Disappointed

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Posts 13
Michel D. Mahler | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:14 AM

I've been a user with Logos since about 2000-2001. I first bought the Scholars package when you still had to insert the disk into the computer to use the program. I recall I spent upwards of almost $500 for the program (I didn't really have at the time) for the program and it was only mildly helpful. A lot of "fluff" that I would never use was included with the software.

Later I had to upgrade to a Libronix system (free). That was not a very helpful system either.

Now a month and a half ago I speak to the rep. At the tune of $124/mo. for 12 mos. I upgrade to Logos 4 Platinum. I am excited. He tells me:

I am getting almost 1200 books.

I am getting the latest version and he assures me Logos is very slow releasing new versions and doesn't anticipate one for a long time.

He further assures me not to worry. I was disappointed that I had previously spent almost $500 for books and will purchase them again. He says this time all he can do is give me a 15% discount but not to worry...if I purchase the software this time I'll never need to do so again. Future upgrades will be FREE. (I didn't hear the fine print behind what he said - like overlooking the asterisk in fine print.)

Now I open Logos today. SUPRISE! Logos 5! I get mine free...and my computer has upgrades downloading. It reopens to Logos 4...(background sound: whaa...whaa...whaa...)

I don't understand. So I click the link. It tells me my upgrade is over $600.

There is some misunderstanding. I call Logos and wait 30 min. on hold to speak to a woman with a strong accent that is a little difficult to understand.

Bottom line my "free" software won't be free after all. Why?

It's the shell game. Platinum isn't simply Platinum anymore. They changed the books that come with Platinum, so now I no longer have the second tier of Logos, I now have third tier software.

Since (new) Platinum comes with different books, it wouldn't be fair to give them to me free (agreed). So I can't simply upgrade my software "for free" unless my payments go up $40/mo. Ummmmm...that ain't free.

Some in this forum are saying, "Be patient. There will be a "crossover" package. My question still is this:

1.) Will it be free?

2.) Why is Logos taking care of their POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS before their loyal customer base? I was in sales for a while. I remember in one of our meetings they told us that it is 20 times harder to get a new customer than to retain one. I think Logos needs to think about that.

3.) Why didn't the rep on the phone advise me of an option to wait for something called a crossover?

4.) How long will it take to roll out the crossover package?

What hurts is I might expect this from Microsoft...but not from a company that is Christian-oriented.

So my upgrade is free (unless we change the books in the package, then it isn't [betcha didn't see that comin' tee hee]).

I guess I could even see not giving a free upgrade if 1) they hadn't told me it would be free and 2) it had been years since I purchased the software. But it wasn't. It was last month!

I even see some doubletalk on the Logos site. Someone sounding like a rep for the company corrected another forum member and says, "We never said all future upgrades would be free. We said you will never have to purchase your books again." Ummmm...sir, the rep on the phone definately said future upgrades would be free. That was a MAJOR SELLING POINT from my perspective. He assured me that the only future charges would be if I wanted to purchase more books.

Today, when I asked the representative to speak to a supervisor she told me he was busy and to try calling back in A MONTH! Wow! A month? Really? Now that's customer service!

I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just asking for what I was promised.

Disappointed and feeling mislead,

Mike

Posts 2391
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:56 AM

Mike,

I would suggest you contact Dan Prichett.  He is the CEO of Logos and is very open to hearing your concerns.  I don't have his email at this minute, but I'm sure someone else will post it.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:07 AM

OT: 

Ronald Quick:
Dan Prichett.  He is the CEO of Logos

Actually, AFAIK, Dan is the brother (and VP of Logos) of the CEO, which is Bob. But both are, I think, open for customer concerns.  

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 3
Joe Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:08 AM

I'm feeling the same way here. This is shaky ground, Logos. I'm a pastor and we're all Christians here - so this is no anonymous threat. But seriously, you're messing with a lot of loyalty. I went all in about 12 months ago for Platinum. I even pursued a big old beefy computer to drive all of it with my fat monitor on my desk. Now I'm set. But wait, I'm not set - with this Logos 5 release! Your release is so confusing and then we all learn that Platinum doesn't mean Platinum anymore, and that I would have to pay for a whole new platinum. Crossgrade isn't really doing it for me either. 

