Disappointed

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 1:12 PM

The new cool library filter in L5 will take care of that, though. Let it display only the theology works, only the commentaries, or only "everything but Perseus and Fiction", assuming you have respective collections. 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Whyndell Grizzard:

Hiding resources can be very tedious.

Logos 4.6 added a way to hide hundreds of resources at once: select them in the Library, then hold down Ctrl (or Opt on Mac), right-click them, and choose "Hide". All the selected resources will be hidden when you restart.

See http://wiki.logos.com/Hiding_Books for more.

Posts 4
James Farrah | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 3:06 PM

Hi Sean,

Thanks for your response, it is somewhat clarifying.  It appears that the data sets contain additional functionality as the price points increase (as opposed to being strictly texts/books.  Therefore, the functionality is not the same across all platforms.  For example, I would consider the Clause Search, NT Referent Visual Filter, and Reported Speech Visual Filter functional tools as opposed to books.  But I would also consider the Bible Sense Lexicon a book and not a functional tool.  

I have no doubt that Logos will fix their recent rollout and any concerns over "lost" books will be assuaged, and those who cannot afford this upgrade will have access to the engine.  Logos has always been very good about this and I have no reason to believe they will change now.  You appear to be a good company and have a great product.  However, the tiered functionality is extremely troubling to me!  It causes me concern about the costly investment I have made in Logos if this is the direction the company is headed.  I also have Accordance because I haven't wanted to have all of my electronic "eggs" in one basket and they do not have tiered functionality - I'm concerned!

Lastly, any reason why Logos couldn't offer an upgrade that is similar to Apple's OS without additional texts that would cost around the same price as Apple's ($29).

Any comments you could offer would be appreciated.

I appreciate you guys and the work you are doing.

 

James 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:16 PM

James Farrah:
However, the tiered functionality is extremely troubling to me!  It causes me concern about the costly investment I have made in Logos if this is the direction the company is headed.

Direction? It was the same in L3. It was the same in L4. Why are you suddenly so concerned about it now? 

It's simply a result of the engine itself being free. The engine can do all sorts of things, but you can't take advantage of it if you don't have the right resources. To do a Bible search you need a Bible. To do a Hebrew morph search you need a morph tagged Hebrew resource. To get a Septuagint Translation Ring you need a properly tagged Septuagint. And so on.

James Farrah:
Lastly, any reason why Logos couldn't offer an upgrade that is similar to Apple's OS without additional texts that would cost around the same price as Apple's ($29).

Isn't free better than $29? Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:49 PM
Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Whyndell Grizzard:

Hiding resources can be very tedious.

Logos 4.6 added a way to hide hundreds of resources at once: select them in the Library, then hold down Ctrl (or Opt on Mac), right-click them, and choose "Hide". All the selected resources will be hidden when you restart.

See http://wiki.logos.com/Hiding_Books for more.

When I read this thread earlier today I was thinking this feature had been added to L4 but couldn't remember how. Thanks for reminding me!
Posts 4
James Farrah | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 8:44 PM

Hi Sean,

The above post was actually addressed to you. I can imagine you are very busy right now, but when you get a moment your thoughtful response would be appreciated.

Thanks for your hard work.

Blessings,

 

James

Posts 754
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 10:02 PM

James Farrah:

Hi Sean,

Thanks for your response, it is somewhat clarifying.  It appears that the data sets contain additional functionality as the price points increase (as opposed to being strictly texts/books.  Therefore, the functionality is not the same across all platforms.  For example, I would consider the Clause Search, NT Referent Visual Filter, and Reported Speech Visual Filter functional tools as opposed to books.  But I would also consider the Bible Sense Lexicon a book and not a functional tool.  

