Wow Logos on the Mac is so sub-par

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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 12:16 PM

alabama24:

Monroe R Miller:
One wonders what is this "right direction" of which you speak?

The "right direction" is to keep the company competitive. Logos doesn't make one cent from the software... the sale of resources is what keeps them in business. To develop the software takes capitol... which means that Logos must be looking at where the market is going. Logos is doing just fine financially now, but that could change overnight. For example: Consider that five years ago the world had yet to see an iPhone and Nokia and Blackberry reigned supreme. Both companies are shells of their former selves. 

Monroe R Miller:
It sounds to me like another instance of marketing and sales taking precedence over quality.

As I have said, the company needs to sell resources to raise capitol in order to further develop the features and quality of the software. The development of Faithlife and Vyrso help to ensure that future.

I am a diehard Mac Addict. There are other Mac Addicts who cringe at the success of the iOS devices. I know, however, that the success of those departments help to keep Apple a great, vibrant, and relevant company. Faithlife and Vyrso will perhaps do the same thing for Logos.

 

That make a great deal of sense.  Thanks!  :)

 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 74
Monroe R Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 12:50 PM

Here's my problem with what you say: When L4 first came out (for Windows), I wondered why Logos would release a product that clearly did not work. I received a reply from Bob that they did that because they wanted to offer it for sale during the Fall Christmas shopping season. Thus, a marketing strategy lead to the release of an inferior product. Logos does this over and over. That type of action does not increase profitability nor raise capital. It does do great harm to the company's reputation.

The same thing is now happening with L4 Mac.

Rich+

Posts 5315
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 3:00 PM

alabama24:

Dan Francis:
It was disappointing to hear them tell us optimizing  is no longer considered a priority

Bob didn't say that. I assume you refer to the user voice comments. He said something like "we know this is an ongoing issue, we are working on it, so I'm going to release the votes for other issues."

Sorry I did misinterpret that…. but I do mean taking it off the issues makes you feel it is no longer a priority and yes f lots of things have yet to be resolved but the items coming up for my day to day use seem to be resolved in one or two builds…. I am not a "power user" so some of the specialized bugs may be overlooked by me.

-Dan

Posts 2
Kurt Shimada | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 9:04 PM

I'm new to the Mac version of Logos. It is a little slower than the PC versions that I have. But otherwise am very happy with the software. I use it daily for my homework and am glad to have the platform on my iOS devices as well. Don't recall it every crashing or hanging. May God bless you all for what you are doing.

I'm running a MacBook Pro 2.3GHz, 4GB, mid-2012.

Posts 10791
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 2:33 AM

Kurt Shimada:
Don't recall it every crashing or hanging.

Pleased for you that your experience is so positive. Some of us experience moderate performance hits and crashes. Others have serious problems with even the most basic operations. The more problems a person has—along with a substantial financial investment—the more likely they are to post on these forums with negative comments.

Posts 10791
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 2:34 AM

Monroe R Miller:
That type of action does not increase profitability nor raise capital.

Bob may be a better judge of that than those of us looking in from the outside.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 12:44 PM

alabama24:
Logos doesn't make one cent from the software...

Come now, that's really not true. All the resources in the world are meaningless without the software. They cannot sell the resources without the software. They often advertise their resources with reference to the software. It's all about the software. No software, no money for Logos. Better software, more people jumping on board. 

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 12:46 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:
What keeps me using it instead of solely using the other program I have?  A sizeable investment in resources I made prior to going to Mac.

This is the part that bugs me. I've already invested a lot in resources, but I really have a hard time seeing sticking with the Mac version if it isn't going to have real improvement. If it is going to continue the same path in the future, it's just not worth it. That makes it hard to justify spending even more money on resources. That's why I want to know what the future brings. Yes, there have been a lot of updates and patches and bug fixes, yet the overall experience hasn't changed much for a while. Some of the biggest early problems have been fixed, but it's still a bulky, unresponsive program.

