Crossgrade info petition

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This post has 19 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 11
Nathanial Simmons | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:26 PM

I'm sure (simply from reading around on the forums) that there are plenty of us who very much want to acquire the new UI and database features who don't wish to spend a large sum on an upgrade package. Unfortunately, as you probably already know, Logos isn't giving us any information about crossgrade options or timing; I even called them and they didn't know or couldn't say. So, let's try and put some polite pressure towards getting an answer via comments and stuff on this thread. 

I love being an early adopter, and I'm a good and deeply invested customer; let's ask for some recognition for our investment.

 

Nathan Simmons

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:31 PM

that's a great first post, Nathan, and I'm guessing a lot will agree with you.  Welcome to the forums.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 620
Jonathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:34 PM

Nathanial Simmons:

I'm sure (simply from reading around on the forums) that there are plenty of us who very much want to acquire the new UI and database features who don't wish to spend a large sum on an upgrade package. Unfortunately, as you probably already know, Logos isn't giving us any information about crossgrade options or timing; I even called them and they didn't know or couldn't say. So, let's try and put some polite pressure towards getting an answer via comments and stuff on this thread. 

I love being an early adopter, and I'm a good and deeply invested customer; let's ask for some recognition for our investment.

 

Nathan Simmons

 

I was planning on upgrading my base package and did, but I agree that this info should be served up front.

Syntax Searching Group | Michigan Logos Users | L5 FAQ | OSX 10.10 | 2.4 GHz i5 | 8 GB Ram

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 8:55 PM

Yes

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 10:52 PM

Nathanial Simmons:
I'm sure (simply from reading around on the forums) that there are plenty of us who very much want to acquire the new UI and database features who don't wish to spend a large sum on an upgrade package. Unfortunately, as you probably already know, Logos isn't giving us any information about crossgrade options or timing; I even called them and they didn't know or couldn't say. So, let's try and put some polite pressure towards getting an answer via comments and stuff on this thread. 

Welcome Big Smile

Bob Pritchett replied in another thread => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58003/413101.aspx#413101

Bob Pritchett:

The Logos 5 engine is only available as part of upgrades at this point. While we plan to offer it sometime in the future, it is not yet released.

 

Our promise is that you won't need to buy an upgrade to keep access to your books as operating systems change, and that's still the case. (Logos 4.x still runs, is still available, and was even upgrade recently, and has more updates planned.)

 

I know that many people -- probably including me! -- have "shorthanded" this promise to "the software is free, you only pay for the books!". And the software is free; you can download it and read all your e-books. And eventually Logos 5 engine will be free, too -- just not yet.

 

Much of what is cool in Logos 5 is closely integrated with brand new (and very expensive to create/acquire!) data sets and content. We believe that the value of Logos 5 is in the combination of these tools and content, and that users will have the best experience with both the software and content together. (We still need to do some tweaking, in fact, to have Logos 5 elegantly handle the case of certain data sets not being available.)

 

By focusing on paid upgrades to collections/new-content at launch, we're able to:

 

- Ensure Logos 5 users have a great experience. (Downloading Logos 5 code-only and realizing that much of the new functionality is dependent on missing data could lead to unhappy users / reviews / less-enthusiasm for upgrading.)

 

- Recover our investment. Yes, the new code and new content and new bundles, all together, are great reasons to upgrade your content bundle. And people are (and should be!) excited about them -- they're great! And since we only get paid for new content -- even though it's expensive to write code, too -- we intentionally try to create that moment of enthusiasm to generate some sales and pay the bills, so we can be here to serve you in the future.

 

It's like this is a new movie, and we'd really like you to pay to see it in the theater with a drink and some popcorn -- and the whole family! Yes, you can wait till it's broadcast on TV for free, but that free broadcast doesn't pay the bills. So we'd prefer you don't sneak a camera into the theater and record it for your friends to watch for free. They can watch it for free -- just not this week. :-)

 

(And if they wait, they'll get the movie, but not the 40' screen, massive sound system, and deliciously unhealthy popcorn... that's why you want to get an upgrade -- it's got all the cool new content that makes it better!)

 

Thanks!

 

-- Bob

Observation: to effectively use new features in Logos 5 needs new content.  The Logos 5 Customized Upgrade => http://www.logos.com/upgrade page has option to "down-grade", which adds Logos 5 resources to your existing Logos Library at a lower price.