I have no doubt that Logos will fix their recent rollout and any concerns over "lost" books will be assuaged, and those who cannot afford this upgrade will have access to the engine.  Logos has always been very good about this and I have no reason to believe they will change now.  You appear to be a good company and have a great product.  However, the tiered functionality is extremely troubling to me!  It causes me concern about the costly investment I have made in Logos if this is the direction the company is headed.  I also have Accordance because I haven't wanted to have all of my electronic "eggs" in one basket and they do not have tiered functionality - I'm concerned!

Lastly, any reason why Logos couldn't offer an upgrade that is similar to Apple's OS without additional texts that would cost around the same price as Apple's ($29).

Any comments you could offer would be appreciated.

I appreciate you guys and the work you are doing.

James 

James: i think part of the confusion here is that we've put a lot more effort and emphasis in Logos 5 into new datasets, which are neither books nor "the engine" per se. For example, searching your resources for the word "John" is a basic capability of the software engine. Buying a new bundle of books means you'll get more results back from that search. But doing a Clause Search for "person: John the Baptist" isn't just searching: it requires an extensive set of data for which names, pronouns, and descriptions are disambiguated as to who is actually referred to (note "John" itself is ambiguous as a name; the NT refers to 6 different individuals with that name), as well as a complex set of rules for how that information is combined at the clause level. So we can't just write a program to do it and ship that to our users: we have to also invest a great deal of human effort in annotating and processing the text.

I appreciate that for most users, this distinction may not be very meaningful. But it makes a big difference to Logos' business: creating these datasets are major financial investments. In that respect, it is like our book resources: while we offer dozens of Bible dictionaries, each one comes with a cost to us, and therefore a price tag for our users. Our base packages represent tiers of content: Gold includes a lot more resources than Bronze, and therefore carries a higher cost.

The Bible Sense Lexicon is really two features: it combines 1) a set of senses with 2) annotation of the biblical text with the particular sense that's appropriate to that context. But the lexicon part is significantly different from Logos publishing an electronic version of an existing print resource like Louw-Nida or BDAG. Instead, we're creating an entirely new resource (that wouldn't work well in print anyway: it's designed to be digital), and that's expensive. We've done that in the past as well (for example, morphological analysis, or reverse interlinears), and have simply covered that cost as part of the whole package. But some of these new datasets require significantly more effort (in the case of BSL, we've had a full-time team of three language scholars with advanced training working since January, and we're nowhere near done yet). So we're just trying to organize our pricing to reflect our costs.

I'm not part of the team that determines prices and packages: but the brief answer to "why not offer a $29 upgrade like Apple's?" is because we're in a very different business with very different costs, factors, scale, and pricing models. As others have more ably argued elsewhere on the forums, one goal for Apple in updating the OS is to sell new hardware: Logos isn't in that business. (Lots of people are still happily using Libronix 3 from several years ago: i'll bet that's not true of your current cell phone)

 

Posts 11
Joey Ferrell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 10:17 PM

Great points Sean, and I am thankful for your work even though I am still feeling my disappointment. 

 

I bought a new Apple iPhone 4S in August, knowing that the iPhone 5 was just around the corner. That was a choice that I was willing to make, however, I also had the promise from Apple to bring my software up to the same exact OS running the 5. 

A month ago, I purchased Logos 4 as a brand new user. I researched pretty heavily before purchasing, yet never knew that I had a chance to wait one more month on what appears to be much better software. 

 

See the difference?  I have sort of despised the Apple montage and business practices for years, but something is to be said about the way they come to market with not a lot of hidden agendas. 

 

I had a lot of quality time on the phone with Logos tech support today, which actually helped me do some things that I knew could be done but couldn't find any info on.  I am convinced that it is good software now, but still feel shorted with my purchase and feeling that I am being forced today more for something because I generated revenue for Logos earlier than later. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 10:30 PM

Joey Ferrell:
A month ago, I purchased Logos 4 as a brand new user. I researched pretty heavily before purchasing, yet never knew that I had a chance to wait one more month on what appears to be much better software.