Logos, why should I continue spending money for resources when the Mac version has shown so little real and significant progress? 

Posts 578
John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 1:27 PM

I've been following this thread anxiously for several days now.  I'm a long time logos user on windows, since 2.0x.  I also have an iPad and I'm encouraged by what I see happening to the app on ios.  I'm using windows 7 right now (since its release in 2009) and I LOVE it!

However, I think he handwriting us on the wall for windows.  HP and DELL are both taking major hits financially.  I fully expect windows 8 to tank even worse than Vista did! And will completely ignored by business.

Couple that with the steady market share increase of the Mac platform, and I think Logos should be working hard on the Mac version.  It is extremely likely that my next computer (within the next year or so) is going to be a Mac.  I am hoping that the Mac version of Logos will be the showpiece by then instead of the windows version.

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 1:34 PM

John Kaess:
Couple that with the steady market share increase of the Mac platform, and I think Logos should be working hard on the Mac version

I can see this, at 78% Windows to 3.7% Mac who knows, in 50 or 100 years Mac's may be the machine of choice Yes

(although there are contrary warning signs since Mac growth has leveled off this year at just above 9%)

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 578
John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 1:39 PM

It's not what the market share is now, but in what direction it is going.  And your stat must be old.  Mac's market share is around 15% right now.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 1:41 PM

Paul Golder:

John Kaess:
Couple that with the steady market share increase of the Mac platform, and I think Logos should be working hard on the Mac version

I can see this, at 78% Windows to 3.7% Mac who knows, in 50 or 100 years Mac's may be the machine of choice Yes

(although there are contrary warning signs since Mac growth has leveled off this year at just above 9%)

That probably includes businesses.

Methinks you'd have to look at target markets for Logos - such as, households where there is significant interest in the Bible -  for any stat to be meaningful

 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 1:42 PM

John Kaess:

It's not what the market share is now, but in what direction it is going.  And your stat must be old.  Mac's market share is around 15% right now.

July 3, 2012:

http://mashable.com/2012/07/03/mac-vs-pc-sales/

Haven't seen that 15% number since March of last year. 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1713
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 4:34 PM

I am very sorry you're unhappy with Logos Mac performance and quality. As Todd White has pointed out, we are working hard on it and releasing updates every few weeks. While it may appear that "not much is happening," much is happening behind the scenes, and we're getting more stable.

As you can imagine, I am very concerned about staying profitable and in business. I know that if we annoy / frustrate all of our Mac users, (or users on any platform), we will lose them as customers and go out of business. I also know that if we don't keep making new things to sell, and put 100% of energy into fixing this, we will run out of cash before we fix everything everyone is unhappy with. (Because even what people want keeps changing, with new platforms, versions of OS X, etc.)

Having visibility into our financial situation, I know a lot about what we can and can not afford to do. And I also hear all the complaints. :-)

Logos employs more than 300 people; my goal is to keep us all employed, and ensure that we're all here into the distant future so that we can continue to serve you. I have to balance many priorities every day, and I call things wrong all the time. Fortunately, I call enough right -- so far -- to have kept us alive and growing.

I believe that a future-safe strategy must A) plan for things that aren't true today, but will be tomorrow, and B) involve experiments that might be turn out wrong. Because while we don't know the future, we do know that it won't be exactly like today. We have to guess.

I was late to the Mac. I was late to iOS. Bad calls. I was late to BlackBerry. Good call! Glad we didn't spend too many resources there...

I was maybe a bit early to "the cloud" for storing user data, but I'm very happy with that call. Now, in the era of iCloud, DropBox, EverNote, SkyDrive, etc. it seems both obvious and essential.

You can stop arguing over industry platform stats. What matters to us are our user stats: Today Mac is 30% of our user base, and that's what drives our decision making. So, if you're worried we aren't taking Mac seriously enough, you shouldn't. 30% is really, really serious to us. 