Noticed Logos 5 Gold includes all the new Logos 5 content, while Silver 5 lacks one: Bible Sense Lexicon.  For features, Platinum 5 has them all while Gold 5 lacks one for Bible Word Study: Septuagint Translation.  Silver 5 lacks Bible Word Study for Senses feature (since not have new Bible Sense Lexicon).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 26
ClaytonH | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 3:30 AM

I think this is a great idea.  Having spent over $3,700 in the past 12 months on resources, I'm astounded to have been told this evening that I need to spend another $637 to get the features of Logos5.  This is the Biblical Languages package which I already have, meaning, if I had of followed the salesman's advice, I would have paid twice for many resources - with some new resources and the new platform tools included.

I can understand the need to release Logos 5 the way they have to try and turn a profit, but to not tell customers when the crossgrade will be available is a bit much for me.  

 

Posts 165
Wayne | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 3:44 AM

ClaytonH:
I'm astounded to have been told this evening that I need to spend another $637 to get the features of Logos5.

You do not need to spend $637 to get the new features of Logos 5. If I want to go with Platinum then I will spend around that.  One can get wait a few days and just get the new engine for free. If you don't want all of the new data sets it appears that they all have individual prices. Or you could buy the "Silver" upgrade which has all but one of the new data sets.  It is usually best to wait a day or two for things to sort out and see what are the best options for your needs and budget.

I believe that I will opt for the Silver upgrade for just over $200. I need to check but appears that it does add a few books as well.

Posts 450
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:04 AM

Don't forget that Logos has some 1 million customers. A large number of people upgrading at one time could cause issues. They are actually doing everyone a favor by having the largest libraries upgrade first. This will help reduce issues with bandwidth for everyone else. I know it's not PC or convenient but it will be worth the wait!

Posts 113
Samuel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:19 AM

I think Logos just needs to admit this was a huge blunder on their part. The marketing is not clear at all. For example, my "recommended upgrade" for Logos 5 would cost more than I paid for my entire current package. No one anywhere pays more for an upgrade than they did to buy software. Of course Logos needs to pay the bills. However, they also need to be up front and tell us what the options are. Honestly, this had me looking over at the Accordance website this morning.

First, Logos needs to tell us clearly what the cost is to upgrade from Logos 4 to Logos 5 to get the new engine. I agree this shouldn't be free, it should be a reasonable cost. I don't expect upgrades to Mac OSX to be free, nor do I expect significant upgrades to Logos to be free. They can then articulate what new features in Logos 5 will be missing if just the engine is purchased without the new "data sets."

Second, they can clearly detail what the advantages are for existing customers of upgrading to one of the new packages and what the true differences are. I need to know what I'm getting for my money since I'm being asked to pay more to upgrade than I paid to get what I have and I don't really want any new resources right now.

If they would present these two options we could make an informed decision and that's why I'm confused why they wouldn't first go after their established customers and given them all the options. I'm sure Bob and company mean well, but right now it gives me a pretty negative emotion towards Logos. Maybe they will come out with more clear answers, but right now the confusion and the launch process have left a bitter taste and making me wonder if I should really be with Logos long term.

Posts 11
Nathanial Simmons | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:28 AM

Samuel,

you're exactly right. What are our options? I don't object to paying for the new data sets, but I don't know if that's going to an option or not. I appreciate the need to make money on the launch, but they have already made a lot of money on the rest of us, and it would be nice to be in the loop. I'm sure some of us want to get one of the new base packages, and that's fine. But I sure would hate to get a base package now and then discover that there was an option to get the new engine and databases without forking over (in my case from scholar's to gold, close to $800). 

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:31 AM

Samuel

No body has bought the software - the software you have was supplied with the resources you bought. Even with L4 the software you got depended on the amount of resources you bought in a base package.

Samuel Clough:
First, Logos needs to tell us clearly what the cost is to upgrade from Logos 4 to Logos 5 to get the new engine.

At present the cost of upgrading the engine can be calculated on the Web Page by using the 'New to you' button. You can compare the costs of adding any of the packages. You might want to be wary of adding anything below Silver which gives you access to all bar two of the new databases.

Samuel Clough:
I need to know what I'm getting for my money since I'm being asked to pay more to upgrade than I paid to get what I have and I don't really want any new resources right now.

Does the video on the home page not suffice. There are many here who can answer any specific follow up questions.

