Disappointed

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This post has 272 Replies | 18 Followers

Posts 499
SteveHD | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 9:35 PM

Maybe if all customers could, like the people paying new money, get their hands on the new version, they could better understand what you understand. In the meantime people like me have to just guess how it all works.

A product I have invested thousands into in the past and I have to guess what it looks like now, how it works now and when I might get it in a format that does not require me to buy more resources I do not want.

I have read people who seem to know what they are talking about but state anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to after Christmas. I come to the forum in the morning hoping for some good news about crossgrades. I come to the forum in the evening hoping for some good news about crossgrades.

Imagine that little kid walking away from the ballpark cause there were just too many bigger kids already filling the teams. Kind of left out. You wouldn’t lecture him would you? It's as simple as that; there’s no room for you.

I work with SQL databases all day. I do not understand any of these explanations. I think you are saying that my 3 thousand dollar car will have a new engine that has the potential to run but if I do not buy gas from you I can only sit in it, move the seats around, call people on my Bluetooth and listen to the radio. The car won’t go anywhere till I pay for the content (gas).

I am tired of checking back regularly. I have cancelled all pre-Publication specials (including a 2 year old Alford set that lasted since 2010 through two versions of the product and still is not released). I have cancelled community bids. Hopefully sometime in the future I will mosey back by and find some good news. In the meantime I am strictly a spectator.

Posts 103
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 9:52 PM

Here, here Yes on a brave stand.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 11:07 PM

SHotchkiss:
Maybe if all customers could, like the people paying new money, get their hands on the new version, they could better understand what you understand.

I don't have it any more than you do.

SHotchkiss:
I have read people who seem to know what they are talking about but state anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to after Christmas.

Logos answer was given yesterday:

Phil Gons:

Graeme Adams:
So, just to confirm we will have a cross-grade in a week?

No official commitment yet, but we're working on it now and could have it live on the website in the next week or two. Again, that's not a guarantee. That represents our current plans. We'll provide a concrete date as soon as it's available.

Graeme Adams:
Any indiction of costs for a 'full feature' cross-grade? 

We're still working on the exact contents that the MCs will include. The smaller one, which might lack one or two features, will probably be between $75 and $150. The larger one, with all the features plus a few core resources, will probably be between $150 and $300, depending on which version of the software you're moving from. For Logos 4 users, it'll be on the lower end of those ranges. For Logos 3, it'll be a bit more expensive. For Logos 2 users, even more.

For Logos 5 Starter to Silver users who are just looking to pick up the missing features, it'll be significantly lower. Dynamic pricing will apply to both products, so the ownership discount will be applied as appropriate.

And remember, Logos came out with 4.6a less than two weeks ago. Normally you wouldn't have gotten another update until January or so.

SHotchkiss:

 

I think you are saying that my 3 thousand dollar car will have a new engine that has the potential to run but if I do not buy gas from you I can only sit in it, move the seats around, call people on my Bluetooth and listen to the radio. The car won’t go anywhere till I pay for the content (gas).

 

No, they're saying that the brand new engine that they put in for free will make your car run better than ever. You just won't get the fancy DVD-player for the kids in the back seat unless you pay a little extra.

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 18
Thomas Thornhill | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 12:30 AM

Thanks for updating us.  I have a question of clarification.  Looking at L5, I want some (or all) of the new databases, but I really don't need many new books.  However, I am considering an\ slight upgrade (scholar's to starter or bronze), funds are limited right now.  My question is that if I do this, will the databases NOT offered in bronze be available individually (I think the first day I was seeing them around $20 for some of them) but I suspect due to volume they were removed, etc.)?

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 12:47 AM

Thomas Thornhill:
will the databases NOT offered in bronze be available individually

Not individually, but as Phil stated in the quote I gave above:

Phil Gons:

We're still working on the exact contents that the MCs will include. The smaller one, which might lack one or two features, will probably be between $75 and $150. The larger one, with all the features plus a few core resources, will probably be between $150 and $300, depending on which version of the software you're moving from. For Logos 4 users, it'll be on the lower end of those ranges. For Logos 3, it'll be a bit more expensive. For Logos 2 users, even more.

For Logos 5 Starter to Silver users who are just looking to pick up the missing features, it'll be significantly lower. Dynamic pricing will apply to both products, so the ownership discount will be applied as appropriate.

