Disappointed

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Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 3:29 AM
Wayne:

Dan DeVilder:
I was almost going to respond that it might be an interesting idea to have a kind of 'pre-release' offer to "loyal" customers.   While that makes sense on one hand, I wonder--could Logos be charged with favoritism by others--with favoring the "rich" . . . and if they made the cut-off threshold at (eg) 9000 dollars spent in 10 years, would the user who spent 8000 cry FOUL~! or, the one who was only a year user, but spent 3000 .. . I think it could be a lose-lose for Logos

I think there will always be some unhappy customers no matter what approach they take. I do think that this upgrade has been smoother than the change to Logos 4.

You have a point. I'm glad the augment this time is more on marketing then software features.
Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 4:28 AM

Fred T Daniel Jr:

Mark, I have nearly the same sentiments.  After many years with Logos/Libronix, i have built an impressive library while taking advantage of pre pubs, sales, etc.  I have L4 Portfolio and a number of special choice books and collections.  I hardly see any value in purchasing more books just for the sake of the engine, and have chosen to just wait for the crossover.  HOWEVER, I am disappointed that customers of long tenure with the larger L4 packages and/or larger libraries were not considered as first-reach-out with the new frillies!!!  I hardly see myself spending $2000 on books I don't know just to get the engine - I have already bought crossovers before and LOTS of books - seems old-timer loyals were forgotten in this new upgrade.

If and when I decide to upgrade, from looking at the choices I'd rather just be able to upgrade to the new engine and datasets with the library I've already built. I am not really interested in the resources on preaching, counseling, etc. Language and textual study is what interests me as well as ancient and historical texts that's why I purchased the previous original languages package.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 4:53 AM

Dennis Miller:
If and when I decide to upgrade, from looking at the choices I'd rather just be able to upgrade to the new engine and datasets with the library I've already built.

In another thread—which one of all these, I don't remember—Phil Gons said the cross grade options should be out soon, maybe a couple of weeks. There will be different options which will contain different data sets. These data sets are resources that make Logos 5 really shine.

One of these should be what you are seeking.

Found it: 419531.aspx and especially 419542.aspx

Hope this helps

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 6:46 AM

Thanks Jack!!

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 9:59 AM

Dennis Miller:

Thanks Jack!!

You are very welcome, and I get to pad my post count Big Smile

Posts 103
Mark O'Hearn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 10:37 AM

It has been mentioned by Logos in another thread that they have made the promise some years ago to always keep this program free.  My hope is that some good would come from all this negativity lately, and that they would actually break this promise, and have all future versions of their wonderful program, with all its functionality, available on launch day to the public. 

Argumentatively, I suppose there could be a fully-featured version, a mainstream version, and a light or free version.  Notwithstanding the critical resources that would be needed for the first two options, this would better separate the program from the base packages and optional resources.  Existing customers, especially with larger libraries, would be better served in my (and many others) opinion.

For all the examples about cars, here is a better analogy in my thinking.  Microsoft just released Windows 8.  Folks can purchase/upgrade to this new OS until Christmas, but must also buy the new version of Microsoft Office.  I can just imagine what the reaction would be from around the world, even if Office came with a great discount price.  At the heart of all this buzz around Logos 5, this is what so many existing customers are simply saying (though not very kind at times).  I praised Logos a couple of days ago when they indicated an upgrade would be made available soon (2-3 weeks).  This will allow folks to upgrade to "Windows 8" and not have to purchase "Office."

Again, I hope they actually break their long-standing promise for future releases.  I for one would be very happy to upgrade my program (with critical resources necessary for new features) on launch day without puchasing additional resources.

Despite all this, still a happy Logos Bible Software customer, and looking forward to eventually using Logos 5.

Regards

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 11:13 AM

Mark O'Hearn:
It has been mentioned by Logos in another thread that they have made the promise some years ago to always keep this program free.  My hope is that some good would come from all this negativity lately, and that they would actually break this promise, and have all future versions of their wonderful program, with all its functionality, available on launch day to the public. 

I don't follow. Are you saying that you want to pay for the software update? Is waiting a few weeks really that difficult to get the free engine?

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 103
Mark O'Hearn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 11:24 AM

I apologize for not being clear.  I, and I believe there are many other existing customers, would like to see future major releases of Logos (Logos 6, 7, 8 . . .) offered as a standalone, fully functioning, program on launch day, just like so many other programs and operating systems.  Obviously, this would not be free, I only suggested that there could be some versions offered, like there has been in the case of Microsoft Windows, though they seem to be moving away from that model.  A simple free version would really be geared to potential new customers in my opinion in any event.

I am waiting, as I stated, for the upgrade.  Logos is a business, I am a customer, this is their forums, I am providing customer feedback, and I am thankful for the opportunity.