I bought these hundreds and hundreds of books. Do I want to buy anymore on Logos? Probably not, if this is how it's going to be. I'd rather have books on my shelves if this is what life is going to be like from here on out. I'm trying to be a fan, I have been a fan, I paid like I'm a fan - but now you've pulled the rug out from under me. The prices for the books is often times the same as buying the book (look at my purchase history - those are the ones I'm talking about). So why would I want to continue on with you?... or brag about you to my pastor friends?

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:19 AM

Michel D. Mahler:

I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just asking for what I was promised.

Disappointed and feeling mislead,

Michael, thank you for such a detailed and thoughtful post.  I easily placed myself in similar scenarios that occurred in my life.  I also recommend you call or email Logos.  I think "waiting a month" seems pretty sounds not very customer friendly and certainly is of no help to you.  At the same time, it is a crazy time for Logos, and as a fellow human I know we all have limitations.  But not only could you call, but try emailing Bob.  He may not get to it right away, but he does get to them.  it is his first name at logos dot com.  i forget dan's, but it may be similar. I don't remember if he openly takes email or not.  

You've identified several concerns that are very valid.  Feel free to post back what you have encountered.  I look forward to hearing more.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 99
jtondee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:24 AM

I understand why so many are upset with all the confusion. I think probably the best thing they could have done is rebranded all the base packages in Logos 5. 

Let me try to offer some perspective, This past March/April I bought a IPAD 3, at a heavy investment cost to me (particularly to use Logos). So i went to reading the press conference they had a few weeks ago to learn about the Ipad mini they were bringing out, this fall and discovered that they were Refreshing the Ipad line with a fourth Generation with a better processor, connection, etc. Needless to say I was not happy as I had just less than six months ago bought the most current Ipad they had. Even in my frustration with apple, I never once thought Apple owes me a loyal customer who is heavily invested with many of their products. I bought an Ipad 3 and guess what I still have an ipad 3, just as you still have all the books from whatever package you have, that does not change. (In fact im glad i got the L4 package a 1.5 years ago because it had the Pillar commentaries and NIGTC, BDAG so on, which are no longer in the L5 base packages)

I Know we are all heavily invested with Logos, and some feel they have been misled or burned. I think we all need to take a deep breath, step back, and view things in perspective. I am not trying to antagonize anyone, but it seems like anytime something new comes people lose their minds in frustration for a brief moment.

 

Posts 32
Chuck Alford | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:42 AM

I am very disappointed as well. It seems like Logos isn't being faithful to those who have been faithful to them. I upgraded to the platinum library a few months back, and I have been adding books to my library regularly for a while. I even received an email from 2 different CSR's within the last 6 weeks asking if I was interested in some books that are on my wish list because they were discounted at the time. I passed. Now.... These books are part of the new Platinum and Diamond packages. WOW... Really??? Now I find out that my Platinum library isn't Platinum. If I want to keep my Platinum status then I can stay with L4 or pay even more for the new L5. I don't know Logos.... You really have me thinking twice about on our continued relationship.

Posts 13
Michel D. Mahler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:04 PM

Ok...here is what I've discovered.

The rep who sold me the software is on vacation, so I spoke to Bart (who is very friendly and helpful).

The bottom line is this:

1. There will likely be a crossover program but nobody knows when. Rolling out Logos 5 is top priority right now so it could be months or even more than a year...nobody knows.

2. Technically my rep did not lie to me (rather he told me what he thought was the truth, based upon what his superiors told him). I get the feeling that sales reps are left almost completely in the dark about when upgrades are coming out. They are all scrambling to learn just what the new features are and what books are different as they try to sell the program (bad idea). Bart had no easy way to tell me exactly how many books I got on my last purchase that are no longer available and how many books I will have total now (I should think that might be a useful sales tool).

3. In my case I had bought Platinum. But Platinum, you see,  is no longer "Platinum." The new Platinum includes several books not included in the "old Platinum" but is also missing several books from the old Platinum. New Platinum is closer to the old Portfolio, but not really (???). In my case this is somewhat good because my upgrade allows me to keep all of the books in the old Platinum but also receive everything everything added to the new Platinum. (Have I lost anyone yet?)

What really attracts me to L5 is the capabilities this new software offers. It is much more powerful than 4 with some really cool features that I know will be helpful to me.

So...I reluctantly took the plunge...my payments increase $40/mo. Am I thrilled? Hardly. (This thing better write awesome sermons for me!) But I feel like I really need this to be efficient with the time I spend with my studies.

