Jesus Realizes...That The Apostles Are Still Sinners!!!

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Peter Lever | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Sep 13 2012 2:18 PM

"John 16:7 will not come to you Jesus realizes that it is time for His disciples to carry on His work. The disciples could not have God’s presence dwell in them while still sinners—He needed to die for that to be so. 

Barry, J. D., Grigoni, M. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Jn 16:7). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software."

1. In this note, the statement that Jesus is telling something He is just realizing is a presumption.

2. Again, the statement that the Apostles who have already believed in Him are not justified by faith until the cross is a grave theological error, and a heresy. [Even by standards of Catholic Theology I think so since this statement makes the cross a definite point of justification, as opposed to having faith plus good works lifelong.]

This is adding to the word of God. Notes need to explain the meaning, and where necessary give divergent viewpoints, but this is extreme case of reading into the passage, thwarting it, and presenting muddled theology.

The more I read the Faithlife Study Bible, the more it is becoming the most suspect book in my Logos Library. I have books from divergent theological viewpoints and religions, but they are clearly branded as such and are more consistent in what they claim themselves to be.

Quite scary.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 2:27 PM

Welcome to the forums, Peter.

No offense, but I'm reading Barnabas and I almost dropped my PC when I read just how sinful the apostles really were.

And Barnabas was in the early alexandrian Bible (plus the Logos library of course).

Scary (too).

(I already got rid of FSB for the same reason; someone(s) helping out the original NT authors).


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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 3:19 PM

DMB:
I'm reading Barnabas and I almost dropped my PC when I read just how sinful the apostles really were.
Hm. I'm not sure this is the point here. 

 

Peter's objections go towards

 

  1. Jesus "realizing" (which could be understood as denying his divine personality which included knowing what was the case, what was inside people and what would happen) and 
  2. the disciples "being still sinners" precluding the Holy Spirit/God's presence in them.  

 

1. may just be sloppy wording and should be corrected, whereas re 2. I think the explanation goes beyond the text into a strange direction. Jesus talks not about his sinful disciples precluding the Spirit to come, but the fact that Jesus wasn't gone (which includes cross, resurrection and ascension). Commentators and other SBs treat the potential misreading that two of the Trinity can't be in one sphere of the world and point that  Jesus' work needed to be completed before he would send the spirit, however it seems overdone to suggest that sin in the life of the disciples was the real reason behind this. I'm not sure about Peter's speculation that they were "saved by faith" prior to the cross (although the NT letters claim this for Abraham and other OT saints), but this question doesn't come up here either. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from the womb and the Spirit came upon David and others, even Saul, in the OT - and I would understand some NT stories as well as teachings (John's letters, Corinthians, maybe Rm 7) to the end that sin can/will be in the life of believers that have the Holy Spirit. Jesus doesn't even talk about sin with respect to his disciples here.

I put up a Community Note for FSB Users to see and potentially discuss.

 

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Michael Grigoni | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 3:20 PM

Peter,

Thanks for bringing this note to our attention. We agree that it isn’t as clear as it could have been and apologize for any confusion it may be causing. We’ll revise this note which will be reflected in the next FSB update. Once this update goes live, I encourage you to look at the revision and let us know if we’ve addressed your concerns. You can forward your feedback to editor@logos.com.

Thanks again.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 5:39 PM

Peter Lever:

"John 16:7 will not come to you Jesus realizes that it is time for His disciples to carry on His work. The disciples could not have God’s presence dwell in them while still sinners—He needed to die for that to be so. 

Barry, J. D., Grigoni, M. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Jn 16:7). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software."

1. In this note, the statement that Jesus is telling something He is just realizing is a presumption.

2. Again, the statement that the Apostles who have already believed in Him are not justified by faith {...}

Quite scary.

Welcome Peter,

But sadly, you will find that many theology’s are muddled with presumptions. Should we commit and say that this is a presumption, then, we would find many other presumptions that we have made as well.

My first point for discussion is your first (1): “Can you undeniably prove that Jesus knew[Jn 16:7] this before now?”

Second, as towards (2): The Cross is most definitely a point of Justification, by almost every recorded 'christian' religion there is today. Even the Sacrifice that is in the OT points to the shedding of blood as a means of Atonement, thus the Cross. Christ made the statement ‘…ye of little faith…” speaking to the Apostles in direct connection to their faith. Christ also stated “…believe in me….the works that I do…” thus again speaking to the “faith” of that generation, thus to carry on. [do a search on “believe in me” and read the many times Jesus used it and how he used it]

*****It’s not the notes that really need adjusted, it is how we read and understand the message that God gave us through His Beloved Son. Heb 1:1,2****

Thats my starbucks $1.50

R4m

{"Jesus doesn't even talk about sin with respect to his disciples here". ---John 16:9}

hmmmm. It is a passage that demonstrates a path to the meaning.....