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 18
Thomas Thornhill | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 12:52 AM

Thanks Phil.  I'll do something soon.  Have a good night (or shall I say morning).Big Smile

Posts 18
Thomas Thornhill | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 12:53 AM

Oops.  Sorry.  Thanks #4228. Smile

Posts 15
Joel Tamburo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 1:05 AM

I also am unhappy. I purchased an LE edition and added the Early Church Fathers to it. I also got to find out over the past months that searching in Logos 4 is effectively broken. I should not have to go the internet to do word or phrase searches then come back to Logos to go to the actual passages. The Logos search engine in 4 is way too literal and goes not properly handle the *like* function so crucial to proper searching.

So I get the email that Logos 5 is out, and see in the website promos that they reworked the search into something more rational. Cool I think - then I discover my MINIMUM cost to get that item (which should be a bug fix) is over $300 and I can't even tell if I would still have my ECF books. 

 

Sorry Logos but this looks and feels like a scam. I expected better from fellow Christians.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 1:41 AM

Joel Tamburo:
I also am unhappy. I purchased an LE edition and added the Early Church Fathers to it. I also got to find out over the past months that searching in Logos 4 is effectively broken. I should not have to go the internet to do word or phrase searches then come back to Logos to go to the actual passages.

doesn't sound like a good experience at all.  What happened--can you tell a little  more about it?

Joel Tamburo:

The Logos search engine in 4 is way too literal and goes not properly handle the *like* function so crucial to proper searching.

I'd like to know a little more about this as well--btw, the new databases should help complexify the types of searches we can do.  But I am still wondering what you mean by "too literal."

Joel Tamburo:
So I get the email that Logos 5 is out, and see in the website promos that they reworked the search into something more rational.

i see you have a glimpse of the new possibilities.

Joel Tamburo:
Cool I think - then I discover my MINIMUM cost to get that item (which should be a bug fix) is over $300

that is for a bunch of resources additionally to what you own (depending on your package):commentaries, theology, etc.  It also includes hand-built databases on a variety of fronts to help do the things you are wanting, and more.  HOWEVER, if you note above, and on other threads, if you can be patient, maybe for just a few weeks, a free engine will be available (better performance, new interface, etc) or you will have the option for minimal crossgrades that will allow you to purchase the new databases without also investing in a lot of resources.  Those might be options you will find very helpful to you.

Joel Tamburo:
and I can't even tell if I would still have my ECF books. 

maybe other software does that, but in Logos, you never lose your already purchased resources, even if the publisher would take away new purchase rights.  I have commentary sets no longer offered by Logos, and have gone through 2 or 3 upgrades with them.  Happy Day!  Smile

Joel Tamburo:
Sorry Logos but this looks and feels like a scam

thank you for being so frank and forthright.  I hope some of my comments have helped you see that you are not being scammed, but in fact have several choices available and coming soon, and are not going to lose anything you have purchased.  Hopefully that will be some relief to you.

Joel Tamburo:
I expected better from fellow Christians.

I have experienced my fellow brothers, sisters, and friends at Logos to be quite generous, responsive, and hard-working.  They are pretty human, but maybe you will also experience that they will do right by you.  Keep posting, stay in touch!  Thanks.

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 10769
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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 1:48 AM

Joel Tamburo:
I also got to find out over the past months that searching in Logos 4 is effectively broken.

Joel, welcome to the Logos user forum.

We try to help each other here with using the software, and getting it to run in case of problems. Often, learning the way something works in a complex software helps a lot - sometimes we find small bugs and help the developers to re-create the specific issue in order to fix it. Now I don't recall anything even remotely suggesting that "searching is broken" (actually a bible study software is foremost about searching in the firstplace) from other users, and it seems you never made your way here to raise a bug.

Joel Tamburo:
The Logos search engine in 4 is way too literal and goes not properly handle the *like* function so crucial to proper searching.

I'd think "like" is an advanced search feature that has a lot to do with the underlying data the search is running against. Most often it is realized internally as string comparisons with wildcards, which actually is something Logos does support. Maybe its a problem of  search syntax you have - can you give some examples what you want to search for? 

Joel Tamburo:
I discover my MINIMUM cost to get that item (which should be a bug fix) is over $300 and I can't even tell if I would still have my ECF books. 

