Disappointed

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This post has 272 Replies | 18 Followers

Posts 3
Matt Fontes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:42 AM

I'm in nearly the same position, Joe. Purchased Platinum in the Spring and have been totally sidelined by this. I'll be happy with a "crossgrade" when it comes available, but I'm hoping it won't take 6 months. The new updates look impressive and I don't want to miss out on them.

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:58 AM

Ryan:
When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it.

Software usually has an end of life even if bought outright (Microsoft no longer supports Windows NT and the Office 2003 that we use on over 10,000 workstation will EOL next year. There is also usually cost for support even if support can't fix our problem. To get the ongoing updates and support you are talking about for commercial software (Microsoft, Oracle, or IBM) requires a substantial annual cost (we pay all three of these companies annual fees at my day job).

Logos is better at providing fixes and updates than any other company I've know (I'm looking at service release 4 on software that was released last Thursday) and we get lifetime support (including free upgrades to the software engine and upgrades to books).

As far as volunteers creating an alternative there are some very good free programs with good quality public domain works already available. Two of them also offer a few more current books for sale.  These are good options for those who can't or won't invest in commercial software.  The same thing happens with other types of software.  Gimp vs Photoshop for example.  While free solutions are good enough for some I doubt they will ever be competitive with commercial software (If you need Photoshop you need Photoshop) Smile

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 11:26 AM

Mike W:

Ryan:
When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it.

Software usually has an end of life even if bought outright (Microsoft no longer supports Windows NT and the Office 2003 that we use on over 10,000 workstation will EOL next year. There is also usually cost for support even if support can't fix our problem. To get the ongoing updates and support you are talking about for commercial software (Microsoft, Oracle, or IBM) requires a substantial annual cost (we pay all three of these companies annual fees at my day job).

Logos is better at providing fixes and updates than any other company I've know (I'm looking at service release 4 on software that was released last Thursday) and we get lifetime support (including free upgrades to the software engine and upgrades to books).

My argument is that the premium I pay for Logos resources is akin to the support agreement I have for commercial software.

I support this argument with the following-

 

Bob Pritchett:

So if Logos is a retailer, why don't we chop 25% off the list price, like Amazon or some web retailer? Because we don't (yet) have similar cost structures. Our sale of the book for Logos format costs more to execute and support than Amazon's. Amazon gets a paper copy, puts it in a database, and ships copies to you. Then they're done. We do more technical work, have to continue to update the software engine, provide tech support, etc. (Amazon may have to support you on the Kindle, but that's easier than supporting Logos desktop software, and you had to pay the for the Kindle. Our software was "free" -- with the cost of writing it supported from our cut of the book's sale.)

...

If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11152/87648.aspx#87648
Bob Pritchett:
Alas, the electronic market is still smaller than the print market. (Amazing, isn't it?) So while production costs on electronic are similar to print (we don't pay for typesetting or paper, but we do much more extensive tagging and data preparation, and we have to "re-invent the printing press" every few years -- i.e. develop the software platform.)
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6745/55131.aspx#55131

These statements seem to indicate that the price we pay for books is inclusive of tagging, software updates, etc. The "buying a Logos book experience" if you will.

It's not just some simple Amazon book for reading, you're buying in to Logos, and the capabilities of the software. That's why I purchased Logos versions of BDAG, HALOT, NICOT/NICNT instead of new/used/kindle. I was buying the books AND the development of the software platform, the "re-invent the printing press" premium I paid for a Logos literary resource.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 5:51 PM

Pastor Michael Huffman:
One example is the New American Commentary. I know that they added some more voulmes to that since in came out in Logos 4, but the "what's new to you" tab said that I am purchasing 40 volumes.

(I may have missed it, but I don't think this was answered here, though it's been answered in many other places.)

No, it's saying that at present you don't have the whole 40 volume set, but if you purchase that package you will. You only pay for the volumes you don't have, however, the rest have been credited.