I am sure you could contact Logos, return your L4 base package, and get a new L5 one. If you do so, make sure you are aware of the differences in the packages. It might be a better or worse package for you and your needs (content wise). Otherwise, you can look forward to the minimal cross grade when it becomes available.

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 10:47 PM

Joey Ferrell:
Great points Sean, and I am thankful for your work even though I am still feeling my disappointment. 

A month ago, I purchased Logos 4 as a brand new user.

I understand how you feel.  Add about 12 years to that feeling and you will know how I feel also.

Logos Bible Software is by far the best in the business in my opinion.  However some of their business practices toward their current customers leaves me bewildered sometimes (every time a new version comes out to be exact).  When they came out with their Libronix platform years ago I was not happy with some things and thought it was time for a change in program.  I've tried two others over the years but keep coming back to Logos.  It just can't be beat.  

I feel like I'm between the proverbial rock and a hard place sometimes.  I want the best software to help me minister.  So I spend the cash on Logos but as a continual returning customer I now realize I will have to live with being in the "back seat".  The new customers get the front.

You will hear that "we only pay for the resources" over and over again.  But no mater how many times you hear it, look at the facts.  If you currently want all the functions of the PROGRAM you will have to buy the Gold package.  Yes they will have the free engine eventually but it will NOT allow you to use the PROGRAM at its full function. They will come out with "cross-grades"  but you will have to pay for them.  Last time we got the cross-grade option right away, but we were told to go to the back of line this go around...   I'm not sure why they keep insisting on phrases like "you only pay for the resources" and "you don't pay for the program" but I don't think its going to change.

So, welcome to the community.  Expect great things from your software it really is awesome.  The forums are a great place to get detailed help.  The people at Logos are usually very nice.  But expect to be disappointed from time to time (like when they roll out a new version).

Welcome to the back seat...  I'll introduce you to the others.

Posts 2
Jeffery A. Clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2012 11:09 PM

Just another reason why I keep my Libronix 3.

I did the upgrade to Logos 4 Bible Study, despite only using a select few Lutheran resources, and still don't have half the functionality of 3 in 4. None of Luther's Works have been updated to work any faster in Logos 4, in fact, I think some of them are slower.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2012 11:29 PM

J. Morris:
Yes they will have the free engine eventually but it will NOT allow you to use the PROGRAM at its full function. They will come out with "cross-grades"  but you will have to pay for them. 

As a long time Logos owner (note I didn't say user), I'd like to give a slightly different perspective. As a Catholic I waited to buy in until they had a "Catholic" edition - read one am to handle the Catholic canon. It's release was delayed and delayed and delayed. When it finally came out it was clear that the designers had ignored the problem of matching locations across translations. On their behalf I should also admit that the capabilities of PC's and the cost of storage was very low by today's standards. Only when Logos 4 came out with the verse mapping across translations did I become excited by the product - but at the cost of the harmonies, timelines, lectionaries and PB's I had built for myself in Libronix 3. But the feature that excited me was part of the basic engine not a feature that required I purchase resources to support it.

Between L3 and L4 Logos made a major change in philosophy that I don't think is broadly understood. In L3, one purchased "add-in" that was additional computer code to be added to your application. This meant that there were 100's of possible computer code variations that customer support had to be able to "fix.". In L4, Logos went with a model that decreased development and customer support costs - we all run the same computer code. Instead of buying add-ins we purchase data-sets. In either model, we as users pay to get all the new features.

I do understand why users for whom the computer is a black, magical box it seems as if the rules of the game changed. But those more familiar with the inner working of computer, the decision to minimize the variety of software code makes sense - it's a win-win situation when you understand that the underlying principle is the same. Logos just changed how they implemented it.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 4:41 AM

Michel D. Mahler:

I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just asking for what I was promised.

