Upgrading

Page 14 of 16 (313 items) « First ... < Previous 12 13 14 15 16 Next >
This post has 312 Replies | 13 Followers

Posts 31
Mitchell Borrows | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 1:53 PM

I agree just functionality.

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 1:54 PM

J. Morris, 

I've read over your thought provoking posts.  I don't know about the difference between "program" and "engine."  essentially the same.  I think what makes L5 murky is that the new datasets seem kind of like a program, but they are also resources.  We can still use L5 without them.  But if we want them, we buy a package that reflects the time and cost that went into them.  But we can still read our books and do searches and make verse lists, etc. just like L4.  

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:02 PM

J. Morris:

Janice:

Jason Saling - www.NapavineBaptist.com:

Seems like vanity to me, for those that don't want many new resources, but want the new features, but are almost crying over losing a "status" from Platinum, to Gold, or oh my, even lower, Silver. Do you really *feel* more superior or of a higher class just because your package has a specific name? Is it because it feels better to boast to others? Sounds carnal to me. I have Logos 4 Platinum, but if I decide to buy the Logos 5 Silver, it is not hurting my *status.* I'll still have all the resources from Logos 4 Platinum even if I no longer have the *name.* Besides, it's likely that no one else you're around is going to be more excited for you based on what name your package is called. This bantering has just been humorous to me. Big Smile

Is it safe to say I  agree with you?!

...  The "status" I paid for with Gold was the fully functional program I do not care what it was called.  I now have to buy the Gold package again.... to retain the use of the fully functional program.  This wasn't always the case... It is a newer trend that we were once told would not become a trend.

We do pay for the program otherwise we would be able to FULLY use it.  This semantics stuff bothers me....

 

J. Morris,

This isn't semantics. You can fully use the Logos 5 software engine for free, when it's released after the product launch. But the new data sets are not free. The Topic Guide comes with sermon outlines, those outlines are not free, they are a resource. The new clause search runs on editions of the Bible hand tagged for function. For example if you search for subject:Jesus you will find every time Jesus is mentioned as the subject, even when a pronoun is used instead of the proper name. This required hand coding (this couldn't be done with a computerized algorithm). The cost to pay people knowlagable in biblical languages cost money. These are new resources. For example the Lexham Discourse ESV Bible is essentially the ESV Reverse Interlinear, why pay for that? Because Steve Runge went in and tagged the Bible thereby enhancing the value. 

Posts 476
Travis Walter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:04 PM

Do we know how long the upgrade prices are good for?  I have $600 on pre-pub/community pricing and not sure I want to spend another $600 for Plat or even $460 for Gold considering my library is about $4K.  I'm bummed I didnt get more credit for a lot of the stuff I bought separately.

 

 

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:05 PM

Dan DeVilder:

J. Morris, 

I've read over your thought provoking posts.  I don't know about the difference between "program" and "engine."  essentially the same.  I think what makes L5 murky is that the new datasets seem kind of like a program, but they are also resources.  We can still use L5 without them.  But if we want them, we buy a package that reflects the time and cost that went into them.  But we can still read our books and do searches and make verse lists, etc. just like L4.  

I appreciate your reply.  To me Program should equal Engine (as it does to most)... It is clear though that Logos now desires a distinction in order to get out of their original promise (I had issues with this when L4 came out also). 

It is Logos' fault that they tied functionality with resources.  Good for the program?  Yes.  However... it forces a purchase...  Good for the bank?  Yes.  However, it renigs (sp?) on the original promise. 

 

I would just like honesty... Many get it... We pay for the program...   Logos please stop claiming otherwise...

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:05 PM

Ken Hicks:

This! Yes It's not about status and it never has been. It's about functionality. I don't need a whole bunch of additional commentaries I will never use (hello Wesleyan and Lange commentaries?) just to get the Sense data set to get me to full functionality if I upgrade. Everyone's mileage may vary though. Big Smile

 

J. Morris:

Jason Saling - www.NapavineBaptist.com:

Seems like vanity to me, for those that don't want many new resources, but want the new features, but are almost crying over losing a "status" from Platinum, to Gold, or oh my, even lower, Silver. Do you really *feel* more superior or of a higher class just because your package has a specific name?