Pastor Michael Huffman:

Jack Caviness:
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.

I have yet to find the Logos 5 engine for free!!!

Like Jack said: "It just has not been released yet". It will be. Just wait a few weeks.

Matt Fontes:
I'll be happy with a "crossgrade" when it comes available, but I'm hoping it won't take 6 months.

The latest info is 1-2 weeks.

EDIT: The latest info just changed to 'next week if nothing unforeseen happens'.

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 6:39 PM

Ryan:

My argument is that the premium I pay for Logos resources is akin to the support agreement I have for commercial software.

 

And we all get the updates to books and a free upgrade of the underlying software engine (not to mention phone support) for as long as we own the resources.  I don't expect new resources for free (some of the additional functionality in L4 over L3 and in L5 over L4 require(d) additional content to make them useful).  Like everyone else who uses Logos I regularly receive updates to books which include corrections and additional linking to new resources as well as free updates to the software itself.  Logos has promised that we will always be able to use our resources and that the software to use those resources will be free.  So far it seems that they have kept their promise.  

Logos has promised that the L5 engine will be available for free before too long. Any customer can get that and benefit from faster code and the additional functionality that doesn't require additional resources.  At the very least on the Mac side this means that we get a huge improvement in performance and full screen mode at no additional cost. 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 6:45 PM

Dennis Miller:
after receiving a personal email from Bob concerning my disappointment with L4

Dennis: Thank you for posting this.

Posts 15
Joel Tamburo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 2:59 PM

Hi again!

In response to the call for examples, just try searching in Logos for something like Pauline exception. You get loads of nonsensical hits and the bible Search option yields nothing. Put the same phrase in Bing - even misspell it on purpose. Guess what? You still go directly to the relevant topic which is of course the Pauline exception on remarriage concept. The same is true on any number of other such items.

The search engine in 4 is too literal in that it does not account for typos and also it literally looks for your words one at a time or together. That type of search is fine if the searcher knows the exact spelling and working of what they seek but in all other cases it doesn't work. And really if free web searches like Bing are context intelligent than Legos should be in all versions out of the box - not as a paid upgrade.

As to scamming, I stated that this feels like one not that it is one. I am more than willing to be convinced that it is not and is instead just a communication mistake.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 3:45 PM

Joel Tamburo:
Put the same phrase in Bing - even misspell it on purpose

If you are willing to maintain a large server farm, you too can have desktop Bing. If you read any computer books on how searches are processed in Bing, Google, etc. and the resources these searches require, you will understand why it cannot be done on your desktop - it has to be done on large server farms. In addition if you don't stop at the 1st or 2nd page, you often find that search engine results are as absurd as some of the Logos mismatches. Why? because Logos uses the same basic logic and technology ... pared down to desktop size. As for Bing and Google recognizing misspelling, I often have trouble getting them to search for what I want because their spell-checker thinks it knows more about what I want than I do. It's a two-edged sword for which I prefer the option of suggested not automatic "correction".

All of which is to say, compare Logos to other desktop applications not to huge server-farm applications. The latter will make you green with envy chasing a (currently) impossible dream app.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 4:11 PM

MJ. Smith:
As for Bing and Google recognizing misspelling, I often have trouble getting them to search for what I want because their spell-checker thinks it knows more about what I want than I do. It's a two-edged sword for which I prefer the option of suggested not automatic "correction".

Indeed! Try searching Google for Logos and you will get not only logos and logo's, but also an awful lot of logo's. Restrict the search to images and it will look like this:

I think Bob would prefer that page to look a little differently.Big Smile

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 8
Craig Bagley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 7:36 PM

I don't understand your confusion. You pay for content, and you keep your content across software upgrades. So the books you received with your L4 platinum will still be with you when you "upgrade" to the L5 software, package names notwithstanding. Logos will not erase the content from your library you previously paid to use in old versions. Wait around for the minimal crossgrade and simply upgrade to the new version at a cheap price. Keep your old content in the new system and call it whatever you want. Named packages are pricey, and they help Logos sell content I would otherwise not purchase (or use...ever). They have to walk a line to make money on digital content. Aside from not selling many individual commentaries, Logos has been very accommodating to me.

