Upgrading

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This post has 312 Replies | 13 Followers

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:24 AM

Mitchell Borrows:
I dont know of any company that charges for there upgrades.

Mountain Lion is an upgraded OS from Lion, and you had to pay for it.

Windows 8 is an upgrade from 7, and you have to pay for it.

I could go on and on and on listing new versions. This is very standard. Everyone does this. We're not talking about incremental updates. Logos does offer those for free, just like most other companies. But like other companies, Logos charges for version upgrades. You don't know anyone who does this? I don't know anyone who *doesn't* do this. You mention iOS 6, but that's something of a different beast. Apple isn't trying to sell iOS (so you never pay for iOS to begin with), they are trying to sell iPhones and such. That's one reason new versions offer new features that only work on the new hardware: like the shiny new features of iOS 6 but it won't work on your device? It must be time to upgrade your device!

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:26 AM

Jason Hauser:
However, when you take loyal customers who have invested hundreds and often thousands of dollars in your products and platform who were sold with the promise of free software, you just pay for the resources and then you start to change that promise to, well sometime in the future we will give you new updates for free, people start to feel swindled.

I don't think we ever promised "free updates on first day forever". (Though we've delivered close to that!) We released Logos 4 three years ago, and have added substantial functionality at no charge for three years. (Not everything added was 'promised' -- much of it was new value.) You can see the free upgrades here:

http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4_Release_Notes

With Logos 5 (as with Logos 4), we're simply delaying release of a free engine update for a while, and offering a non-compulsory, optional bundle of new features and new content. If you don't want any new content, there's no problem and no broken promise. (The promise was you'd never have to pay to upgrade your software to read the books you'd already bought, and that's still true.) We're even updating Logos 4.x -- we shipped a release Monday and will probably ship a few more updates / improvements.

Jason Hauser:
Just also offer the free upgrade for those who are not currently interested in buying more books and have been loyal to this system because of the promise they would not have to pay for the software. If I knew from the beginning that the promise for free software really meant that I was simply guaranteed "some software that would just run logos but not necessarily new or current" I would not have invested in Logos like I have.

I'm sorry you misunderstood the promise, or that we miscommunicated it. It is all too easy to shorthand it to "the software is free, you just pay for books," though it's more specific than that. None-the-less, we have effectively delivered that -- and even that shorthand statement doesn't say "the free software updates will be available on day one."

The fundamental issue is that we've been offering free software updates (and free telephone support) since 1995. We actually do have a surprising number of those 1995 users who are still with us, having upgraded many times over the years. 

It costs a lot to keep updating the software, and it costs a lot to answer the phone and provide support on each new release. 

Despite that, we have offered the software free for every new release, and even for new hardware platforms (mobile, etc.). Sometimes we just delay that free release -- and the free support that will go with those free upgrades -- until after we've had a chance to sell people who want new content with the new software an "upgrade bundle."

This also helps ensure, during the upgrade cycle, that people who do buy the new content -- and thus keep us funded and in business to support the people who need no new content, and just get free engine upgrades -- can get through on the support lines, reach technical support, etc.

This isn't a broken promise or a breach of faith. It's a short delay for very practical reasons. Can you agree with me that it's not 'unfair' to keep our servers, free phone support, and overall staffing capacity available first for the people who DO buy new content, before using all those shared resources to support free downloads that don't fund ongoing operations?

We will also take this feedback to heart, and be much more careful about how we describe the "free software" engine. We can make a web page for potential customer that explains that free major engine updates (unlike the 50+ free updates to 4.x over three years) will be available only after a short delay, following the launch of reconfigured bundles.

Again, I'm sorry for the confusion and frustration.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:30 AM

Donnie Hale:
The Platinum Upgrade price for me is ~$500.

I'm sorry for the confusion that comes from re-using some package names. The Platinum Upgrade isn't what you have to get; the new Platinum happens to be a very different collection than the current Platinum, so that's the cost of the different resources. You could upgrade to the new Gold and get all the cool new data sets, the new engine, etc. at a price much lower.

(I don't know the exact number, because it's specific to what you own -- we calculate a custom price for everyone to give credit for what you already invested in.)