...  The "status" I paid for with Gold was the fully functional program I do not care what it was called.  I now have to buy the Gold package again.... to retain the use of the fully functional program.  This wasn't always the case... It is a newer trend that we were once told would not become a trend.

We do pay for the program otherwise we would be able to FULLY use it.  This semantics stuff bothers me....

 

Just as Dan mentioned in his post (not quoted here), a fully-featured Logos 5 comes with new databases, and these databases are treated like new resources in a sense.  That means if you want to fully use L5, you will need to pay for these database resources. I believe some folks are confusing the promise of "free program updates of a specific product tier - i.e. Logos 4.x" with the introduction of a new product - i.e. Logos 5.x.  What I have read so far from Bob sounds reasonable to me.  I think Logos should address these confusions on their product page.

David

Edit:  The prices for the new L5 base packages are fantastic if you consider what you get.  But I also hope Logos will officially make a statement about a cross-grade offer for many customers who do not need additional resources in those base packages.

Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:08 PM

Janice:

Jason Saling - www.NapavineBaptist.com:

Seems like vanity to me, for those that don't want many new resources, but want the new features, but are almost crying over losing a "status" from Platinum, to Gold, or oh my, even lower, Silver. Do you really *feel* more superior or of a higher class just because your package has a specific name? Is it because it feels better to boast to others? Sounds carnal to me. I have Logos 4 Platinum, but if I decide to buy the Logos 5 Silver, it is not hurting my *status.* I'll still have all the resources from Logos 4 Platinum even if I no longer have the *name.* Besides, it's likely that no one else you're around is going to be more excited for you based on what name your package is called. This bantering has just been humorous to me. Big Smile

Is it safe to say I  agree with you?!

Seems like part of the issue is, if I am understanding correctly (and as J Morris above posted), that some of the features of the engine rely on certain data sets. Those data sets were only provided in the base packages and so to get certain features you had to have a certain package level. What I'm reading into this is in people's  minds they've (we've) tied those feature sets to the package levels and it is not clear what L5 packages equate to the L4 packages in terms of feature sets -- what package level do you need to upgrade to to keep the same feature/data sets? The obvious thing for the people witch package names that still exist is that you need to get the package with the same name.

For my case with a L4 JG package (upgraded from an L4 something else, I think KF), I can see what is included in the L5 Starter package, but I cannot tell whether or not there are data sets that I had the equivalent of in my L4 package, but are not part of starter (which seems like the closest match to my L4).

For example, there are several lines in the Feature Distribution section that are not included in starter, not listed as new to L5, and not listed as "new to you". The logical interpretation of this is if it is not new to L5, it existed in L4, and if it is not new to me, then it is something I have in my current package. Do features and data sets work the same way as resources where if you had it before you will still have it after upgrade regardless what is listed in the table?

For example, in L4 I have "The Bible Knowledge Commentary". The lowest base package in L5 that has it is sliver which is a $544 upgrade for me, but I understand that if I upgrade to just the starter, I will still have TBKC because I had it in L4 -- do all features and data sets work the same way?

What we need is a chart that lists all the L4 packages and the minimum L5 package that you should upgrade to to keep the same functionality. Not talking about resources here. Someone with L4 Platinum could upgrade to L5 Starter and still have the same resources, but at what level do they have the same functionality?

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:13 PM

J. Morris:

Dan DeVilder:

J. Morris, 

I've read over your thought provoking posts.  I don't know about the difference between "program" and "engine."  essentially the same.  I think what makes L5 murky is that the new datasets seem kind of like a program, but they are also resources.  We can still use L5 without them.  But if we want them, we buy a package that reflects the time and cost that went into them.  But we can still read our books and do searches and make verse lists, etc. just like L4.  

I appreciate your reply.  To me Program should equal Engine (as it does to most)... It is clear though that Logos now desires a distinction in order to get out of their original promise (I had issues with this when L4 came out also). 

It is Logos' fault that they tied functionality with resources.  Good for the program?  Yes.  However... it forces a purchase...  Good for the bank?  Yes.  However, it renigs (sp?) on the original promise. 