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:33 AM

Samuel Clough:
For example, my "recommended upgrade" for Logos 5 would cost more than I paid for my entire current package. No one anywhere pays more for an upgrade than they did to buy software. Of course Logos needs to pay the bills. However, they also need to be up front and tell us what the options are.
All of the packages are on that page, clicking any of them on the upgrade page will give you the comparison. They had to start somewhere, so they default with the high end of middle. (actually I can't double check which one they start will till the servers are back up. They are adding another database server to the mix to make the website run better.)

 

Samuel Clough:
First, Logos needs to tell us clearly what the cost is to upgrade from Logos 4 to Logos 5 to get the new engine.
 Bob Pritchett explained the future engine download here. It is not a precise price of course, but you can at least see their reasoning.

Samuel Clough:
They can then articulate what new features in Logos 5 will be missing if just the engine is purchased without the new "data sets."

History indicates that they will do exactly that.

Samuel Clough:
Second, they can clearly detail what the advantages are for existing customers of upgrading to one of the new packages and what the true differences are.
That is the point of the "New to you" button on the upgrade page. ( www.logos.com/upgrade)

Samuel Clough:
I don't really want any new resources right now.
Than you only have to wait a little while (I'm guessing December, but it's only a guess) to get the engine download. 

Samuel Clough:
I'm sure Bob and company mean well, but right now it gives me a pretty negative emotion towards Logos.
I am sorry about that. My (unpaid, volunteer) Job here is to try and help answer questions. I hope that in some way I can assure you that Logos' history indicates that they'll make it all right. They may not always "do it right" for everyone the first time, but they really do try to make things right in the long run.

 

Software launches for small businesses, (Logos is still a "small" business) are different than for mega companies like Microsoft. MS can lead for months with advertising and so forth that tends to answer the questions. Here we have at best a smallish community. All of whom happens to be passionate about the Bible and about Logos. 

Thanks for writing a thoughtful post. Hopefully I haven't skipped anything which I'm qualified to speak to.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 11
Nathanial Simmons | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:40 AM

I am sorry about that. My (unpaid, volunteer) Job here is to try and help answer questions. I hope that in some way I can assure you that Logos' history indicates that they'll make it all right. They may not always "do it right" for everyone the first time, but they really do try to make things right in the long run.

 

Software launches for small businesses, (Logos is still a "small" business) are different than for mega companies like Microsoft. MS can lead for months with advertising and so forth that tends to answer the questions. Here we have at best a smallish community. All of whom happens to be passionate about the Bible and about Logos. 

Thanks for writing a thoughtful post. Hopefully I haven't skipped anything which I'm qualified to speak to.

Hey TCBlack,

thanks for responding.

I think the core question that I have (and I think other people as well), is this.  We understand that in the future there will probably be an option to update the engine to the L5 engine. But will that upgrade also include the new database features (timeline, sense concordance, etc)? If it doesn't, then we might as well spend the money on the gold upgrade now. But if it does, boy, it sure would make sense to wait.  That, to me, is what's so very frustrating. 

 

Thanks again,

Nathan

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 6:51 AM

Nathanial Simmons:

Hey TCBlack,

thanks for responding.

You're welcome. :-) But I'm going to have to quit in a moment, I have a sermon to preach on Sunday. Smile

Nathanial Simmons:
I think the core question that I have (and I think other people as well), is this.  We understand that in the future there will probably be an option to update the engine to the L5 engine. But will that upgrade also include the new database features (timeline, sense concordance, etc)? If it doesn't, then we might as well spend the money on the gold upgrade now. But if it does, boy, it sure would make sense to wait.  That, to me, is what's so very frustrating. 

Ah, this is easy for me to answer. 

There will in the nearish future be two options.

1. the engine only upgrade will be free. But it comes with no databases etc.

2. the "crossgrade" will incur a small fee for some or all (I do not know) of the databases and whatever else. There will be a fee incurred for this, one would presume commensurate to the databases, etc.

 

For many, waiting may indeed be the best option.

Just remember: You will always own what you already own. No Logos upgrade, downgrade or sidegrade will remove licenses.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 10319
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 7:08 AM

Bob's answer is funny as usual. I don't think he ever reads what he writes. Certainly the web folks don't. Everytime Logos 'does' something, there's mass confusion.  I give good odds even the Logos staff are confused. One said the crossgrade would never be available.

But his logic is that his engine can't 'pay for itself' without an immediate massive contribution from a user.

Now, I don't question any business' desire to get money. It's just Bob's logic.

Somehow he forgot about the thousands of dollars people were spending (like 'me') this year, last year and the year before that. What was he doing with it ... having a big party??  Buying up foreclosed houses in northern Washington?