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 8:30 PM

Peter Lever:
This is adding to the word of God. Notes need to explain the meaning, and where necessary give divergent viewpoints,

I enjoy collecting and reading various "study Bibles" but am always keenly aware where the scripture ends and the commentary starts. We must never ascribe inspiration to the commentary, no matter how much admiration we hold for the commentator.

I have major problems with both points you have raised in this instance and agree with your objections.

a little off-topic: I would love to have the Strand Study Bible in my Logos library.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 9:11 PM

Peter Lever:
Jesus realizes that it is time for His disciples

Peter Lever:
He is just realizing is a presumption

Point of grammar: you changed the form of the verb from "realizes" to "is realizing" ... the FSB is not necessarily saying what you think it is saying.

Which gives me an opportunity to share unofficially a file on the verb forms in English which others might find useful for Hebrew, Greek, etc. ...

0638.English verbal system.docx

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 6:55 AM

Hmmm ... MJ ... you're an expert on this whole area, including semantics and human-to-human interfacing.

In the original text, the 'realizes' is descriptive and in common usage an implied thought process. Most(?) readers would see the usage as somewhere between possible to probable. And indeed similar usage is in the NT where a past event is in present tense.

But depending on ones conclusions from the other Jesus-text, one could also conclude 'improbable', as well as 'what's FSB's motive/theology?' when the text doesn't apparently see the need to go down this road.

Mick above noted my 'Barnabas'; I introduced it because early Christian writers were similarly grappling with the before/after timing for the disciples and what it meant. Again, one arrives at the semantics and human-to-human interface. When Barnabas threw out the comment as fact, had his readers already done the math (as FSB seems to imply today).

I know ... I'm being picky but I do draw much from watching the early fathers' struggles (and now FSB as well).

 


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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 7:53 AM

Room,

Room4more:
many theology’s are muddled with presumptions.
 
Room4more:
Can you undeniably prove that Jesus knew[Jn 16:7] this before

I think, we should refrain from discussing theology in depth here. Maybe you can invite Peter to your "discussion of the trinity" group. However, just for the record I'll post my understanding that the FSB's statement of faith would require the notes to fully reflect a trinitarian theology as well as the divine personality of Jesus.

They may discuss verses that are difficult for trinitarians and may freely include that some people understand them diffently than the orthodox heritage of the church, I'm all for that, but they shouldn't introduce doubtful language in areas where it is not warranted.

That said, there have been various speculations about Jesus' divinity while he was on earth and what he did/didn't know - this may be the starting point for a sidebar or a LBD article (maybe they exist already), but the text here does not even warrant a discussion of Jesus realizing something. The note editor just used this as a springboard to jump into a thought about the disciples and the Holy Spirit.  

Mick

 

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 8:58 AM

Peter Lever:

Jesus realizes that it is time for His disciples to carry on His work. . . .

1. In this note, the statement that Jesus is telling something He is just realizing is a presumption.

I realize that you may not have thought of this, but the word "realize" here does not necessarily imply "become aware of something one did not previously know." In fact, in checking my Merriam-Webster, that use of the word is not even listed. Concise OED gives 2 ideas as one definition: "1 become fully aware of as a fact; understand clearly." But "become...aware..." is not the only way this word is used, even in common US English. The FSB phrase, as I read it, simply says "Jesus is fully aware that it is time for His disciples..."

What I'm saying is that the word "realize" does not necessarily imply becoming aware of something one did not previously know. Maybe you didn't realize that. Wink

Peter Lever:

The disciples could not have God’s presence dwell in them while still sinners—He needed to die for that to be so. . . .

 

2. Again, the statement that the Apostles who have already believed in Him are not justified by faith until the cross is a grave theological error, and a heresy.

Once again, the statement in the FSB does not necessarily imply that the disciples were not justified prior to Jesus' crucifixion. It is a simple theological statement, not necessarily tied to the chronology of events here. What the general statement says is that Jesus' death on the cross is necessary for the in-filling of the Spirit. That seems to me like a generally accepted theological statement.

The fact that you drew your conclusions calls for clearer writing on the part of the FSB staff, but does not suggest bad or sloppy theology.

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Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 9:35 AM

NB.Mick:
I think, we should refrain from discussing theology in depth here.

Awhile ago I would have agreed with this when Logos was just a software company, But now Logos has become a publisher of theological works, and in keeping with the Logos imperative that all discussions pertain to Logos products, it now seems that discussing the merits and content of such products does indeed have a place here more than anywhere else.

