Help: Looking for OT references to the (coming) Kingdom of God

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Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:28 AM

I am looking for references to the Kingdom of God (Kingdom of Heaven, Jehovah, etc.) in the OT. Specifically, references to the Millenniall Kingdom. I've done "Kingdom within 3 words (God, Heaven)", but so far im not getting close.

Any clues?

Thanks in advance

Preston

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:32 AM

Update:

Close as I've got is Isaiah 2:2-4

So what i would do next is search the New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge for relevant cross references, but i was wondering if there is a better method.

 

 

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:37 AM

I would recommend you open a basic search and then search a topical resource or collection for "kingdom of God" or even "kingdom of God" AND "old testament" There are some articles in Every Teaching of Jesus in the Bible. Often times topical references can get us into the biblical text and then we can perform cross references to other scripture from there. I hope this gets you started.

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Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:38 AM

PrestonDavis:
but so far im not getting close.

Actually I think you are getting close - your searches have revealed that it's not there Smile

To be more precise, the ideas are certainly there, but it's not stated in that way... It's the vibe, it's Mabo, it's the constitution... (if you'll excuse an Australianism Big Smile)

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Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:00 AM

Jon Rumble:

PrestonDavis:
but so far im not getting close.

Actually I think you are getting close - your searches have revealed that it's not there Smile

To be more precise, the ideas are certainly there, but it's not stated in that way... It's the vibe, it's Mabo, it's the constitution... (if you'll excuse an Australianism Big Smile)

Jon,

While I can't affirm or deny your Ozism, I assume I agree with you.

Preston, it would be like looking in the Warren report for a conspiracy theory. The words won't be there, but someone looking for evidence will find it.

You'll need to search through commentaries and books on eschatology (End Times) theology or books on theology for eschatology. Those who believe it is there will discuss it and point you to where you want to go; those who don't, like those who don't think there is a conspiracy behind Kennedy's assassination, won't find it nor probably discuss it (except, perhaps, to try to refute it).

Look into Daniel, for example. Many scholars see much that is eschatological in the second half of the book, but no where will you find words like: "Jesus," "Second Coming," "Millennium," "Kingdom of God" (other kingdoms, but not 'of God'), etc. Interpreters who see references to the Millennium see it in symbolic, typological, or allegorized references.

IMO,

Chris

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:49 AM

I looked for "millennial" throughout my entire library, not just Bibles, and found some more references for you:

Psalm 72

Isaiah chapters 11-12

Jeremiah 23:1-8

Jeremiah chapters 30-34

Ezekiel chapters 40-48

Micah 4:1-5 (which parallels the Isaiah 2 passage).

Haggai 2:6-9

Zechariah chapter 8 and 9:9-10:12 and chapter 14

Be sure to read the full context around any verses you find. It's always better for gaining understanding to read large chunks rather than picking a verse or two out here or there.

See also, the entry titled "Millennium" in any number of Bible dictionaries, such as the Dictionary of the Later New Testament & Its Developments (IVP, 1997), Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (1988), Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (1987), Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), etc.

Posts 71
Paul Buckhiester | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:40 AM

Preston,

Recommend you consult the following:

Walvoord, Thy Kingdom Come (commentary on Matthew) (Dispensational) and other Walvoord resources

Prophecy Knowldedge Handbook

Bibliotech Sacra

Bible Knowledge Commentary

Fruchtenbaum materiel

Constable material

ESV Study Bible Notes and Articles (online only so far)

Revelation: Four Views

These, though will provide you with most of the biblical references and the various frameworks promulgated.

Paul

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 11:13 AM

PrestonDavis:

I am looking for references to the Kingdom of God (Kingdom of Heaven, Jehovah, etc.) in the OT. Specifically, references to the Millenniall Kingdom. I've done "Kingdom within 3 words (God, Heaven)", but so far im not getting close.

Any clues?

You may have to broaden your scope a bit. For example Psalm 45:6; 103:19; 145:11-13 suggests the Kingdom of God, but doesn't name it that. Also consider Isa 9:7; Jer 10:7; Dan 2:44; 4:3, 34; 6:26; 7:14 (a key messianic prophecy about the Kingdom of God), 7:27: Obadiah 21. I gleaned those from searching for "Kingdom." But that list would be incomplete. You should also search for "King," "Reign," "Rule" etc. probably with "God," "Lord" (but then you miss personal pronouns that refer to God, the Lord, etc.). In fact all the prophecies about the Messiah are Kingdom prophecies, since Messiah means 'annointed' and the prophetic material points to one anointed to rule as King.