For future reference, Logos has lost my trust when they "guarantee" anything like "free upgrades." I won't even trust the software name will stay the same.

Me: "I thought future upgrades were free."

Logos: "I'm not sure what you were told. That's unfortunate." (a.k.a. it wasn't true or there was a HUGE misunderstanding)

Logos: "Um, well sir, Platinum WOULD HAVE BEEN a free upgrade, but seeing as we've changed the package so drastically, we no longer really consider Platinum to actually be Platinum, so you're gonna have to pay for it."

Me: "But it's still called Platinum."

Logos: "Well Platinum isn't Platinum anymore. Now it's Platinum...not the Platinum you have but the Platinum we currently sell."

Me: "Huh? Never mind. I want the new features. Tack $40/mo. onto my bill that I really shouldn't do." (Ugh!)

Why couldn't Logos have rolled out the crossover at the same time? It's not 100% clear when they will and though that seems to be the plan, there is no guarantee they ever will.Based upon past experience I wouldn't count on it. If and when they do...mark my words, it'll cost ya!

 

Why couldn't they just keep Platinum named Platinum and call this new Platinum by another name? How about even "Platinum Plus" or "Platinum 1.2" if you're so in love with retaining "Platinum"?

How confusing and frustrating. Logos 5 could have been such a wonderful roll out. Instead it's become walk through a maze of mirrors (confusion).

Like Logos, but they've lost some serious trust points with me.

Mike

Posts 79
LogosEmployee
Jeff Jackson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:10 PM

Michel D. Mahler:

1.) Will it be free?

2.) Why is Logos taking care of their POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS before their loyal customer base? I was in sales for a while. I remember in one of our meetings they told us that it is 20 times harder to get a new customer than to retain one. I think Logos needs to think about that.

3.) Why didn't the rep on the phone advise me of an option to wait for something called a crossover?

4.) How long will it take to roll out the crossover package?

1. You will be able to update to the Logos 5 software for free.  Doing so will not give you any new features nor new resources, so there's no hurry for you to do so.  4.6 is still supported.  A 4.6 update went out as recently as Monday, I believe it was, and there are additional updates in the pipeline.

2. You'll have to talk to Bob about that.  He does post frequently to the forums: http://community.logos.com/members/2130/default.aspx.

3. If you bought something from the rep and have now decided you'd rather wait for the crossover instead, Logos will undo the purchase.

4. I don't know, but I suspect it will be when the initial load on the servers dies down a bit.

Posts 99
jtondee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:16 PM

Michel, I wasnt thrilled with having to buy another upgrade also, I was stuck between Silver, Gold and platinum. I ended going with the platinum, and the reason i upgraded, was because many of the books included in my new package were on my wishlist, it was cheaper for me to jump all in, then wait and purchase them individually.

I agree with you also efficiency for me was also key, and man im loving, L5, i love the speed and feel of it. I have already used many of the new features and new books. So while im hurting over the price, It has instantly helped me. I really like the sermon starter guide also, its a great way to plunge into a text with, cross references and thematic outlines on topics, and themes within verses.

May the Lord bless you.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:18 PM

Ronald Quick:

Mike,

I would suggest you contact Dan Prichett.  He is the CEO of Logos and is very open to hearing your concerns.  I don't have his email at this minute, but I'm sure someone else will post it.

A slight correction: Bob Pritchett is the CEO (and creator) of Logos Bible software. Dan Pritchett is the VP of Sales (and Bob's brother.) Both are very accessible and care about keeping customers happy. Here are their email addresses:

Bob@Logos.com

Dan@Logos.com

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:19 PM

Updates to the software so you can continue read and use your books are and will continue to be free. Logos never promised it would be available free day 1. When it's released you will be able to update your software engine, which is exactly what they have promised. You were not promised that every new feature or resource would be free. If you want the extra resources or the new features they cost. If you want to keep the resources you have and don't want any of the new features then download the engine when released for free and keep reading and searching your resources.

The same thing happened with L4, if I wanted the free engine I was able to download them (I don't think it was available the same day). I could have gotten the new features by just crossgrading. I wanted the new features and more resources so I upgraded. 

Logos has always promised that we would never pay more money to continue to read and use our resources. They have never promised to freely provide every new feature.