 

I would just like honesty... Many get it... We pay for the program...   Logos please stop claiming otherwise...

I guess I equate program with engine in one sense, but still see a distinction about putting together a digital resource.  But I think i get what you mean.  I guess I am personally not feeling hoodwinked by it, but I am not saying you are not correct in seeing the parsing of words, you may be correct. I am pretty sure Logos men and women decision makers are prone to error, but I confess my overall trust and appreciation for them and their work--and I hear you are trying to be nuanced as well as critiquing. Blessings to you, J.  

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 5564
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:21 PM

J. Morris:
I would just like honesty... Many get it... We pay for the program...   Logos please stop claiming otherwise...

I think most of the misunderstanding is in how users talk about this, rather than in how Logos talks about this. Here's the reality: the 'engine' is free, but to get full all the use available in the program, you need to pay. This is similar to other programs (including some freeware programs) that have modules you need to purchase in order get all the functionality possible.

This is not new to Logos. In Libronix (L3), there was further functionality that needed to be purchased to be used. In Libronix these were called add-ins, and could sometimes be purchased separately (depending on the addin - some were only available by purchasing a package deal of some kind). Beginning in L4, there were no separate add-ins available to purchase. To use some functions you needed to purchase a base package. Some Libronix add-ins were dropped, and others didn't carry over directly without a minimal crossgrade, at least. (I think there were some with large libraries, but no base package who negotiated another arrangement with Logos, but I don't remember specifics. I could even be wrong on this - it happens)

L5 isn't introducing anything new in its approach to getting added functionality, except that this time, the added functionality is all new to Logos5.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 62
Ken Hicks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:22 PM

David L Bailey:

Just as Dan mentioned in his post (not quoted here), a fully-featured Logos 5 comes with new databases, and these databases are treated like new resources in a sense.  That means if you want to fully use L5, you will need to pay for these database resources. I believe some folks are confusing the promise of "free program updates of a specific product tier - i.e. Logos 4.x" with the introduction of a new product - i.e. Logos 5.x.  What I have read so far from Bob sounds reasonable to me.  I think Logos should address these confusions on their product page.

David

 

No confusion on my part... and I don't expect anything free. I know the value of hard work.

I view the Sense data set as a plug-in to give enhanced functionality of the core program. This would differ in my opinion from purchasing a resource (Bible, interlinear, etc). Some have argued its like buying any other resource like a Lexham product. But Sense is promoted as something integral to full functionality of the program in the videos. So if I want the full L5 'experience" (functionality) I need L5 Gold (and the Sense dataset). No one would ever claim that I needed a Lexham product to have full functionality of the engine. That is a substantial differentiation from a mere resource that one can purchase.

The fact that I cannot purchase a crossgrade with just the essential data sets to make it functional apart from L5 Gold is a legitimate complaint.

Posts 10052
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:26 PM

J. Morris:
...  The "status" I paid for with Gold was the fully functional program I do not care what it was called.  I now have to buy the Gold package again.... to retain the use of the fully functional program. 

I still think you misunderstand. You paid for L4 base package Gold. Okay. This works now in L4 as it did the first day.... - oh no, in the meantime there came PBs and WordLists and Community Notes and Sermon tags and whatever - all free upgrades to the engine. And this L4 engine runs today and will run tomorrow (much better as at the time when most people acquired L4, with not only bug fixes but tons of new funcionality). And right now it is interfaced via sync 2 with your iDevice or Kindle fire or Android phone (and the free apps there) and biblia.com and Faithlife and whatever. I honestly believe that Logos gave us users much more than they promised when we spent our first dollar for L4. And they keep this, and are still maintaining the program as well as the resources for free.  

You don't have to go for L5, you may stick with L4. Okay, but most of us want the newest version of the gadget, don't we? So, to "retain" the program, what do you need? A free engine. Bob has promised that for all of us - it's planned but not here right now. There's a number of paid ugrades available first (I like his example of a blockbuster that first comes to paying customers in the cinema before it's given away on video or even free TV) - so if you want it now, instead of say in December, you can choose any of these according to the additional books and functionality you want. You aren't asked for paying to retain existing functionality, but for additional stuff that never was part of L4.