Regards

Posts 26
Doug Horst | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 2:34 PM

Dennis Miller:

...

If and when I decide to upgrade, from looking at the choices I'd rather just be able to upgrade to the new engine and datasets with the library I've already built. I am not really interested in the resources on preaching, counseling, etc. Language and textual study is what interests me as well as ancient and historical texts that's why I purchased the previous original languages package.

I am in a similar position though I upgraded from the original languages package to L4 Platinum because it was the most economical way to get some resources I was interested in.  But now I have a moderately high level of disappointment and dissatisfaction with Logos the company at the very poorly communicated roll-out.  I did not have and still do not have a week later all the information available to make rational choices based on my budget and needs and had to spend hours of my time before I could root out the information that at some unspecified time in the future I would have that information.

Furthermore, I have been using Logos since its very earliest days - I think since version 1.1 but the earliest diskettes I can find are for Logos 2.0a. And like many have invested many thousands of dollars purchasing resources and currently have about $1700 on pre-pubs and another $1,000 or so in community pricing bids.  Given my long-term commitment to various Logos platforms, I feel ill-used that the only communication about the Logos5 roll-out I got was an announcement email of the upgrade and a link to a web page in which the only information presented was that I should spend many hundreds of dollars more to get the benefits of Logos 5. No word then and still no word now on the main product pages even after quite a brouhaha that there was a minimum cross-grade coming.  The worst of it was that there was a suggestion in the email that the discounts were for a limited time only.  It just reminds me all too much of those car dealer negotiation/pressure tactics. I counter those with having information about pricing, options and performance.  I have no way of getting that information right now.

I understand Logos's business model is dependent on selling resources but it should also be on retaining long-time customers and because they rolled this out without having the whole campaign planned and having full pricing information available someplace they have disappointed and alienated to some extent this long time customer. My varied background as a software developer and product manager in major financial firms for 25 years and currently a manager of a retail social enterprise as well as a seminary grad have given me a lot of insight into (and sympathy for dealing with) the issues around the Logos business model.  I have decided to be patient and wait until that information is available to make my final decisions but am feeling unnecessarily put upon by what appears to be a rushed and botched product roll-out and it is causing me to doubt the wisdom of my long term commitment to the Logos platform and certainly no longer recommend so unreservedly the platform since I have reservations about the viability of a company does a major product roll-out like this.

 

 

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 2:46 PM

Douglas Horst:
Furthermore, I have been using Logos since its very earliest days

Peace, Douglas!            Me too!            Using logos since the earliest days.          I haven`t been able to put my personal resources together right now to move from L4 Portfolio to L5 Portfolio and will have to live with the cross grade when it comes out at least for a little while until I make my big L5 move!            *smile*

              But, Douglas, have read your post twice and was wondering if the Logos L5 upgrade calculator gave you a price .....     I did receive an upgrade calculator price, both from the computer and from one of Logos sales guys.........

                    Maybe it`s not the best information, but the new to you section has some information; so you may want to try that ....

Anyway, Blessings to you and your family!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 26
Doug Horst | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 4:07 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

...But, Douglas, have read your post twice and was wondering if the Logos L5 upgrade calculator gave you a price .....     I did receive an upgrade calculator price, both from the computer and from one of Logos sales guys.........

Yes I did get a personal quote that has seems to have been consistent over the wee but it is only part of the necessary information.  We don't have prices yet for the minimal cross-grade nor as far as I can tell for the resources I am interested in especially the Septuagint and Apostolic Fathers related information.  And that is my point.  How can I compare what is the most economical way for me to get L5 with the new data bases and resources necessary to make it work and get the resources that best fit my use.  I am not opposed to using the advertised upgrade path if it is the best price (though it will hurt financially) but I will get dozens and maybe hundreds of resources I wouldn't use (depending on whether I would choose the new Silver, Gold Platinum or Diamond packages).  I need the information on pricing of the minimal cross-grade and the resources I really do want to make a rational choice.  My argument is that it should have been presented from the beginning.

From what people are reporting it sounds like Logos 5 is a worthy upgrade and what 4 should have been.  Logos, the company, has detracted from the introduction of a reportedly great product with a campaign that has confused, disappointed and/or angered more than a few long-time customers.

 

Thanks for your reply and peace.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 4:57 PM

Douglas Horst:
Thanks for your reply and peace

  I thank YOU Douglas for your reply and peace.  I think you've actually helped me relax and be patient until I can make some good God-Pleasing decisions on where I go from here.     Not getting any younger!               Have more than I truly need already!                  But, do love God's Word and everything about God's Word and do appreciate all the power of Logos Bible Software!                                                                               Blessings from Eastern Canada!            *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 5:48 PM

Just looking at commentaries, one comment that I could make is that the last major upgrade from version 3 to 4 Platinum was that there was some killer commentaries such as PNTC, NIGCT and BECNT. This gave it a WOW factor. Upgrading to the new Platinum doesn't have these, but does have new titles such as BNTC, LCNT and Exegetical Summaries.  I note that ICT has been dropped even for the upper packages.