However we must keep the doors open, and no matter how unhappy Mac users are -- and how important 30% of sales is to us -- stabilizing and bug fixing doesn't generate revenue. So we have to ship new products, new features, and new books even while we work on the Mac. And we had might as well, because people aren't interchangeable: everyone working on new books can't be magically turned into a Mac programmer. You can't even hire a Mac programmer for the same money. You can barely hire a Mac programmer at all, for any money! :-)

Yes, to be fair to the accusations, I am not putting all of our resources on "fixing the Mac." Conceivably we could retrain our Android, iOS, and even Windows developers to code for the Mac. But we'd make some of the 70% (okay, some of the 100%, since Mac users have Android and iOS devices too) users unhappy by doing so. And sometimes more people don't actually speed things up; re-architecting a technology component isn't always parallelizable.

And yes, we are putting some resources (again, different skill sets) into new/emerging products, like Faithlife and Proclaim and even Windows 8. But that's part of planning to be here for the future, and those things all connect together to build a stronger platform -- for Mac, Windows, mobile, web, etc.

Next week's 4.6a beta will have a lot of Mac improvements, and more are being done. I think that if you look at the release notes, and pattern of regular releases, it's just silly to say that we aren't doing anything significant on the Mac. We are, and we have as many people working on the Mac as on any other development project.

Moreover, while I completely agree that we have performance and stability and parity issues we still need to address, the Mac user base does appear (based on what we see from inside Logos) to be split into "it never works for me" and "it always works for me" camps. I'm not sure what accounts for the split -- if it's the age of hardware, amount of memory, version of OS X, or intensity or pattern of use of the product -- but as you can see even from posters in this forum thread, many people aren't having daily problems with it. 30% of the user base isn't up in arms about the Mac; 30% of support calls aren't critical Mac issues. The pain appears to be spread unevenly, and I'm sorry if it's affecting you worse.

We are working on it. The Mac is a top priority, including performance, feature parity and stability. But it's going to take time.

In the meantime, you're welcome to keep beating us up here in the forums, threatening to switch to competitors, return the product, etc. While it consumes time "rushing to the forum to re-post the same things we've been saying for months", it does serve a purpose of keeping it top of mind. And you can be assured, it is. I rarely go to a development meeting internally where "making Mac users happy" isn't brought up.  :-)

 

Posts 2675
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 7:12 PM

alabama24, We need your help.

Bob Pritchett just stated that “the Mac user base does appear (based on what we see from inside Logos) to be split into "it never works for me" and "it always works for me" camps. I'm not sure what accounts for the split”

How do we get Mac users to report their system specs when they have a problem? [in some standard format that all Mac users could relate to] The obvious things are OS and Revision, Memory, Hard drive space. What other items might help Bob’s Mac crew?

And how do we report type of usage? [what other progams you have running at the same time - and does Logos still fail if you quit all the others - might be one]

[I am a PC person so all I can do on this problem is ask Alabama24 for help [but I can show charity (1 cor 13)] [and I did say ‘We’] ]

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 9:01 PM

Dear Mr.Pritchett: Thank you for what seems to be a very honest report.

There is much in your post I can agree with, much, I cannot.

The Business Model you present is not an uncommon one, the difficulties you present are not uncommon either and, my heart goes out to you on running a company. No small task in running a company like yours and I appreciate your desire to keep your employees working.

However, if I may be so bold, I would like to make a suggestion for your thinking processes.

Apple, not so very long ago, used a business model somewhat like the one you explain. It did not work well for very long and they finally brought back Steve Jobs.

They were , for all practical purposes , on the razor edge of complete failure.

Steve Jobs did many things which are now history with the result of Apple becoming the single most valuable company in the World . ( I think that is now correct ).

Of all Jobs did, one thing enabled all the success and, the ability to overcome failures ( which is part of business and, I applaud you for being so open about the things you have tried and failed, hit and missed. Hey, your trying, can't fail or succeed without trying).

This "one thing" that Jobs planted in Apple and insisted on was: Quality, things just have to be done well, it always pays off to do things really well.