You could upgrade to new Silver for even less, I expect, and get all but one of the new databases, as I recall.

I can't answer on the margin question -- it's very complicated, and different for each resource depending on the contract with the publisher, the cost to produce, etc. My point was simply that nobody wants everything in a bundle -- that's why it's a bundle. :-) Because people will spend more on bundles -- even with useless things like ESPN (<smile>) -- than they'd spend purchasing ala carte. 

Posts 1896
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:32 AM

Bob Pritchett:
Again, I'm sorry for the confusion and frustration.

Bob,

In that post, you jump straight from those buying new content to free downloads. I'm confident that many here believe there is a middle ground, the "minimal crossgrade" which requires a purchase to account for the cost of the new features and databases, etc., but which includes no new resources. The belief is that this middle ground will be available after a "short delay".

I just got off the phone with a Logos sales rep. He told me that the sales staff has been told that there will never be a "minimal crossgrade" for L5 and that they have been telling customers that for the last 2 days. If that's true, that obviously does not square with what has been communicated in the forums (rightly or wrongly).

Can you confirm or deny whether there will eventually be a "minimal crossgrade"?

Thanks again,

Donnie

 

Posts 10311
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:33 AM

Oh my.


Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:33 AM

Gary Butner:

I think what most of the complainers are missing is that Silver 4 is NOT Silver 5, Gold 4 is NOT Gold 5, Platinum 4 is NOT Platinum 5, and Portfolio 4 is NOT Portfolio 5. Logos is offering both upgrades and downgrades between all packages.

Your post illustrates the kind of polemical tone that is troubling me: referring to fellow Christians as "complainers"; no, they are unhappy customers. Probably in part because they aren't understanding everything as well as they could (or perhaps because things are not communicated as well as they should). I find it a worrying trend if a company (Christian or not) takes this kind of attitude--if there are wide-spread misconceptions, then it's down to the company to communicate better--if they want to improve customer relations, which I'm sure (and hope) every company wants.

Posts 71
Paul Buckhiester | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:34 AM

This is sad.Sad

Posts 311
Michael Hite | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:35 AM

Donnie Hale:
In none of your examples do the companies say, "We'll let you buy the upgrade, but not yet.

That is true - but people that offer packed software do. I may not use Microsoft Access but it is cheaper to upgrade the entire Office suite than just the products I use regularly.

2015 13" MacBook Pro - 2 Ghz Intel i7 - 16 GB RAM - 500GB SSD - 2018 iMac Pro - 3.2GHz 8-core Xeon - both systems running OS 10.14.3 (Mojave)

 

Posts 181
Jacques | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:36 AM

Graham Criddle:

Hi Jacques

Jacques:

I noticed that the data sets are available for purchase apart from bundles. 

I don't see this - where did you find this?

Graham

I became concerned about this last night as I saw folks within these forums trying to figure out how far up they have to upgrade their bundles to get ALL of the data sets. I'm glad what was feared doesn't appear to be the whole picture...!

As I went to my own upgrade charts to see What's New for Me, I noticed which data sets were included or omitted various bundles. I thought, wow - I have to spend THAT much to get ALL the data sets? That's what it looks like at first glance.

However, as I scrolled over the indicators of the data sets (as it does with any book or set on the list), I saw more details - including 'Individual prices if purchased separately'. This certainly indicates to me, that if we are missing certain data sets that we'd like to use - we can purchase those data sets one by one! They aren't terribly expensive, like $10-$20 in most cases.

So for those of us that are upgrading from Scholar's to Bronze, or even downgrading to something less expensive, it will not mean that we'll miss out on the desired data sets. Even if we don't upgrade at all, and just use the new Logos 5 engine, we can apparently pick and choose which data sets to buy and make use of!

