Unless I was taught completely incorrectly, or new research has changed things, I believe that you are wrong about this. The Church in Rome is supposed to have been founded primarily among the Greek speaking population (slaves and immigrants) -- which is why we still talk about the "Kyrie", and probably why Peter and Paul could easily preach to them -- and they continued to use Greek for a surprisingly long time. So they could hardly have talked about the "Latin Church" and the "Latin Rite" back then... Presumably they did talk about the "Roman Church" and the "Roman Rite".

EDIT: Damian is definitely wrong about "Roman Rite" never being used officially. I just found it in CCC 1203 (British English edition)! It doesn't get any more official than that!

It is, however, used the opposite way you used it in your list: "Roman rite" for the rite used in Rome; "Latin rite" as the wider term for Roman, Ambrosian, Dominican etc. Makes sense. So now both you and I can continue to use "Roman" with good conscience! [:D]

EDIT 2: I've now found "Roman rite" in Sacrosanctum Concilium as well. Precisely where Damian said I wouldn't find it! [:P]

fgh said:

Damian is definitely wrong about "Roman Rite" never being used officially.

Please re-read exactly what I wrote. It is never used officially to refer to the "Latin Church."

Considering that I celebrate Mass according to the Roman Rite every day, I am well aware that it is the preferred term used to refer to the dominant liturgical form in the Latin Church.