Now of course I know the answer ... he was using it to build Logos5, fund Faithlife, the presentation software and so on. He was using it to run his business.

I smile because Logos communication has always been so inept. As far as I can tell, Logos5 is a major, major step in Bible software development ... certainly far better than the Logos4 lipstick exercise. But I very much doubt most users can tell that. 'Watch the video!'

My best recommendation: hire a 'normal' person to communicate to the customers. You'll make a lot more money.


Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 7:14 AM

I want to make sure I understanding what I am adding my support to here, after reading Bob's post.

Bob said that Logos offers an upgrade to version 5, packaged with resources that are reflected in an upgrade price, as a way to help recover investment in the software, tagging, etc. that was developed for version 5.

Also according to Bib, after awhile the upgrade will be given away for free, not tied to purchase of additional resources. The delay is with the hope that the new features and new resources will encourage people to buy. Otherwise Logos can't afford to build new software since they have never charged for it.

The purpose of this petition is to say to Logos NO, I disagree, you should let me have free software NOW. You do not have the right to only offer upgrades with new resources if you care about your customers. I have spent enough on Logos product in the past, I deserve the product free AND now.

Do I have it correct?

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 7:18 AM

DMB:

Bob's answer is funny as usual. I don't think he ever reads what he writes. Certainly the web folks don't. Everytime Logos 'does' something, there's mass confusion.  I give good odds even the Logos staff are confused. One said the crossgrade would never be available.

But his logic is that his engine can't 'pay for itself' without an immediate massive contribution from a user.

Now, I don't question any business' desire to get money. It's just Bob's logic.

Somehow he forgot about the thousands of dollars people were spending (like 'me') this year, last year and the year before that. What was he doing with it ... having a big party??  Buying up foreclosed houses in northern Washington?

Now of course I know the answer ... he was using it to build Logos5, fund Faithlife, the presentation software and so on. He was using it to run his business.

I smile because Logos communication has always been so inept. As far as I can tell, Logos5 is a major, major step in Bible software development ... certainly far better than the Logos4 lipstick exercise. But I very much doubt most users can tell that. 'Watch the video!'

My best recommendation: hire a 'normal' person to communicate to the customers. You'll make a lot more money.

 

So now I understand the issue DMB, it's not that you don't understand ("Now of course I know the answer "), you just don't approve. Or do you approve, you just don't like the way he said it ("hire a 'normal' person to communicate to the customers")? What ARE you trying to say?

Posts 10319
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 8:04 AM

Now Dominick you know exactly what I'm trying to say. And you enjoy this as much as I do. We're both quite predictable.

Businesses always do well to (1) be up front and 'heads-up' (2) be straight-forward (I call that 'honest' but not Bob) and (3) tell customers the good news.

Logos fails on all 3.

The first 2 are grit-your-teeth type issues; many businesses are internallly focused, so it's not that unusual.

The last one is much more troubling, since you really have to WORK to find the all the great aspects of much of Logos' staff's work. You can go literally years and not know Logos has a feature you need, due to Logos literally not wanting to communicate.

Dare I mention FaithLife? Have we suddenly lost our collective memory? I've said on other threads that (though I don't like it), it's the best thing that could happen for many churches, but you'd be hard pressed to see that in Logos' communication.

OK ... back to the fun of trying to figure what Logos is doing this time, and why I 'may' want to upgrade but not without knowing about the 'crossgrade'. Duh.

 


Posts 11
Nathanial Simmons | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:50 AM

Dominick,

I'm afraid you did misunderstand our purpose. I certainly don't expect Logos to provide me anything for free; excellent products like this require significant resources to develop and I'm happy to recognize and support that.  

What I am saying is, since I have invested a good deal into Logos already, I would appreciate clear communication from Logos on my options for upgrading my current package. Will it be possible to crossgrade into the L5 UI and database improvements? What would I get, how much would it cost? Would it be to my advantage to wait for that, or would it simply be better to "upgrade" to Gold now? 

I'm happy to pay, and I want them to make money, but I think it would be polite if they recognized our investment by clearly showing us our options up front instead of catering to new customers and making the rest of us wait for something that may never exist.

 

Nathan

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 1:42 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
For features, Platinum 5 has them all while Gold 5 lacks one for Bible Word Study: Septuagint Translation.

For current L4 owners this is included in OLL and up. Only new buyers, and those upgrading from something lower than OLL, should need Gold for this feature.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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