 

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:38 AM

Bob Pritchett:
The Platinum Upgrade isn't what you have to get; the new Platinum happens to be a very different collection than the current Platinum, so that's the cost of the different resources. You could upgrade to the new Gold and get all the cool new data sets, the new engine, etc. at a price much lower

But that is probably a reason for a lot of the upset; many of us have been loyal customers and have upgraded ourselves to gold or platinum, and now all of a sudden we aren't gold Logos users anymore, and we have to pay out another large percentage of a thousand bucks. I had assumed (wrongly, as it now turns out), that the packages upgrade with the product, and that my investment would remain current, with minor upgrade costs, not heavy re-investments.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:46 AM

Dean053:
now all of a sudden we aren't gold Logos users anymore

No one is a gold user, though some users own some version or another of the gold package. You still own the gold package, just not the same gold package currently offered. It is not new for Logos to rearrange their packages: remove this resource, add that resource, etc. But if you check the Upgrade page at http://www.logos.com/upgrade it will show what package you own - it will (should) still say gold.

Resources cost money, and I imagine whenever a user gets resources, the publishers get a check. Logos cannot automatically upgrade you to all the resources of the latest gold package without paying publishers the royalties they are due for the resources. Either Logos has to take a (massive) hit and quickly sink as a business, or they have to charge users for the resources, recouping their development cost and being able to pay royalties to the publishers.

Posts 205
LogosEmployee
Kent Hendricks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:48 AM

Jacques:

Graham Criddle:

Hi Jacques

Jacques:

I noticed that the data sets are available for purchase apart from bundles. 

I don't see this - where did you find this?

Graham

I became concerned about this last night as I saw folks within these forums trying to figure out how far up they have to upgrade their bundles to get ALL of the data sets. I'm glad what was feared doesn't appear to be the whole picture...!

As I went to my own upgrade charts to see What's New for Me, I noticed which data sets were included or omitted various bundles. I thought, wow - I have to spend THAT much to get ALL the data sets? That's what it looks like at first glance.

However, as I scrolled over the indicators of the data sets (as it does with any book or set on the list), I saw more details - including 'Individual prices if purchased separately'. This certainly indicates to me, that if we are missing certain data sets that we'd like to use - we can purchase those data sets one by one! They aren't terribly expensive, like $10-$20 in most cases.

So for those of us that are upgrading from Scholar's to Bronze, or even downgrading to something less expensive, it will not mean that we'll miss out on the desired data sets. Even if we don't upgrade at all, and just use the new Logos 5 engine, we can apparently pick and choose which data sets to buy and make use of!

The data sets will not be available individually. The only way to get the data sets is with a Logos 5 base package. We'll get the website corrected as soon as we can. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:51 AM

Kent Hendricks:
The data sets will not be available individually. The only way to get the data sets is with a Logos 5 base package. We'll get the website corrected as soon as we can. Sorry for the confusion.

To be specific, that means no minimal crossgrade?

Posts 296
Bruce Roth | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:53 AM

Ok,

Here is my 2 cents:

  1. It would have been better if Logos made it clear, (maybe on the upgrade page) that this is a special opportunity for you to upgrade from L4 to L5 and get a deal on some new resources that you don't currently have that are now part of the newly defined package. Or you can upgrade to a different package.  Also indicate that in the near future you will have the ability to do a cross upgrade (and explain what that is) if you want to wait a few weeks or so and don't want to spend the money on the resources.
  2. Explain in a market sense what the new packages are and what their equivalent was in the past.
  3. Explain that you don't loose anything of your original investment if you don't upgrade
  4. Make sure that folks understand that they need to have Gold in order to have all the new datasets

I understand the desire to not want to wait to get the latest and greatest.  It is like Bob's movie analogy or maybe like a book coming out in hardback.  I can rush out and get it now or wait till the paperback comes out.  (not quite the best analogy as the price does drop, but it does fit the waiting game idea).

I do hope that when the cross upgrade is announced that it is not after the special promotion ends as I think Bob seems to indicate in his post.  I would like to be able to make a decision at that point and decide on doing the cross upgrade or upgrade the package based on the cost of the cross upgrade vs the cost of the package upgrade.



Posts 311
Michael Hite | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:55 AM

Chris Roberts:
To be specific, that means no minimal crossgrade?

I am sorry but it means you cannot buy individual datasets - it does NOT mean they will not be offering a minimal crossgrade in the future. A number of posts from Bob Prichett have stated that a minimal crossgrade will be offered after a period of time.