Disappointed and feeling mislead,

Welcome to the new Logos, whose need for income is much more important than our need for a promised working product. Do I sound sarcastic, you bet, I feel your pain and have been very disappointed in this so-called "Christian" company since my upgrade to L4 when it was first released and never completely delivered (Mac version). Now we've got new promises and a new product. Move forward at your own risk or count your losses and move on, there are products that are powerful enough for most and work as advertised. I'm not sure I'm willing to waste any more time or money with this one.

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:16 AM

J. Morris:

...

You will hear that "we only pay for the resources" over and over again.  But no mater how many times you hear it, look at the facts.  If you currently want all the functions of the PROGRAM you will have to buy the Gold package.  Yes they will have the free engine eventually but it will NOT allow you to use the PROGRAM at its full function. They will come out with "cross-grades"  but you will have to pay for them.  Last time we got the cross-grade option right away, but we were told to go to the back of line this go around...   I'm not sure why they keep insisting on phrases like "you only pay for the resources" and "you don't pay for the program" but I don't think its going to change.

...

I'm sorry you feel disappointed. I think the disagreement here is that when you say "all the functions of the PROGRAM" you mean

  • every feature of the software
  • every resource offered in a package
  • and every available dataset

That's significantly more in Logos 5 than the resources in previous versions of the package.

The offer Logos has made is that when you pay for content in our system, we'll make sure you can continue to use that content in the future. Nothing in Logos 5 has taken anything away from your previous content, and we've been shipping free engine updates to Logos 4 for three years now. In that time, we've also added free mobile apps and other software features to make your content more widely available. While it's true that new customers are an important source of growth for our business, it's long-term, repeat customers who continue to buy new resources and upgrades and keep our business alive.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 12:47 PM

Dennis Miller:
have been very disappointed in this so-called "Christian" company

I have held my peace long enough. Now I must respond.

Knowing that you are an active Accordance user and have promoted that application is previous posts on the forums, I would take your evaluation with a grain whole bag of salt. Furthermore, you are way off base in judging the motivation of others.

As had been frequently noted in these forums, there is no such thing as a "Christian Company". A company is a thing; it cannot trust Christ Jesus as Savior. There can only be companies which are run by Christians.

Posts 117
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 1:14 PM

Jack Caviness:
A company is a thing; it cannot trust Christ Jesus as Savior. There can only be companies which are run by Christians.
Mitt Romney strongly disagrees with you. He says "Corporations are people, My friend".

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:32 AM

Dennis Miller:

Michel D. Mahler:

I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just asking for what I was promised.

Disappointed and feeling mislead,

Welcome to the new Logos, whose need for income is much more important than our need for a promised working product. Do I sound sarcastic, you bet, I feel your pain and have been very disappointed in this so-called "Christian" company since my upgrade to L4 when it was first released and never completely delivered (Mac version). Now we've got new promises and a new product. Move forward at your own risk or count your losses and move on, there are products that are powerful enough for most and work as advertised. I'm not sure I'm willing to waste any more time or money with this one.

Hi Dennis--what spurred you on to buy Logos in the first place.  Since--if it is true, as Jack stated--that you use Accordance, what was it about Logos that you decided to invest in it?

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:59 AM

Paul C:

Jack Caviness:
A company is a thing; it cannot trust Christ Jesus as Savior. There can only be companies which are run by Christians.
Mitt Romney strongly disagrees with you. He says "Corporations are people, My friend".

I do not have to agree with everything he says to vote for him—or the other guy Big Smile

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 4:20 AM

Dan DeVilder:

Hi Dennis--what spurred you on to buy Logos in the first place.  Since--if it is true, as Jack stated--that you use Accordance, what was it about Logos that you decided to invest in it?

