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This post has 94 Replies | 4 Followers

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Nov 22 2009 8:05 AM

I realize everyone is in love w/ 4...but I'm not.  It may have plenty of capability, but it is loaded with extraneous crap and despite obvious effort to give it plenty of options, it rarely seems to do what I want, in the way I want.  There are some things that may potentially become useful to me, but getting to that point is going to be arduous and take weeks or even months.  The "look" everyone else loves bugs me...even though I can't put my finger on just why.  I know it has something to do with the upscale "KIndle-like" gray scale approach.  Maybe it also has to do with the fact that the slick look of the presentation is befuddled with incessant "busy-ness".  As I've mentioned in other posts, having ADD, therefore I don't want to see ANYTHING unless I need it...but I would like to have access to things with one or two button clicks.  Also, I don't want to type anything in order to navigate--to me typing to navigate is failure.  I shouldn't ever have to type anything except my own notes and the occasional search.  Morris Proctor's entire series of videos begins with "type in the verse you are starting with".  I NEVER do that...I often don't know know exactly what verse I want to go to or study--I either start from a search or I simply open my Bible, SCROLL with my MOUSE to where I wish to begin, and read.  That said, the search that is created by typing in the "home page passage box" is something I ought to be able to generate with a right click and left click, and in certain cases (if more than a single verse is desired), a highlight.  Is this possible, and if so how?

The particular issue I have in mind right now is the "ribbon" on the home page.  To me it's like a recepticle for unwanted junk mail.  I have picked my prefered bible: NASB.  That's never going to change, so I want the "CHOOSE YOUR PREFERED BIBLE!!!" to disappear...forever.  The box next to that...I have no idea what it is or why it is and don't care...but it keeps inviting me to read mess I don't care about, like a Catholic Lectionary.  I want it to disappear too.  I don't have time nor interest in "Reading Plans"...I want that to disappear.  And I don't have near enough time to read the thousands of things I want to read, much less someone-I-don't-know's "Reading List"...so I want that unwanted suggestion to go "bye-bye" as well.  The whole ribbon should be blank as a fresh sheet of paper...and stay that way.  How do I make that happen?

Another thing I just noticed: when I float my bible in a panel so I can read without having the annoyance of all those other crammed windows, why, when I send it back to the Bible window, does it go to the final position on the right side?  Each time I have to manually drag it back to first position on the left.  Why can't it just go back where it came from?

The one thing I really do like about 4, and frankly it was a loooong time coming, is the "one-click" to open my favorite Bible.  I have added the NASB icon to the top bar and in that one act have derived the bulk of the rare satisfaction I've received thus far from 4.  I expect familiarity will improve my demeanor eventually, but right now the "whiz bang" is far outweighed by "whiff"...as in "swing and miss".

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 9:38 AM

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 9095
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 10:18 AM

Robert Pavich:
here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

Yes

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 140
Mark Allison | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 10:28 AM

Sticking with Logos 3 is only a good idea if Logos promises to support it indefinitely. 

Posts 9095
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 10:49 AM

Mark Allison:
Sticking with Logos 3 is only a good idea if Logos promises to support it indefinitely. 

I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

However if you bought an upgrade to 4.0 and don't like it then return it for a refund. Once 3.0 is no longer supported, then try switching to the newest version and see if that better suits your needs. No point in on-going frustration or disappointment.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 271
Don | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 11:31 AM
Have you tried making a layout that does not include the home page? Maybe with the search page and your preferred bible?
Posts 170
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 12:17 PM

You can skip the home page by opening the customize dialog box (customize at the lower left corner) and uncheck show home page. Then it gives you the same screen it had when you last logged out.  This option would at least mean that you do not need to see the offending ribbon.  

Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB  and iMAC

Posts 2703
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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 12:22 PM

Robert Pavich:

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

Agree Yes

Ted

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 12:53 PM

Don, and Robert's suggestions should do the job as far as the ribbon is concerned. 

I was NOT an imediate fan of L4.  It was mainly due to the fact that I was soo used to L3.  L4 doesn't do things the same way so it WAS indeed (and in some cases still is) frustrating.  That being said, I am liking L4 more and more every week and expect that to continue.

Posts 97
Greg Gray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 1:10 PM

Have you watched all the videos?

As has been mentioned, V4 is very different than V3.  It is not intended to work at all like the previous version, so we are required to learn the way it is intended to be used.

