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Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:19 PM

P. Keith Larson:
There are some things that just don’t work well in this program, the help file is incomplete and it runs slow on even the best computers. All the “rah-rah this is the greatest thing since sliced bread” talk will not change these facts.

I agree with these points as weaknesses and still think L4 is the best Bible software I have ever used.

P. Keith Larson:
I also want to remind you that the behavior of some beta testers is not representative of all.

I will stick up a bit for Bob here. If you ask a question in a tone that comes across as wanting an answer, He is more then happy to give one to the best of his knowledge. Granted, his knowledge is small, but about 10% of the time he's actually quite pleasant. :-)

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:27 PM

Philip Spitzer:
Granted, his knowledge is small, but about 10% of the time he's actually quite pleasant. :-)

 

And you thought I'd just let that go? Wink

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:28 PM

Philip Spitzer:

JimDunne:
I wonder - those of us who migrated from 3.x are already on-board with Logos, so to speak.  But how will someone who's completely new to the product react to the current state of things?  I really hope that this doesn't backfire on Logos. 

A member of my congregation who is taking masters courses by correspondence purchased Platinum. He knows nothing of 3.0. He is blown away by the capabilities of the program. To him, he knows nothing of what is missing because he never had them before. He'll just be pleasantly surprised when they come :-)

Phil,

I'm really, really  glad to hear that.  I hope that's consistent across the new user community.  I really want Logos to succeed. 

Jim D. 

 

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:35 PM

Robert Pavich:

JimDunne:

Robert Pavich:

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

 

 

Ouch - certainly no hint of Charity here.  A little tolerance and understanding is, I think, not an unreasonable expectation..

 

 

Jim,

what's not charitable about the most sensible solution to his problem?

 

He spent 3 paragraphs talking about how Logos wasn't floating his boat....

 

I suggested rather than keep wearing those ill fitting shoes and complaining....why not buy a pair of shoes you'd be happy with?

It might have been A LITTLE different had he said:

 


"I'm new to logos and I'm a little frustrated...I need to do these X amount of things and I cannot seem to find out how to do them....can someone help?"

 

That sure is a looooonnnggg way from the tone and content of his post...is it not? How about charity begins at home post?

 

 

Robert,

Well, for starters, since very few of David's concerns/criticisms/complaints are either unique or unjustified, I'd say his comments were well written and showed he'd given considerable thought to his post.     

And chasing frustrated users away from the product is hardly helpful - it's not good for Logos, that's certain.  You'd better hope that all of us wearing those ill-fitting shoes find a way to get comfortable, else the shoe store may find wolves at its doors.

:)

Wow, can I lob adjectives and metaphors, or what?  :)

Peace,

Jim D.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:42 PM

Jim,

Ok..I'll try and be as clear as I can be.

If a child sat and cried about how his toy didn't work right instead of getting help, what would you say?

The fact is...he was uncharitable in his tone towards Logos WHETHER OR NOT his complaints were valid...AND INSTEAD OF SEEKING ANSWERS OR HELP...he chose to complain and whine.

I merely suggested that he might like to do something that made sense given his statements about it being crap and all.

Should I have put a smiley after my suggestion?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:43 PM

JimDunne:
since very few of David's concerns/criticisms/complaints are either unique or unjustified, I'd say his comments were well written and showed he'd given considerable thought to his post.     

I'm having a hard time coming up with a complaint from David's post that does not have a very viable solution in L4. Could you give an example of one that has no reasonable L4 solution?

Posts 14
Frederick Schaffner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:46 PM

The more Logos succeeds in meeting customers needs, complaints, etc. the better this program will become and that will beneft all of us. I held on to Logos 2 for way too long before I went to Logos 3 and I have regretted I didn't up much earlier. When I went to Logos 3 a couple of years ago I was overwhelmed with what it did, and then when I found out what it could do by going through tutorials, even a MP Seminar, I was even more overwhelmed.

L4 is much like that step from L2 to L3 and this software has the promise of even more capability. I love L3 but I want to be as effective with the scriptures as I can and I am trusting that L4 will make that even more possible.

Thanks for all the help I have received on the forum topics as well.

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:50 PM

Robert Pavich:

Ungracious?

How in the world is ungracious to suggest that rather than cry about what piece of crap this software is that he just "get his money back and buy what he wants?"