In the OT "Kingdom of God (or of Heaven)" was not the catch-all phrase it became by NT times. But the idea of the Kingdom of God is present in many ways in the OT. Consider the discussion between God and Samuel about Israel wanting a King. God tells Samuel that it is His kingship that they are rejecting (not Samuel's leadership). This suggests the idea of God as King of Israel, and Israel being the Kingdom of God in those times.

While it seems to me that the phrase "Kingdom of God" takes on a much richer meaning in the NT than anything we see in the OT, the seeds of these concepts are in the OT, and the NT understanding of that phrase is dependent on the OT concepts and prophesies as well.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 2:17 PM

Jon Rumble :
"...your searches have revealed that it's not there"

Yeah...I see...but while not there EXPLCITLY, it IS all throughout the very fabric of the Jewish faith (i.e. identity, politics, lifestyle). This is revealing. An excelent study topic. im gonna have to "dig deep" to get at this one.

Although I did find a few references to Kingdom of our Lord via the Yale Anchor Bible Dictionary libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<KINGDOMOT>.1973.0|res=LLS:14.0.4 but I plan to do (much) more research on this topic.

I am searching to see (from the OT only...) if it can be said that the Israelites KNEW of the following future realities concerning the Kingdom. Namely that:

  1. They knew of God’s promise that "one day" the Kingdom of God would indeed be established
  2. …here on earth, with its capital in Jerusalem and ...
  3. would reign for a thousand years (millennium).
  4. They also knew that for this to happen, God Himself would send a deliverer, "Messiah the King".
  5. That this "deliverer" would come from the line of David.
  6. That this "Messiah" would subdue all the nations of the earth and establish a Theocratic Kingdom based on God’s Rule which ...
  7. He would administer from Israel as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

... using NOTHING but the OLD Testament.

@ Paul Buckhiester

I've been SO into the Fruchtenbaum resources that It seems to always be open. i've found some excellent articles there. Especially this: libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<MBS182.1.A>.0.0|res=LLS:MESSBBLSTD

@ Everyone else,

Thank you for the guidance and recommendations, Im on it. I am casting a "wider net" now that I realize that this is a "treasure hunt". 

Praise God! He has SO blessed us with these tools and this community. I have been amazed at how true the Scripture: "Ask and ye shall recieve". Never before have I been able to do so much with such little time! Amazing, God is Amazing, His Word is Amazing. I think im going to ask for a 30 hour day (so I can get in more Bible Study) ... couldnt hurt :)

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 2:21 PM

Hmm. I cant seem to get the links to go directly to the logos resource...

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 2:28 PM

PrestonDavis:

Hmm. I cant seem to get the links to go directly to the logos resource...

When I clicked on your link, it opened the Anchor Bible Dictionary to an article called Kingdom of God to sub-point B. The Old Testament.

I think it worked.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 3:11 PM

Thanks Brother Deruiter, good to know!

Just tried again...still not working for me. I'm using Logos 4 on  an Intel Dual Core 64Bit, WinXP Pro, 2 Gigs Ram.

Are you on 4 or 3 (Libronix)?

Thanks again

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 3:39 PM

PrestonDavis:

Thanks Brother Deruiter, good to know!

Just tried again...still not working for me. I'm using Logos 4 on  an Intel Dual Core 64Bit, WinXP Pro, 2 Gigs Ram.

Are you on 4 or 3 (Libronix)?

Thanks again

Logos4, linking from here with Firefox (3.5.5).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:18 PM

PrestonDavis:

I am searching to see (from the OT only...) if it can be said that the Israelites KNEW of the following future realities concerning the Kingdom. Namely that:

  1. They knew of God’s promise that "one day" the Kingdom of God would indeed be established
  2. …here on earth, with its capital in Jerusalem and ...
  3. would reign for a thousand years (millennium).
  4. They also knew that for this to happen, God Himself would send a deliverer, "Messiah the King".
  5. That this "deliverer" would come from the line of David.
  6. That this "Messiah" would subdue all the nations of the earth and establish a Theocratic Kingdom based on God’s Rule which ...
  7. He would administer from Israel as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

... using NOTHING but the OLD Testament.

 

I'm sure you mean well, but with all due respect, the Bible isn't meant to be used to prove a theory that you have in advance when you come to the text. Read the text for what God says to you through it. Take it on its own terms, not on some external theological framework that you place onto it. Much misuse of Scripture has been done throughout the ages by eisegesis (reading something into the text that wasn't there), rather than exegesis (gleaning meaning out of the text). The rewards of exegesis in terms of relationship with God and understanding of his will and his ways far outstrip the self-satisfaction you get when you can justify this or that theory by rallying verses to prove your point. Anybody, given enough knowledge of the content of Scripture, can prove just about anything even if it contradicts the spirit of the Word (people for years justified the practice of slavery in the South by reference to Scripture, for example). That kind of use of the Bible isn't fruitful to your spritual life, though. In the gentlest possible digital voice, I say to you, think again before continuing on this quest. And may God bless you regardless of how you decide to proceed. He knows you mean well, and I know he can turn even a misguided search into good for those who love him. But love Him above all, not your fixed idea. Be willing to let it go if when reading the text you find that he's showing you something else.