 

Also, some of your frustrations have been noted by many, and I imagine in time will be addressed.  Logos4 is not a finished product, but rather a work in progress.  The most necessary features are present and the rest is being added almost weekly.  It might be good to come back at Logos 4 in a couple of months - at the rate things have been progressing, you might have a very different experience.

 

Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 1:15 PM

Robert Pavich:
here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

What an ungracious response!  Surely the gift of encouragement is not known among you and your supporters.

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 487
John Duffy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 1:27 PM

Regarding David's points, the things that bug him bug me too, and the things that he likes, I like.  Yet, there's still a good bit more that I like about Logos 4, and a good bit more that I think still needs work on too.  I just think that it was released with too much not right, and it's causing a fair bit of frustration in places.  But I think that the development team needs our support to have time to (hopefully) address these, even though the product seems to have been released too early. 

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 1:57 PM

Robert Pavich:

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

 

Ouch - certainly no hint of Charity here.  A little tolerance and understanding is, I think, not an unreasonable expectation..

David,

While I don't suffer from ADHD, I share some of your concerns - and as I've mentioned elsewhere, the idea of a typing-based interface as the only option for some things is baffling.  I'm hopeful that since many have expressed concern with some of the same things you've mentioned, the folks at Logos will take note and make some changes. 

I hope you don't give up on the product, though.  Keep up the dialogue, and try to make a difference.  If not you, then who?

I have to admit, I was quite surprised at how "unfinished" Logos4 is.  The glass-is-half-full folks among us call it a "work in progess".  That said, since development and tuning still seem to be underway, we can take advantage of that and press for those things we  think need fixing.

Blessings

Jim D.

 

 

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:01 PM

JimDunne:

Robert Pavich:

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

 

 

Ouch - certainly no hint of Charity here.  A little tolerance and understanding is, I think, not an unreasonable expectation..

 

Jim,

what's not charitable about the most sensible solution to his problem?

 

He spent 3 paragraphs talking about how Logos wasn't floating his boat....

 

I suggested rather than keep wearing those ill fitting shoes and complaining....why not buy a pair of shoes you'd be happy with?

It might have been A LITTLE different had he said:

 


"I'm new to logos and I'm a little frustrated...I need to do these X amount of things and I cannot seem to find out how to do them....can someone help?"

 

That sure is a looooonnnggg way from the tone and content of his post...is it not? How about charity begins at home post?

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:05 PM

Alex Scott:

Robert Pavich:
here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

What an ungracious response!  Surely the gift of encouragement is not known among you and your supporters.

 

David Paul,

Please remember these responses do not represent the official Logos response to your frustrations. Because of responses like this I was ready to throw in the towel on Logos by Friday of the lunch week. I was so happy and excited as I ordered L4 Monday morning, it felt like a celebration, but by Friday it felt like a funeral. It seemed to me that the Logos I had grown to know and love had died, but then I remembered that these were just over zealous users, not Logos the company.

Be assured you are not the only person that has found L4’s initial release less than impressive. Everything you have mentioned others had pointed out as well. In addition, some of the problems are not just that you don’t have a new enough computer or because you have not read every single forum post or watched every video or that you are too tied to how L3 worked. There are some things that just don’t work well in this program, the help file is incomplete and it runs slow on even the best computers. All the “rah-rah this is the greatest thing since sliced bread” talk will not change these facts.

That said, I do see lots of potential in L4 and believe it is headed in the right direction. I encourage you to continue working with it. Despite how I felt after the first week, I do still believe in Logos as a company and trust that they will take our concerns seriously. The bottom line is this: The fact that you are having a problem is a problem. The fact that many people are having similar problems is an even greater problem. Users can afford to treat others dismissively, but Logos if they want to stay in business cannot. We are not a bunch of crazies to be made fun of and called names; we are paying customers who have legitimate concerns.

I also want to remind you that the behavior of some beta testers is not representative of all. Most have been very helpful and have understood that people’s frustrations have perhaps made them state things more strongly than they should have. I know that my frustration caused me to do so and I am grateful to those who where understanding enough to overlook some of my words and see the real underlying issues. Please note that some of the responses you have received so far are honest attempt to help you.

 

.