It seems very infantile to come to a message board and INSTEAD OF ASKING FOR HELP to use phrases like:

Loaded with extranous crap

It rarely does what i want

It's arduous and could take weeks or even months

befuddled with insessant busy-ness

typing to navigate is a failure

receptacle for unwanted junk mail

I have no idea what it is nor do I care.

I don't have time to read someones reading plan

whiz bang is far outweighed by whiff...

 

Not only does that not sound like an adult who's speaking, it's not anything thats either constructive nor is it an actual question about how to do certain things that he needs to get done...

 

HENCE MY SUGGESTION to get something that would fulfill his expectations....

 

From what I see, there is one person who is not being very charitable but it's not me.

Bob,

I think you need to take a deep breath and  step back a bit.  David's comments and criticisms, ill-phrased or not, were not directed at you.   They were directed at a product he's dissatisfied with.  You've responded with criticisms which clearly are directed at him, personally.  You don't (or should not) have feelings to bruise in this. 

Jim D.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:51 PM

Jim,

Here is a good example of what I'm talking about. this is taken from another current thread.

Quoting Tom:
Would someone please explain in step-by-step detail how to hyperlink a word or phrase contained in an L4 note that has been created, to a book source or Bible passage within the L4 library?  

As opposed to this method:
"this software is a real piece of junk....the hyperlink capability is crap! It doesn't do anything that I want! I tried hyper link and it just won't. Logos really dropped the ball on this one...instead of wow....I got snooze!!

Now which one sounds like an adult wrote it?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:16 PM

JimDunne:

Bob,

I think you need to take a deep breath and  step back a bit.  David's comments and criticisms, ill-phrased or not, were not directed at you.   They were directed at a product he's dissatisfied with.  You've responded with criticisms which clearly are directed at him, personally.  You don't (or should not) have feelings to bruise in this. 

Jim D.

 

Jim,

my feelings aren't bruised nor are they hurt..

Now are his comments "well articulated" or are they "ill phrased"?

 

I keep pointing out that he had two choices...do something constructive OR complain in a less than adult manner.

I wouldn't even have had it go farther except that somehow you thought that my suggestion to buy another more suitable product was "uncharitable" and personally directed at me.

Who needs to take a breath?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:22 PM

Tom's question part two (from the other thread)

And so our friend "Tom" from the other thread I mentioned above...get's a "less than smooth" workaround for cutting and pasting in V4....

Does he rant? Does he call the software names?


No....this is his response to a very lengthy workaround....

 

Quoting Tom"

Philip,

Thanks so much for taking your time to respond to me regarding hyperlinking.   I am in the middle of studying for final exams right now, but later this evening I will give your instructions a try.   On the surface, however, it looks like a rather lengthy process just to create a hyperlink within the Logos 4 notes file.   It seemed very easy and quick with L3.  Is hyperlinking something that is still being perfected and worked on for Logos 4?   Regardless, I will go through your steps later tonight and see if it works for me.   I'll let you know, but thanks again for your time to help me out.

Tom

Now that's the way to voice an opinion and ask a question...nicely done Tom.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:41 PM

P. Keith Larson:
Be assured you are not the only person that has found L4’s initial release less than impressive. Everything you have mentioned others had pointed out as well. In addition, some of the problems are not just that you don’t have a new enough computer or because you have not read every single forum post or watched every video or that you are too tied to how L3 worked. There are some things that just don’t work well in this program, the help file is incomplete and it runs slow on even the best computers. All the “rah-rah this is the greatest thing since sliced bread” talk will not change these facts.

There is some truth to what you say, because L4 is still a work in progress.  Much needs to be completed (For me particularly the notes are inadequate).  As one of the beta testers I didn't do as much testing as what others did since notes are a sine qua non.  At first the morphology search was totally inadequate though that has been considerably improved (still not sure I care for the new method though).  In the beta testing there was no help file at all so that is somewhat improved even though it needs more work.  That said, part of your complaint is baseless.  L4 is not at all slow.  It is very responsive.  I enjoy the home page though I think some of the items could be rotated through the pages more rapidly.  I never used the home page at all in L3.  I also enjoy some of the new features which I understand require at least the minimum upgrade.  The "Biblical Places" have some terrific maps which are about a 10,000% improvement over those in L3.  The "tours" are interesting though I think they might grow old if overused.  I really like the "Float this Panel" option since I can have a book open in that strictly for reading while I study in the main window. 