 

2015 13" MacBook Pro - 2 Ghz Intel i7 - 16 GB RAM - 500GB SSD - 2018 iMac Pro - 3.2GHz 8-core Xeon - both systems running OS 10.14.3 (Mojave)

 

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:59 AM

Michael Hite:

I am sorry but it means you cannot buy individual datasets - it does NOT mean they will not be offering a minimal crossgrade in the future. A number of posts from Bob Prichett have stated that a minimal crossgrade will be offered after a period of time.

That's what I originally understood and have told people, but all Bob has said is the engine will be available, not the datasets, and Kent's word was the datasets will only be available in the base packages. The minimal crossgrade is not a base package. Would appreciate something specific from Logos letting users know what to expect.

Posts 1896
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:59 AM

Michael Hite:
A number of posts from Bob Prichett have stated that a minimal crossgrade will be offered after a period of time.

Can you point to the specific verbiage in such a post? I'm not stating that you're wrong, but his most recent post in this thread only alludes to the "free engine" being available after a "short delay". And as I've mentioned in this thread and another, the Logos sales staff believes that there will never be a minimal crossgrade; and they have been telling customers that for the past 2 days. And references to a crossgrade which were there yesterday have apparently been removed from the www.logos.com/faq page.

I'm trying to find official word from Logos management.

Donnie

 

Posts 31
Mitchell Borrows | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:03 PM

Just got off with logos and they said the same thing to me as well.

Posts 343

Seems like vanity to me, for those that don't want many new resources, but want the new features, but are almost crying over losing a "status" from Platinum, to Gold, or oh my, even lower, Silver. Do you really *feel* more superior or of a higher class just because your package has a specific name? Is it because it feels better to boast to others? Sounds carnal to me. I have Logos 4 Platinum, but if I decide to buy the Logos 5 Silver, it is not hurting my *status.* I'll still have all the resources from Logos 4 Platinum even if I no longer have the *name.* Besides, it's likely that no one else you're around is going to be more excited for you based on what name your package is called. This bantering has just been humorous to me. Big Smile

Jason Saling

Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:09 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Despite that, we have offered the software free for every new release, and even for new hardware platforms (mobile, etc.). Sometimes we just delay that free release -- and the free support that will go with those free upgrades -- until after we've had a chance to sell people who want new content with the new software an "upgrade bundle."

This also helps ensure, during the upgrade cycle, that people who do buy the new content -- and thus keep us funded and in business to support the people who need no new content, and just get free engine upgrades -- can get through on the support lines, reach technical support, etc.

This isn't a broken promise or a breach of faith. It's a short delay for very practical reasons. Can you agree with me that it's not 'unfair' to keep our servers, free phone support, and overall staffing capacity available first for the people who DO buy new content, before using all those shared resources to support free downloads that don't fund ongoing operations?

I find this very reasonable. My only problem is that it wasnt communicated and I had to search deep into the 12th page of a forum post to find it. My path started at FB where it was posted that Logos 5 was available. I was a bit surprised to see it, but I dont read every email you send and could have missed a "Logos 5 is coming soon" one. I clicked thru to check it out and see what my upgrade options are.

On the homepage, in the slider I see a big heading for Logos 5 with a learn more button underneath, so I click that button. It just reloads the page. SO I go for the Upgrade button. This gives me my personalized upgrade comparison. My particular L4 package doesnt seem to have an equivalent L5 package, so I find the one that is the least cost to upgrade and use that for comparison. I'm not interested in new resources, but I'm willing to a pay to upgrade the engine and features, so I wanted to see what $100 or so would get me.

This is where it breaks down for me. What features does my current package have that my new one will not and what features does my current one not have that I am getting for that $100? i.e. what is the net gain?

At this point I'm confused as to what I'll be gaining/losing (I know I wont lose any books). I mainly want to pay for an upgrade to the L5 feature set. If that is not available at this time, but coming later, why not provide that information so I can make an informed decision?

Currently, the only info readily available is that to upgrade to L5 requires a resource purchase. I can empathize with those who dont find out that there will be another option later until they have already purchase additional resources they didnt really want/need because they thought that was the only option only to find out in a month or two or whatever that there is another option and they had spent more money than they needed to. I'm glad I saved myself from that heartache by finding this thread, but I feel for those who dont and would understand if they felt it was a bit "shady" of logos not to have provided that info upfront.

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