 

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:11 PM

John Duffy:

I just think that it was released with too much not right, and it's causing a fair bit of frustration in places.  But I think that the development team needs our support to have time to (hopefully) address these, even though the product seems to have been released too early. 

Well said - my thoughts as well. 

I wonder - those of us who migrated from 3.x are already on-board with Logos, so to speak.  But how will someone who's completely new to the product react to the current state of things?  I really hope that this doesn't backfire on Logos. 

Blessings,

Jim D.

Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:12 PM

JimDunne:
the idea of a typing-based interface as the only option for some things is baffling.

is entering references the main thing you find typing is necessary?

I'm struggling to see the points David made as true. You can display a simple, bar bones interface when you start up. He would never have to see the ribbon again. I don't see how entering text is any different then 3.0, though maybe its just because I preferred to enter them in manually rather then clicking drop-downs. It seems like F11 is exactly what he is talking about to fix the complaint he has with floating windows. If he prefers to scroll to his exact verse then in the bible pane simply show the table of contents and click on the chapter he wants.

Maybe he just caught a minute of frustration and put it on the forum. I've certainly done that. I was going to reply earlier with some suggestions but I really didn't get the idea that he was looking for suggestions to his problems, but rather his point was to stress how it was not designed for him. Again, I apologize if I read it wrong. There were a couple of questions there and if he would like some tips on how to do something, or yourself, I would be happy to give what advise I can, assuming I can find this thread again :-) I'm getting buried.

Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:14 PM

JimDunne:
I wonder - those of us who migrated from 3.x are already on-board with Logos, so to speak.  But how will someone who's completely new to the product react to the current state of things?  I really hope that this doesn't backfire on Logos. 

A member of my congregation who is taking masters courses by correspondence purchased Platinum. He knows nothing of 3.0. He is blown away by the capabilities of the program. To him, he knows nothing of what is missing because he never had them before. He'll just be pleasantly surprised when they come :-)

Posts 170
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:15 PM

David

 

I would like to have an idea of what level of computer jock and bible scholar you are.   From my experience with LOGOS it is not for those who want to just read a verse or so once in an while and who have no sophistication with a computer.  I have many friends to whom I would not recommend LOGOS for lack of computer savvy and/or time available.   For those I tend to recommend e-sword, it's free (Windows only) or minimal cost ($29 to add the NIV, for example). It was designed to be very easy to use, there is a menu bar on the left where you can locate a book by pressing its abbreviation, when the abbreviation opens there is a list of chapters, press your chapter and you are there. The bibles in use are all in a tab at the top. It has user-defined study guides (linked to verses) and topic guides (not linked).  

I can show a very unsophisticated user how to use e-sword to good effect in 30 min or so (depending on how long it takes to boot his computer).  It can easily be downloaded and installed in another 30 min via high speed.

It took me several days of watching videos and practice to get to where I am with LOGOS 4, adequate but definitely not a competent expert.  And I was fairly good with LOGOS 3 when I started (which, in retrospect, might have slowed me down ).   Remember James 1:2-5 trials are a joy that gives you patience which leads to maturity. Pray for wisdom.  

 

Edit:  P.S. When I first tried to use LOGOS 4 I would have echoed David's remarks on these and MANY more aspects of the new release. Thankfully I did not think to post to this forum until I gave it a bit more of a trial. I think that LOGS is a fantastic resource for exegetical studies and for general Bible and  theology study (I have tried/seen several others) . But it is not for everyone.  RLP

Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB  and iMAC

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:18 PM

Alex Scott:
What an ungracious response!  Surely the gift of encouragement is not known among you and your supporters.

 

Ungracious?

How in the world is ungracious to suggest that rather than cry about what piece of crap this software is that he just "get his money back and buy what he wants?"

It seems very infantile to come to a message board and INSTEAD OF ASKING FOR HELP to use phrases like:

Loaded with extranous crap

It rarely does what i want

It's arduous and could take weeks or even months

befuddled with insessant busy-ness

typing to navigate is a failure

receptacle for unwanted junk mail

I have no idea what it is nor do I care.

I don't have time to read someones reading plan

whiz bang is far outweighed by whiff...

 

Not only does that not sound like an adult who's speaking, it's not anything thats either constructive nor is it an actual question about how to do certain things that he needs to get done...

 

HENCE MY SUGGESTION to get something that would fulfill his expectations....

 

From what I see, there is one person who is not being very charitable but it's not me.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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