The second things he did was to trow out a lot of product and simply try to do a few things- extremely well.

In my humble opinion, I honestly believe if Logos would just "focus" on trying to make what they already have be truly excellent, then everything else will take care of itself.

Lastly: I have to agree with the assessment that some have no real issues with Logos, others seem to have issues almost constantly. Does seem quite strange. As a person who spent most of their adult life in the music industry as an Engineer and has had to trouble shoot equipment and situations on a large scale, I feel very sure of what I am about to say: Something is wrong with the way your staff is doing the trouble shooting. There is a common denominator somewhere. I have taught many people how to trouble shoot equipment, installs etc. This is with extremely complex equipment, digital processors, digital consoles, fiber optics and more channels of information streams than most can imagine , both digital and analog. In every situation where there would be " recurring problems" that often seemed random ( Some have it, Some don't ), with time, proper information gathering ( testing, recording results ) eventually we were always able to find the common denominator which then led to the weak link that was the cause.

In the case of Logos, well, it must be driving your folks nuts. Logos works well for some with older gear, less Ram, for some, not well at all.

For some with newer gear, it works great, some, not well at all.

There has to be a reason, there is a cause, it just hasn't been found for you yet. Often we tend to treat symptoms without finding root cause. Imho this has been and is plaguing Logos.

Perhaps there could be some sort of program that could be run on machines that have an unusual number of issues. ( Owner permission required I would guess) A program that would give you the information you need to look at what is happening with these machines/installs and the interaction between : User/Use/Install/Hardware/Memory/Gpu/Internet/other programs and operating system settings.

I for one would be more than happy to provide any information from my machine, that might help Logos and thus, other owners into the future.

Perhaps non-Apple memory causes a "ever so slight" change and this affects Logos on those machines, things of this nature.

Ok, I will close now. As One who has "busted your chops" by complaining about Logos, I wanted to also offer something other than "just complaints" ( well, and my money-smile).

You have the best Library system available , yet, the future is not bright if you cannot deliver that Library well into the future. As you pointed out, the Iphone hit and other handset makers that were on top, now fight to survive.

Why?

Apple does one thing better than anyone else and brought that to making a different handset, they pay attention to details, they try to do things the very best way they can . They do this because they know, people vote with their money.

Thanks again for a great post, Pray I have not spoken too far out of turn, I mean no offense at all and, hope you come to know even greater success.

 

Posts 5315
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 9:26 PM

Yes well I have never had Logos 4 work flawlessly for me.. It almost has never let me quit normally, always with a forced quit or unexpectedly quit. 70% of the time i can get most of my daily use done with no issues (using stable release last night it keep unexpectedly quitting on me so I am very much looking forward to the next beta). I was a user of Accordance many years before i ever had logos resources, I like both programs and could never imagine not having both. As I said earlier in a perfectly interchangeable world I would love to have Logos resources in Accordance, but I no that is never going to happen. Logos mac is getting better in many ways and I am willing to wait for it to become better.

-Dan

Posts 1955
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 15 2012 1:03 AM

Bob Pritchett:
Moreover, while I completely agree that we have performance and stability and parity issues we still need to address, the Mac user base does appear (based on what we see from inside Logos) to be split into "it never works for me" and "it always works for me" camps.

I think your analysis might be a bit too binary. Maybe I'm the only one in the Logos ecosystem that is in this spot, but I'm in a third camp. It works for me, but I experience regular issues. The experience is not what I expect from full release software.

I also know from giving technical support that there is a percentage of users who will never take the time to file bug reports or call in, particularly if they got the job done in the end. Regardless...

I used Logos for Mac last weekend for research and crashed it twice. I found three UI issues. I reported three of the five things I found. My Mac is a few years old, but the problems of everything else installed on it... and I mean this literally, combined together does not give me this sort of experience.  Logos 4 Mac is the single biggest most problematic software package I have by miles. I'm not exaggerating this and I wasn't abusing the software last weekend! :)  If the software was beta and version 4.0 was only months old, this could be understood. But it is not.   