Joel, I believe a google search of the forum posts, new Logos websites and Logos blog entries over the last week would give a vast amount of hits like "you'll not lose any of your books". Also many, maybe even more would come up like "You'll only pay for additional books".

There will be a free engine shortly which will not give you more books or new databases (and thus only a minimum of new features). From your post I can't really tell which item you're interested in. If it is searching for subject and object of clauses - thus finding e.g. sentences where Paul speaks of himself, using "I" - this new feature is AFAIK unique to Logos, since it is powered from a new database that Logos developed. You won't find it anyplace else. To have this, those who don't want to buy additional books will get a Mimimum Crossgrade.

There's no indication that there's a minimum cost to get a bug fix for over $300 - it seems your unhappiness may come from incomplete information rather than soemone trying to scam you.    

Please come back if you need additional info other users could give you - or ask Logos directly.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 28
Colin Ware | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 4:07 AM

I have come in late here only recently finding out about Logos 5 recently. I apologise if this repeats some earlier points but I find it difficult to absorb all the points in this forum item. I too would be reluctant to move to L5. It is not the cost so much as all newer  software costs something. There are other my reason for my caution which feeds my disappointment.

I have still not mastered L4.  Having also spent $$$ on some of the training aids  which I am still working through I feel moving to L5 would be a waste of money let alone the daunting task of trying to master new processes all together if the change from L3 to L4 is any gauge.

I was somewhat taken back by the what appeared to me a sudden appearance of L5. It may have been announced earlier but I do not read forums regularly because I find a number difficult to appreciate. It is a little off putting when the time between versions of the software is a lot sooner than from when prepublications are offered to when they become available.

While not completely L5, there are associated issues with Logos which I find frustrating which don't appear to being addressed. If you change your email login  the count of forum entries restarts. You email address cannot be changed on your home page. The website still does not recognise all the items you purchase particularly those broken from collections. After shopping on line and you add to cart when you click on more shopping it sends you back to the beginning of the list not to the last point. (If you have just been browsing through pages of items and come upon an item you have not seen or known about before this is very annoying). When you change your email you get multiple emails for the same thing. You get offers for items you already have. You cannot get a deal for collections that include items you already have. I can understand that somethings particularly bigger things have priority but when minor things are not looked at over a period of time one becomes frustrated at least.

These frustrations together with my earlier reservations means I will also wait.

Colin

 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 4:31 AM

Colin Ware:
reluctant to move to L5 .... I have still not mastered L4. Having also spent $$ on some of the training aids which I am still working through I feel moving to L5 would be a waste of money

Colin,

no need to worry: L4 is still working today as it did yesterday, Logos hasn't stopped the development - they fixed many bugs and introduced new features to the latest L4 version just a week ago and are continuing development - a new beta is underway. So you may choose to stay with L4 for the moment and there's nothing wrong with it from either side.

Colin Ware:
I was somewhat taken back by the what appeared to me a sudden appearance of L5. It may have been announced earlier but I do not read forums regularly

There have been rumours about L5 for quite some time, including the officially released look-into-the-future papers for Faithlife that showed integration to L5. However, what's the problem?

Colin Ware:
While not completely L5, there are associated issues with Logos which I find frustrating .....

The issues you state all refer to functionality of the Logos website - some are known shortcomings of it, some look to me as if they were fixed some time ago. Since this is totally unrelated to L5, I'd suggest you discuss these in the website subforum if you're interested in the current state of affairs and possibly an answer from the Logos people responsible for that. 

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 4:45 AM

If my memory is correct concerning databases and datasets, A dataset contains the resultant data of a search performed on a database to aid in speed of retrieval of requested data per a particular dataset. In other words some of the work has already been done for you and put in a more convenient and speedier place for retrieval.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 7:57 AM

Thank you SMack and SHotchkiss for your posts.

SHotchkiss, I too am in IT, and I also don't understand this mess. I create servers all day long, I support Oracle, SQL, Windows Servers, Cisco gear, NAS devices, Linux servers, phone systems, high availability clusters, and internet connections.

All this technology and automation, and from Logos we're told the high prices we pay is for indexing and single pane of glass.