Posts 2391
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:22 PM

Super Tramp:
A slight correction: Bob Pritchett is the CEO (and creator) of Logos Bible software. Dan Pritchett is the VP of Sales (and Bob's brother.) Both are very accessible and care about keeping customers happy.

Thanks for the correction.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:32 PM

Michel D. Mahler:
Why couldn't they just keep Platinum named Platinum and call this new Platinum by another name? How about even "Platinum Plus" or "Platinum 1.2" if you're so in love with retaining "Platinum"?

I'm sorry for the confusion created by the package names. We've been "re-using" collection names for changing collections for many years. (We've had a "Scholar's Library" for over a decade.) The collections are always changing -- the (KF) (JG) and other letter designations reflect changed collections as books are added, removed, etc. based on user needs and publisher licenses.

This particular cycle involved much bigger changes to the collections than in the past -- we even did away with some names (like Christian Home, Bible Study Library, Leader's, etc.) and decided to standardize this time on a more obviously hierarchical value proposition: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond, etc.

This name re-use has confused some people, for which I'm sorry. Having Platinum 4 doesn't mean you can only move to Platinum 5 -- you can upgrade to Bronze 5, or any other collection you'd like. In every case you just get (and only pay for!) what's different between what you have and what you're getting.

The levels are levels of book and content collections -- there isn't anything else to a level. We could call Platinum "The Fred Collection" -- it's just a named set of resources that's a different set than Bronze ("The Joe Collection"). We named them in hierarchy just to indicate which one has more resources. But really, all the 5 generation collections have more and different resources than the 4 generation.

-- Bob

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:32 PM

Mike, I think you have uncovered a common and frustrating human problem: communication!  Smile

To muddy it more in an attempt to clarify:

"upgrading to Platinum from Platinum" or any other such venture, never was free, and never was promised to be free.

What IS free is that you can upgrade to the newer engine and retain all your previously purchased library and resources.  So, in that sense, Logos told you the truth.

What is different is that L5 includes several powerful tools, which, if you want them now, you much buy a resource package (silver, gold, platypus, etc) which gets you new books, new databases and Logos gets a way to recoup their heavy cash outlay.  Or, if you can wait a bit, you can get a minimal crossgrade option, but it wont be due for a few weeks yet.  You can also get the engine to read and purchase books but without the new features.  I am a little more hazy at this point what exactly the basic engine is, but my guess is that it looks like Logos 5 graphically and has some of the performance features (faster notes etc), but no new databases.

 

Glad you called back.  phew, that's a lot of work.  and time.  glad you had slightly better results this time.  still understand there was some incongruent stuff.  Did my comments above help at all?

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 33
Jimmy Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:35 PM

I, too, am disappointed in LOGOS.  From all I have read I believe did not do their research before making such a drastic shift that affects all of their long-time loyal customers in such a negative way. Talk about a move that have damaged their brand, this is it! 

I have talked 12 pastors into buying LOGOS 4 this year.  We were all going to go together to a training session in March of 2013.  Now, I don't know if I want to mention it again.  That will be another $225.00 and we would not even be learning the current software.  Or maybe they will talk about LOGOS 5 and we will be sitting there with LOGOS 4.  I am really disappointed we can't get an upgrade at an upgrade rate.  What a bad day for LOGOS loyal customers as well as for the LOGOS brand!

Disappointed in Texas!

Jimmy

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:37 PM

Michel D. Mahler:

So my upgrade is free (unless we change the books in the package, then it isn't [betcha didn't see that comin' tee hee]).

The software upgrade itself will be free, it's just not released on its own yet. But for the low, low cost of "waiting a little while" it will be.

Much of what's cool in the software upgrade, though, works in collaboration with some massive new databases. The 10 new databases are presently sold as part of new collections, which also contain lots of new books. Eventually we'll offer other purchase configurations, too, allowing many different purchase prices. You can get close to that now by "upgrading" your Platinum 4 to a Gold 4; you keep all your existing Platinum 4 content, and get the new databases and some new books.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:38 PM

Bob Pritchett:
We could call Platinum "The Fred Collection"

I actually kind of like that!  Maybe I will just dub my L4 Portfolio "the Winston Churchill Collection."

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 31
Mitchell Borrows | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:41 PM

If you have the logos logo under your name do you work for them?

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 12:44 PM

He's the boss

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