So, did it work for me?  Yes, I got my work done, but the experience wasn't what I expected, plus it cost me time and effort.  A huge amount?  No and it does remind me of my earlier Windows days when I built our own machines. We got the BSOD regularly, but the fun of building and experimenting was too much fun to care about frequent issues, bugs, lost work and rebooting while we did our computing.  When I got a bit older, I moved onto other pursuits and started to want our computers to 'just work'. Being from this technical background, I know very good and well computers will never be perfect (a quick check the OSX forums on the Apple website will confirm this), but I expect more now.  So whether Logos likes that or not, there are users who want it to 'just work' at least on par with the other software packages on the OSX platform.

What I find extraordinary is that the release notes do show in general way more bugs being fixed on the Mac than Windows platform. So I know you guys are trying.  Question is, why? Are things being broken as much as they are being fixed?  Is it just the deeper that you dig the more you find?

In the meantime, you're welcome to keep beating us up here in the forums, threatening to switch to competitors, return the product, etc. )

Going back to the alpha days, over the past four years I wouldn't even venture to guess how many screenshots and logs that I have sent in. The critique has always been aimed at getting better because I thought I had shared vision for where you were going. (which I assume is the kind of customers Logos would like, particularly when it comes to testing) I had a high sense of ownership, but I'm certainly not going to beat anyone up over a piece of software because life is too short. Logos 4 is, what it is and I am at a point of diminishing returns here particularly if this is how critique is now taken. After all, it's just a tool to get something done which could be better. Thanks for listening.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 15 2012 4:50 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Perhaps non-Apple memory causes a "ever so slight" change and this affects Logos on those machines, things of this nature.

Interesting possibility, but I have few real problems—more annoyances than problems—and the RAM in my desktop is mostly third party—1 GB Apple 10GB 3rd party. Of course, it could depend on which 3rd party supplier was used.

Posts 119
Ross Durham | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 15 2012 10:06 AM

Donovan Palmer's post perfectly summarizes my experience and concerns.  (Since machine specs have come up, I have a Mid 2010 Mac Book Pro with RAM maxed out and the 2nd fastest process option.)  

***I think that Logos need to exegete and find application in each and every one of his first four paragraphs.  

Donovan R. Palmer:

 

Bob Pritchett:
Moreover, while I completely agree that we have performance and stability and parity issues we still need to address, the Mac user base does appear (based on what we see from inside Logos) to be split into "it never works for me" and "it always works for me" camps.

I think your analysis might be a bit too binary. Maybe I'm the only one in the Logos ecosystem that is in this spot, but I'm in a third camp. It works for me, but I experience regular issues. The experience is not what I expect from full release software.

I also know from giving technical support that there is a percentage of users who will never take the time to file bug reports or call in, particularly if they got the job done in the end. Regardless...

I used Logos for Mac last weekend for research and crashed it twice. I found three UI issues. I reported three of the five things I found. My Mac is a few years old, but the problems of everything else installed on it... and I mean this literally, combined together does not give me this sort of experience.  Logos 4 Mac is the single biggest most problematic software package I have by miles. I'm not exaggerating this and I wasn't abusing the software last weekend! :)  If the software was beta and version 4.0 was only months old, this could be understood. But it is not.   

So, did it work for me?  Yes, I got my work done, but the experience wasn't what I expected, plus it cost me time and effort.  A huge amount?  No and it does remind me of my earlier Windows days when I built our own machines. We got the BSOD regularly, but the fun of building and experimenting was too much fun to care about frequent issues, bugs, lost work and rebooting while we did our computing.  When I got a bit older, I moved onto other pursuits and started to want our computers to 'just work'. Being from this technical background, I know very good and well computers will never be perfect (a quick check the OSX forums on the Apple website will confirm this), but I expect more now.  So whether Logos likes that or not, there are users who want it to 'just work' at least on par with the other software packages on the OSX platform.

 

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