 

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 11:25 AM

Richard ... I think you're digging Jesus in deeper. 'Became fully aware'? Now the theological problem is spreading to 'fully' and 'became'.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 11:25 AM

DMB:
Hmmm ... MJ ... you're an expert on this whole area, including semantics and human-to-human interfacing.

Sorry for coming across that way. My training is philology/philosophy, my work history programming (including some teaching), my avocations - storytelling, poetry, logic and liturgy. one side of my family is planted firmly in farming, the other side in academia. Human-to-human interfacing is not my strong suit - I'm too obsessed with precision. Your comments both in your original post in this thread and here are more informative re: Biblical interpretation.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 11:27 AM

I don't think you 'came across that  way' ... I think you ARE far more informed than me in these areas (and many others too)! We're lucky for your help.


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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 1:24 PM

DMB:

Richard ... I think you're digging Jesus in deeper. 'Became fully aware'? Now the theological problem is spreading to 'fully' and 'became'.

I want to assume that you're intentionally distorting what I said for the sake of humor.

In case you misunderstood, I meant to say that the range of meaning of the word "realize" is not limited to "become aware" and sometimes simply means "is aware," or even simply "knows." When you or I respond to someone with the phrase "Yes, I realize that," we definitely do not mean "Yes, I just now became aware of that," rather, "Yes, I already know that." My assumption is that the FSB author here was using the word "realize" as a synonym for "know," "know full well," or "be fully aware of."

I realize that the word "realize" can be used in both ways, but not at the same time.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 4:23 PM

NB.Mick:

I think, we should refrain from discussing theology in depth here. Maybe you can invite Peter to your "discussion of the trinity" group. However, just for the record I'll post my understanding that the FSB's statement of faith would require the notes to fully reflect a trinitarian theology as well as the divine personality of Jesus.

So here’s the dilemma, the FSB statement and the note in question are so contradictory, its like reading about the Trinitarian theology all over again, but in a nut-shell. Should your statement even reflect the slightest coercion between a Trinitarian theology, as thus the FSB, then we would not be having a semantically based conversation within the confines of this thread.

The note in question appears to be the true reflection of the mind of Christ, as so stated by Paul’s words and other Apostles’ writings {those mentioned in the Scriptures – not the make believe ones} as Divinely guided by the Spirit of God, this also fulfills the Prophecy’s concerning Christ as given in the OT.

 

No one was/is seeking to discuss theology in depth here, but rather as I gathered from the OP, possibly a clarification and possibly a correction to the note – as to which follows the FSB’s theological statement.

I think you mis-read, or missed it…but then I could be wrong.

[edit: the Scriptures are clear in that "...without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins..." Heb 9:22 seems to clearly demonstrate that Christ is aware that there must be a 'sacrifice" in order to for Us to be "saved" by the whole of the passage here in Jn 16. So yes it may be possible that the Apostles "were still sinners" untill the Crucifixtion, Burial, and Resurrection....]

 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 15 2012 2:04 AM

Room4more:
No one was/is seeking to discuss theology in depth here, but rather as I gathered from the OP, possibly a clarification and possibly a correction to the note

Then we are in agreement.

Room4more:
yes it may be possible that the Apostles "were still sinners" untill the Crucifixtion, Burial, and Resurrection
I didn't question that.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 15 2012 4:05 AM

NB.Mick:

Room4more:
No one was/is seeking to discuss theology in depth here, but rather as I gathered from the OP, possibly a clarification and possibly a correction to the note

So then: What’s your point?

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 15 2012 4:22 AM

Paul Golder:

NB.Mick:
I think, we should refrain from discussing theology in depth here.

Awhile ago I would have agreed with this when Logos was just a software company, But now Logos has become a publisher of theological works, and in keeping with the Logos imperative that all discussions pertain to Logos products, it now seems that discussing the merits and content of such products does indeed have a place here more than anywhere else. 

Paul,

You are absolutely correct. I couldn't agree more.

By the way, it would be interesting to read a slight poll on how many discuss the sunday sermon on the way home....?

R4m

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 15 2012 5:01 AM

Room4more:

By the way, it would be interesting to read a slight poll on how many discuss the sunday sermon on the way home....?

Total thread hijack, but an interesting one. At my church we discuss the sermon during the worship service, immediately following the sermon, for about 10-15 minutes. I love it! It makes the sermons more memorable, and I'm more likely to apply them in my life in the coming weeks. In my parents' church they have an optional time of discussion of the sermon after the service, after a short break for coffee and fellowship; they return to the sanctuary and chew it over with the pastor, with Q&A and contributing their personal reflections on the message for up to half an hour. That's great too. Not dissimilar to our model, but we weave ours into the service so it ends up being shorter.

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