This is not entirely bad, though I prefer the older offerings. This being said, it is a different ball game when it comes to included resources with base packages. If you have them from a previous upgrade, then the new upgrade will give you some new commentaries that you might not already have.

The datasets look interesting as well as there are some good materials in these new upgrades in categories other than commentaries.

 

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 6:03 PM

Jeffery A. Clark:

Just another reason why I keep my Libronix 3.

I did the upgrade to Logos 4 Bible Study, despite only using a select few Lutheran resources, and still don't have half the functionality of 3 in 4. None of Luther's Works have been updated to work any faster in Logos 4, in fact, I think some of them are slower.

I think there's wisdom here.

I'm going to looking into options for dowgrading. I'm readily getting tired of this circus.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 6:20 PM

Jeffery A. Clark:

Just another reason why I keep my Libronix 3.

I did the upgrade to Logos 4 Bible Study, despite only using a select few Lutheran resources, and still don't have half the functionality of 3 in 4. None of Luther's Works have been updated to work any faster in Logos 4, in fact, I think some of them are slower.

Peace to you Jeffery!                Welcome to the Logos Forums.  I notice this is your first post.              Please feel free to post left and right and backwards and forwards....  The Forums are designed to try to be a help for us to support each other.

         I particularly noticed that you have a select few Lutheran Resources and that you have according to your post better  functionality of L3 over against L4.

I happen to be a retired LCMS Pastor and have almost all of Concordia Publishing House Resources except a few commentaries that I haven't been able to afford yet.

I also, along with you have Luther's Works  Recently my wife and I gifted our Pastor (we live in Ontario, Canada just east of Toronto) a bunch of electronic books from CPH including Luther's works.  He's a young guy, about 50 and never used Logos before until I introduced him to it.                    Both he and I actually prefer L4 over L3 even though both of us have both on our computers.  Now that L5 is out, I find it is still faster yet than L4.

               I use cCleaner and Defragler regularly and would be very happy to post back a forth a wee bit with you in case you desire it and would like to take a look at L4 again.            I've been using Logos for almost 20 years now and own Portfolio and lots of other resources.  If you'd like I could definitely try helping your maximise your Logos usage.

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 103
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 6:43 PM

Super Tramp:

  • The basic Logos search engine has always been free and still is with L5
  • The basic, free, L5 search engine has not been released for download yet.
  • Logos 5 has some enhancements that use some (not free) databases. If you choose not to upgrade to L5 with all the bells & whistles, and go with the free software instead, you will not experience the full capabilities of L5

Once you work past the user reactions, hype, frustration, anger, disappointment, etc. etc. what Super Tramp says is spot on.

It's is as others have said the process and or methodology or philosophy of Logos which leaves me speechless time and time again. I am sorry to say I am sick and tired of hearing the phrase "I am sorry". If this phrase was counted up and paid for in cents and dollars I fear I'd be a rich man but the phrase itself, I am sorry to say Wink has been maligned and gutted of meaning. Here's a one-liner for you; "a throw away phrase in a throw away society, I am sorry to say."

I've looked at the options and have come back to Logos, there are no serious contenders IMHO.

Philosophy of Logos: This saddens me a great deal. We, the consumers, have been, I fear, turned into a commodity which is being consumed to ensure the survival of the Logos beast. I feel we as Logos "users" have been comodified into something "other" and are simply being exploited to serve personal gain and ambition all in the name of the Logos beast (even religion). As Logos has said, they have to sell books (translate "grow") to survive. Personally I think this is a floored strategy on the part of Logos. Unrestrained growth in a finite world is unsustainable. Period! The model needs to change. As a theologian I find this approach strangely repugnant. It makes me feel disappointed, saddened, diminished as a human being and child of God. This is not God's way! God's renewing Word continues to motivate me to strive for something better. To strive towards a goal which brings out the best in me/us, towards that something more than we thought we could ever possibly be by God's grace. But never at the "expense' of others. Unrestrained consumerism diminishes people, it expends people, it does not build them up. It seems I/we need to reclaim this dignity once again and it grieves me to say but I just can't see how the Logos business philosophy is achieving this in me/us. Eg. the amazing number of heated and even angry postings in this forum is a good indicator of what I am trying to convey here.