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 6:11 AM

Rosie Perera:
I'm sure you mean well, but with all due respect, the Bible isn't meant to be used to prove a theory that you have in advance when you come to the text.

Rosie, uh...what are you talking about? I think you are guilty of not following your own advice. YOU have read ...all that...into my search, not me.  I never said what I was searching for WAS there, i said i want to see it if IS there from an OT perspective. If it is there... it's there, if it is not ...then its not. Either way, Gods will be done. Thank you for your advice, but I think it is way off-base. I think I'll continue with my "misguided" search.

...wow...

Because of CALVARY

Preston Davis

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 6:32 AM

Preston,

From your original question it sounds like you are a dispensationalist (forgive me if I am wrong). For this perspective you might want to look at Alva J. McClain's The Greatness of the Kingdom (BMH Books - not available for Logos), I'm not certain I agree with his interpretation of the Biblical Data but it seems like he has a fairly thorough look at the Old Testament.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 7:09 AM

Rosie Perera:
'm sure you mean well, but with all due respect, the Bible isn't meant to be used to prove a theory that you have in advance when you come to the text. Read the text for what God says to you through it. Take it on its own terms, not on some external theological framework that you place onto it.

Rosie

Does this mean that you would not consult a systematic theology textbook? Should we never seek to say what various portions of the Bible have to say of a particular subject? Is ever passage to be studies in isolation?

I am not seeking to be critical. I just want to understand your meaning.

Posts 41
Preston Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 8:11 AM

Kevin Becker:
From your original question it sounds like you are a dispensationalist (forgive me if I am wrong).

No, you are not wrong. From my studies Pre-trib, pre-mill make the most sense to me. Very observant, Brother.

Kevin Becker:
For this perspective you might want to look at Alva J. McClain's The Greatness of the Kingdom (BMH Books - not available for Logos)

Will have to investigate, product Description read well (see below). Can you (or any of this August Body) recommend any LOGOS titles along this tract?

The Greatness of the Kingdom: An Inductive Study of the Kingdom of God

"This classic penetrating analysis of the Kingdom of God as taught in both the Old and New Testaments has been republished in a handsome hardback dust jacket edition. Throughout The Greatness of the Kingdom, Alva McClain builds a substantial exegetical argument for a premillenial understanding of the Kingdom of God. The 556-page masterwork was written by the founding president of Grace Theological Seminary, who was a member of the Scofield Reference Bible Revision Committee as well as a charter member of the Evangelical Theological Society."

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=690113

Kevin Becker:
I'm not certain I agree with his interpretation of the Biblical Data

Duly noted. if i get it, I'll give it a read, and then we can dialog.

Thanks for the info!

Posts 71
Paul Buckhiester | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 10:07 AM

Preston,

While you may not agree with a dispensatonal framework, I still encourage to use the following ref, if for nothing else than the Scripture refs.

http://ldolphin.org/otpremill.html

Paul

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 10:56 AM

JackCaviness:

Rosie Perera:
I'm sure you mean well, but with all due respect, the Bible isn't meant to be used to prove a theory that you have in advance when you come to the text. Read the text for what God says to you through it. Take it on its own terms, not on some external theological framework that you place onto it.

Does this mean that you would not consult a systematic theology textbook? Should we never seek to say what various portions of the Bible have to say of a particular subject? Is ever passage to be studies in isolation?

That wasn't my intent at all. I've studied systematic theology in seminary with none other than J.I. Packer -- and am all for it. Nor did I mean to imply one should read passages in isolation. Their first context should be the rest of Scripture, of course. And yes, commentaries, theologies, and other external guides can be extremely helpful in understanding Scripture. I wouldn't be using the Logos library if I didn't believe that. But Preston, in his third post on this thread, was talking about having a theory, quite a specific one at that, and wanting to see if he could find verses in the OT to prove this. Whether he came up with that theory himself or found it in a book of systematic theology, I'm not sure. But if you look to Scripture to prove something you already think is true, it will not disappoint you. If you let it read like a fresh revelation from God each time, it will also not disappoint. To each his own. I just don't advocate Preston's method of Bible study. But that's just my opinion. I have no need to tell other people how they should approach the Word of God. It's wide enough, as is His mercy, to reward all serious seekers.

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