 

Dan, glad you asked. I have been a Logos user for many years and absolutely loved the program and all it could do, it was the best in my opinion and I openly shared that with many of my friends. That all changed when I made the switch from Windows PC's to Mac's as my primary PC of choice. I don't regret that change and in the beginning I ran Window XP on my macs in a virtual window just to use Logos 3. I was one of the first to upgrade to Logos 4 when it was announced and was very excited that it would finally be a product for both platforms, identical in form and function. I worked through Alpha releases, Beta releases, and final releases up to last December when I could wait no more, my patience had run out, I had to find something that would work properly and efficiently on the Mac. So, I chose to move to another Bible study program written specifically for Mac's basically doubling my investment and learning a new system which I am still getting used to. I have not quit using Logos as there were always great deals in community pricing that I would bid on and purchase and these are great for what they add but I could no longer rely on my old favorite work horse Bible study program to do the job for me and that is probably what leads me to rant as I do, extreme disappointment in something I used to love so much. I will admit to you and to all that I have let my disappointment cloud my judgement and for that I apologize. I don't want to say goodbye to Logos, I've always thought of it as a great product and the company as a great company but I cannot ignore all we were promised with Logos 4 which never came to fruition and now I am being presented the opportunity to upgrade to the latest and greatest with some of the same promises and though I am tempted I just don't know if I'm ready to go through it all again and continue to be disappointed. I know all of you don't want to have to read my rants again if Logos 5 doesn't live up to it's promises. I'll just wait and see what happens.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 4:52 AM

Dennis Miller:

Dan DeVilder:

Hi Dennis--what spurred you on to buy Logos in the first place.  Since--if it is true, as Jack stated--that you use Accordance, what was it about Logos that you decided to invest in it?

 

Dan, glad you asked. I have been a Logos user for many years and absolutely loved the program and all it could do, it was the best in my opinion and I openly shared that with many of my friends. That all changed when I made the switch from Windows PC's to Mac's as my primary PC of choice. I don't regret that change and in the beginning I ran Window XP on my macs in a virtual window just to use Logos 3. I was one of the first to upgrade to Logos 4 when it was announced and was very excited that it would finally be a product for both platforms, identical in form and function. I worked through Alpha releases, Beta releases, and final releases up to last December when I could wait no more, my patience had run out, I had to find something that would work properly and efficiently on the Mac. So, I chose to move to another Bible study program written specifically for Mac's basically doubling my investment and learning a new system which I am still getting used to. I have not quit using Logos as there were always great deals in community pricing that I would bid on and purchase and these are great for what they add but I could no longer rely on my old favorite work horse Bible study program to do the job for me and that is probably what leads me to rant as I do, extreme disappointment in something I used to love so much. I will admit to you and to all that I have let my disappointment cloud my judgement and for that I apologize. I don't want to say goodbye to Logos, I've always thought of it as a great product and the company as a great company but I cannot ignore all we were promised with Logos 4 which never came to fruition and now I am being presented the opportunity to upgrade to the latest and greatest with some of the same promises and though I am tempted I just don't know if I'm ready to go through it all again and continue to be disappointed. I know all of you don't want to have to read my rants again if Logos 5 doesn't live up to it's promises. I'll just wait and see what happens.

Dennis, thanks for your genuine and thorough reply.  I get what it's like to be so frustrated, I've been there myself.  As for Logos and Mac, you are not the first to be very frustrated.  I don't use Mac, but I would feel it a bit more as you are, if my primary machine happened to be the one where Logos didn't perform as well, especially after investing a lot of money into it.  I also appreciate your candor about your own perceptions of how you have expressed that in the forum.  I do grieve a bit when something I love (Logos), but more importantly--when the frustration with the program seems to be conflated with the motives of the people who are Logos.  I have experienced them as dedicated and responsive men and women, even if all of my wishes have not been met soon enough, or not at all.  I don't say that to dismiss anyone's complaints, including yours.  I hold both realities in tension: unrealized expectations, the blessings that the software does bring, and the real people who are Logos.  

fwiw, I have heard that Mac performance in 5 is much better.  maybe when the free engine comes out, it will improve your own experience.  

 

Thanks for posting.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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