I'm baffled by the idea that in order to get functionality from the program we have to buy these NEW AND IMPROVED base sets, but then to justify the huge cost increase that the new sets garner, we're told it is because of all the added literary resources. This seems inconsistent. Why not just keep the base packages the same, with no additional books, and roll the features up into the new base packages with all the old books and give the upgrade to the current customers for free?

The program has now ceased to be free, and now is a pay for app.

Logos seems to be going down the same frustrating route that EMC, SAP, Oracle, IBM, and every other frustrating company that has been attempting to eek every penny out of every customer's pocket and playing games with the customers because the "loyalty" is so strong they just can.

A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.

I too have cancelled all my pre-pubs and community bids.

Posts 2
Augustine Cyril Chow | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:04 AM

That is understandable... but the facts are:

 

1) they have not announced any pure software upgrade version and costs;

2) the quote they provide on upgrade did not consider the extra books already purchased by the user.  They are overcharging us for the upgrade.

3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose.  Their bundling with less desirable books is an unethical sales.

Shame on them.

 

Augustine Chow

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:21 AM

Augustine Cyril Chow:
the facts are:

Well let's check what the facts are:

Augustine Cyril Chow:
1) they have not announced any pure software upgrade version and costs;

They have. Actually, the CEO, Bob Pritchett, himself has. The post is made sticky for everyone to see right at the top of General forum.

The cost of the pure software upgrade version are: USD 0.00, as in free

Augustine Cyril Chow:
2) the quote they provide on upgrade did not consider the extra books already purchased by the user.

Actually I have not seen one example that would prove this true. The developers say there hasn't been one issue of this happening. There was one book on the first day where the title didn't make clear that it's a 2012 newly revised and enlarged edition. No one pays again for existing resources.

Augustine Cyril Chow:
3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose.
Wonder what the website does, what the sales people do on the phone until late at night, what Bradley, Phil, etc. do literally around the clock and over the weekend.

Your facts are bogus. 

 

 


 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:35 AM

Ryan:
A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.

Dear Ryan,

I appreciate that this thread is long, but it would be to your advantage to review some of the responses in the posts that proceed your own. You have raised a point which has been addressed previously. You have raised concerns which have been dismissed as factually incorrect.

For absolute clarity, Logos have advised that they will release both a minimal crossgrade and the L5 engine at no cost (i.e. free). The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost. The L5 engine will provide you with the software, but not the new added functionality.

Alternatively, you are at liberty to continue to use L4 indefinitely. L4 is and continues to be supported. Indeed, I understand that further service releases are planned.

Blessings Big Smile

Posts 10740
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:44 AM

Ryan:
Why not just keep the base packages the same, with no additional books, and roll the features up into the new base packages with all the old books and give the upgrade to the current customers for free?

Logos is not the only company in this mix. The publishers who own the copyrights to the resources can—and often do—require Logos to pull their packages from the base packages and sell them separately.

Ryan:
The program has now ceased to be free

Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.

Posts 11070
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:54 AM

Now, now. Let's back the truck up a bit. We ran over a piece of fact.

Logos so far has NOT put out information that allows the existing customers to know whether they should upgrade or crossgrade. I'm not talking about the free engine. If you read Bob's quotes and then Phil's, it may well be the upgrade is a better path than the crossgrade price-wise. But who knows?

In my mind, unless a customer really likes the titles and the prices, they're crazy to be purchasing 'upgrades' right now.

Are they SURE that the crossgrade will appear before their 30-day return runs out??

But it's not by accident quite a few 'star' people are quietly waiting.  Experienced Logosians.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:57 AM

Bob Pritchett:
In every case you just get (and only pay for!) what's different between what you have and what you're getting

 

Sorry to correct, but that is not necessarily true. When I looked to upgrade, I went to the "what's new to you" tab and looked at the resources and found in the first list 3-4 books that I currently have that I bought with Logos 4 Platnium. So I am going to have to purchase, again, those same books. One example is the New American Commentary. I know that they added some more voulmes to that since in came out in Logos 4, but the "what's new to you" tab said that I am purchasing 40 volumes. Hmmmm???? They have not added 40 volumes to that collection since Logos 4. Also the Cascadia.....I bought that with Logos 4, I have to but that again. That is just a couple of things.

I think that Logos need to stop, and not wait to make THEIR language on the web site right by their customers, but do something immediately. The language that you use on some parts of the web site are misleading and Bob needs to do something to make it right!

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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