Electronic Library: This was a decision I made many years ago: This is a given. Space and the luxury of space for a large hard copy library in my context, hot humid, tropical climate, is not practical or viable. The ability to cross reference / search large numbers of books is nothing short of a miracle in modern technology and Logos is way out in front IMHO with a huge and rapidly growing library of books available at our fingertips. I still remember the awe and amazement on the face of a doctoral colleague seeing a search on the whole of Luther's works unfold before his eyes in a matter of seconds when to that point he'd spent months (literally) going through just the first half of Luther's Works to glean the research material he needed.

Future Direction: SO what is the way forward? There are no easy answers. This is the nature of the beast. Devil My approach after considerable angst is to mitigate my subscription to the Logos business philosophy as much as possible. "Cross grades" from now on. No "Upgrades" for me. I don't need 3,850 books. I'll only ever read maybe 100-200 of the total number of books in my entire Logos library in my entire lifetime and of the total only a small handful are truly relevant to my needs. The rest are just wasted space and wasted resources. The money could be better served by being used elsewhere. A 500 or 1000 or a xxx thousand book library is exactly that a Library. It's the stuff of Libraries but totally unnecessary for my personal use. We the Logos consumers need to ask ourselves is all this really necessary?

A case in point. Humanity has more information available at its fingertips than any generation in the history of man and what has this gained for us? Be honest with yourself? Take any newspaper read it and what do you see? Missionary work has opened my eyes to the "phantasy" of western consumerism on all levels. People here where I work, people who have so little are teaching me that contentment with what we have and a sure faith in God ARE enough! Indeed more than enough!

In conclusion: I'm sticking with Logos bible software. It's not perfect but it has enabled me to reduce my hard copy library to the size of a laptop. Truly amazing stuff! But I am making a conscious decision to mitigate my involvement in what I've already described above. I'm claiming this for myself and not "buying" into an unsustainable, unrestrained consumerism which I feel only compounds the problem we face in the west. Unrestrained consumerism on every level is literally killing us in the west and this is not what I want to pass on as a model in Christian life and living to my family and those around me.

With this rethinking on my part I am content with the Logos beast because the window is still open in the Logos business model for me to distance myself from a consumerist type business model. I.e. I can upgrade to the new Logos 5 engine for free and I can cross grade without having to "upgrade" my library with another 200+ unnecessary books and another serious hit to my limited funds.

But, and this is a clear warning to Logos, if Logos closes this option off, if I can't opt out of what I see is a consumerist business model I'll be selling my library. I choose to distance myself and refuse to be part of any such imposition by others on my self and person. I don't want to be party to the problem. I choose to offer and show to others there is a better way to life and living which breeds contentment and peace like nothing else. The Jesus way (from Eugene Peterson's book of the same title).

Blessings to you all in Jesus name.

Simon
Nan
Thailand

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 6:54 PM

Thank you Simon.

Question/thoughts for others: What is all this mess about data bases?

You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?

What are they and how are they not a function of the software searching the data of OUR books?

It's a question, I don't know the answer, so I'm asking.

I really don't like being forced to but a bunch of titles I don't need, nor want, just to get the full function of the software and, if the software is not fully functional without the Databases, how is it the databases are not part of the software?

Just asking .

 

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 6:58 PM

BTW, I probably use approx. 40-50 percent of the titles in my library, if that, the rest are just junk to me after owning them for a while.

Sadly, I must say: I don't think I am very wise. 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 7:59 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?

That is absolutely not true, and has been refuted numerous times on these forums. Why do you insist on publishing this?

Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 8:34 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?

There must be a dozen or more posts on these forums directly addressed at you, all explaining that that you do not have to spend any "thousands of dollars" to get these databases. All you need is the Crossgrade. So why do you keep spreading this misinformation? Do you really think it's nice to use Logos own forums to slander them?

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
What are they and how are they not a function of the software searching the data of OUR books?

The databases are content, just like your books are content. They're not "a function of the software". They don't search your books. They are searched, just like your books are. The software is free, content costs.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
if the software is not fully functional without the Databases, how is it the databases are not part of the software?

The software is 100% functional without any of the databases, just as it is 100% functional without a Hebrew Bible, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the Works of Luther. Yes, you can't do a Hebrew Bible search without a Hebrew Bible, you can't follow a link to the CCC or read Luther's sermons, if you don't have those resources, but that doesn't mean the software isn't functional, just that you haven't bought the content you need to do those things. In the same way the software can't search a database if you don't have that database. It's as simple as that. You don't expect Logos to give you books for free, do you, so why do you expect them to give you databases for free?

If you don't understand what these databases are or do, why are you so desperate to get them? Two weeks ago you hadn't heard of them, and even now you don't seem to know what to do with them, yet you behave like you can't live without them. 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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