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 62
Ken Hicks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:27 PM

Perhaps the previous, separately purchased add-ins are clouding my perception of the issue. I guess I just disagree with the whole concept of the "package" approach. I can deal with it.

Posts 6483
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:28 PM

Perhaps this can help. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58176.aspx Logos addresses users questions.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:31 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

J. Morris:
I would just like honesty... Many get it... We pay for the program...   Logos please stop claiming otherwise...

 

This is not new to Logos. In Libronix (L3), there was further functionality that needed to be purchased to be used. In Libronix these were called add-ins,

You are correct I forgot about the add-ins (I did purchase those also).

While I continue to have issues with the claim "we don't buy the program" I will secede due to the differences of interpretation.

However...  the added claim that we ONLY buy resources ties into the issue.  Again, this is clearly not the case.  I've stated my point and I appreciate the opportunity to do so.  I'll just leave it at that.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 2:41 PM

Mark Stevens:

Thanks Dan and thanks everyone. I just feel incredibly let down by Logos. Gold was a milestone for me. I know I get to keep stuff but I cannot understand why I should have to downgrade to upgrade. It is an insult to the thousands I have spent building my library. Why can't I pay for the upgrade like I did with L4?

I love this software and I have bragged about for years. A little shocked that there is no info about any of this on my product upgrade page. All I see is the $400 plus it will cost me to keep Gold. 

 

I expected better from Logos.

What's in a name?  that which we call a gold
By any other name would be the same.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8021
LogosEmployee

Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx

 

Posts 93
Robert C. Beckman Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:00 PM

My $.02 worth, (thought about this at job #2 Today) Logos seems to be changing from a two tier programming model (program+resources) to a three-tier model.

(Program+Resources+meta-data driven "tools") Again, some explanation would have been nice. Not only are we not comparing two different things, their explanations are not always about our questions because we haven't gotten our minds fully around the model.  It seems to be getting less murky, a part of "upgrade" pricing is invested in these secondary tools. This is why in Bob's eloquent and forthright post the free engine and the "minimal cross-grade" are different things. At some point it would be a good idea for someone to post a simple explanation of their software vision/model. Without any hype and without marketing. Clearly part of the problem is the intensity of the sell. Many of us in the "community" don't need sold. We are already on board. A lot of us are at the point where we add resources only as needed. Explaining the model helps us to understand what the dollars invested are doing besides paying publishers and keeping the lights on. Lastly and finally, and to summarize: we do need to have the minimal cross-grade (if at all possible) before the roll-out deals expire. That way, if we find the new tools useful, but limited because we don't have all the needed resources....then we can make an informed decision

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 7:46 PM

Dean053:

Gary Butner:

I think what most of the complainers are missing is that Silver 4 is NOT Silver 5, Gold 4 is NOT Gold 5, Platinum 4 is NOT Platinum 5, and Portfolio 4 is NOT Portfolio 5. Logos is offering both upgrades and downgrades between all packages.

Your post illustrates the kind of polemical tone that is troubling me: referring to fellow Christians as "complainers"; no, they are unhappy customers. Probably in part because they aren't understanding everything as well as they could (or perhaps because things are not communicated as well as they should). I find it a worrying trend if a company (Christian or not) takes this kind of attitude--if there are wide-spread misconceptions, then it's down to the company to communicate better--if they want to improve customer relations, which I'm sure (and hope) every company wants.

I am not a Logos employee or member of the Pritchett family. I'm 70 years old, retired, and on a fixed income. I have been a Logos user almost from the beginning.  Until tonight I had Platinum 4, but I have faith in Logos and the Pritchett family, and so I upgraded to Portfolio 5.

Posts 16
Mike Singer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 7:53 PM

David Ogg:

Logos is abusing their recent success at the cost of their loyal customers. Proverbs has a few thoughts they should consider.

A response from Logos would be appreciated given this appears to be true.

In addition, it is a well established fact that L4 for Mac was sub-par compared to the PC version...

Shalom

Posts 27687
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 7:58 PM

Mike Singer:
A response from Logos would be appreciated given this appears to be true.

Please read Bob's Post: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Page 14 of 16 (313 items) « First ... < Previous 12 13 14 15 16 Next > | RSS