The key item needed with L4 is patience -- patience on our part.  I'm confident Logos will get this working properly.  A number of us in the beta testing group thought they were rushing it out the door a bit early, but I'm sure they have their own reasons for having done so.  I've heard it about 365 times already, but I will repeat it once again:  "Don't forget that in the meantime you can still use L3."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 63
Jim Dunne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:52 PM

Robert Pavich:

Jim,

my feelings aren't bruised nor are they hurt..

Now are his comments "well articulated" or are they "ill phrased"?

 

I keep pointing out that he had two choices...do something constructive OR complain in a less than adult manner.

I wouldn't even have had it go farther except that somehow you thought that my suggestion to buy another more suitable product was "uncharitable" and personally directed at me.

Who needs to take a breath?

Apparently, I do.  Continuing this discussion is serving no purpose.  You're right, the rest of us are wrong.  I honestly didn't realize that expressing ones frustration with a product  in blunt language was a sign of being less than an adult.  Thanks for enlightening me. 

David should just ask for his money back from Logos, and give it to another software company.  I'm sure they'll be happy to welcome an unhappy former Logos user. 

Jim D.    

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:59 PM

Robert Pavich:

Jim,

Ok..I'll try and be as clear as I can be.

If a child sat and cried about how his toy didn't work right instead of getting help, what would you say?

The fact is...he was uncharitable in his tone towards Logos WHETHER OR NOT his complaints were valid...AND INSTEAD OF SEEKING ANSWERS OR HELP...he chose to complain and whine.

I merely suggested that he might like to do something that made sense given his statements about it being crap and all.

Should I have put a smiley after my suggestion?

Robert, I agree with all you said 100%. The interesting thing to me is, what makes those who are feeling your first post as inappropriate, or lacking charity, not seeing the really bad tone of the initial post which started this thread,? It is not a rocket science. It is very simple. Isn't it measuring with the unequal meter, as we say in Czech?

Bohuslav

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 4:02 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
It is not a rocket science. It is very simple. Isn't it measuring with the unequal meter, as we say in Czech?

Bohuslav,

Well said brother....you have a way of putting things Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 502
Randall Hartman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 4:07 PM

I too echo Robert's sentiments.  In my judgment he spoke plainly and the advice was good: if you are that frustrated just get your money back and use another program.  I don't see that as inflammatory.  Robert has always gone out of his way to help those who really want help.  His wise contributions to this forum are invaluable.

Posts 29725
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 4:18 PM

David Paul:
The particular issue I have in mind right now is the "ribbon" on the home page.  To me it's like a recepticle for unwanted junk mail.  I have picked my prefered bible: NASB.  That's never going to change, so I want the "CHOOSE YOUR PREFERED BIBLE!!!" to disappear...forever.  The box next to that...I have no idea what it is or why it is and don't care...but it keeps inviting me to read mess I don't care about, like a Catholic Lectionary.  I want it to disappear too.  I don't have time nor interest in "Reading Plans"...I want that to disappear.  And I don't have near enough time to read the thousands of things I want to read, much less someone-I-don't-know's "Reading List"...so I want that unwanted suggestion to go "bye-bye" as well.  The whole ribbon should be blank as a fresh sheet of paper...and stay that way.  How do I make that happen?

If the whole ribbon were blank and stayed that way, it would be a waste of real estate.  Think of Logos as a 1 room school - yes, we had 3 rooms for 8 grades but I had classmates who had started in a 1 room school house. Should the 5th graders complain because the printing charts are up for the 1st graders? Should the 7th graders complain about the world history timeline because they are studying American History? Should the 1st graders complain about the multiplication tables because they don't understand them?

The analogy is that the ribbon should have a set of items that put needed features in the hands of the users - users may use none, any or all of them depending upon their needs. Those who don't need them should not bother to look at them - they require no action on their part.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 4:29 PM

Suggesting a disgruntled customer to get a refund.... that doesn't seem like an "over the top" rude response to me.  Actually makes a little sense....

Posts 10746
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 6:45 PM

JimDunne:
You're right, the rest of us are wrong.

Perhaps you have not followed this thread very well. It seems that most of those who posted agreed with Robert. I have remained a lurker until now, but I have agreed with every remark Robert has made in this discussion. A few of you ("the rest of us") took it upon yourselves to teach Robert a lesson in charity. 

IMHO If anyone has been uncharitable in this discussion, it is you.

Jack

Posts 18
Steve. Kilgore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 6:47 PM

Yes

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