Posts 165
Wayne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 8:09 PM

Ryan:
This argument doesn't sit well with me. Bandwidth and drive space is getting cheaper by the minute. With things like Amazon EC2 and the cost of a TB locally hosted, the cost is easily under under $200 per TB per month, and the bandwidth is pittance.

The bigger cost for Logos is the free customer support that they offer. This is very expensive and getting to be less common all the time.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 8:20 PM

My comment about bandwidth was a response to-

I have no problem with Logos being prudent and utilizing server capacity (which isn't free) to prioritize customers who do wnat the more expensive upgrade options.

If we want to discuss the cost of free customer support as factored into the expense of the software, that's a different discussion.

Food for thought, I embrace Redbox, and celebrate the bankruptcy of Blockbuster.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 8:44 PM

SHotchkiss:

I work with SQL databases all day. I do not understand any of these explanations. 

For a query in a SQL database to return data, the underlying tables needs rows containing the desired data.

Logos 5 has expanded the library database infrastructure: e.g. Bible Sense Lexicon in Tools.  The new software engine includes new data type definitions.  Without resources containing appropriate data, using the new features is like select * from [an empty table] that returns nothing even though [an empty table] can have lots of columns with various data types.

Minimal crossgrades will include purchase options for the human refined data in the new Logos 5 data sets: e.g. Reported Speech.

The Logos 5 upgrade rules have changed.  The dynamic pricing engine calculates credit for all resource licenses in all package upgrades, including Verbum.  Thankful for option to choose different Logos package(s).  Noticed Logos 5 Starter package includes 4 of the 16 new data sets plus a number of media resources and Bible Reference resources.  The Silver package includes 15 of the 16 new data sets plus more resources.  The Gold package has resources for all the new Logos 5 features.

To encourage sales of larger packages, Logos has additional % discount during launch promotion: e.g. up to 30 % off for upgrade to Logos 5 Portfolio package, whose content bundling has changed.  The upgrade page shows an icon "New to you" if an upgrade has one or more new resources: e.g. NAC Commentary of 40 volumes has "New" icon when only 1 would be added; personally wish for a count of new resources to appear with "New to you" icon.

Am aware of a Logos 4 Platinum user who is planning a Logos Silver "upgrade" for $ 256.54 since the higher packages do not have enough new useful resources for that user; less expensive to purchase a few resources individually that could include minimal crossgrade for Bible Sense Lexicon.  The Silver package includes Theological Lexicons of the Old and New Testaments along with the complete works of Francis A Schaeffer, whose regular prices are more than the dynamic upgrade amount.

Personally upgraded from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Portfolio; my delta upgrade cost from Diamond to Portfolio was less than 10 % of the combined regular price for a number of items in my wish list.  Looking forward to using many "new" resources with Logos 5.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 15
Joel Tamburo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 11:57 PM

I hate to tell you this but there are numerous web services that do exactly what I am describing. Also, the ability to accommodate mild misspellings can be simply programmed (I have done it myself before) with a simple routine that starts inserting wildcards into words that do not appear in the exact spelling.

The point is that a Bible study program is all about its search engine. Bad search engine means the program is not that good. A really good search engine means the program prospers.

By the way, just to really see I installed QuickVerse Platinum 2009 and tried the phrases - it hit with no issues. QuickVerse (before it was bought out) sold for rather a lot less than Logos and even back in its 09 version had proper search.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 2:24 AM

Joel Tamburo:
I hate to tell you this but there are numerous web services that do exactly what I am describing. Also, the ability to accommodate mild misspellings can be simply programmed (I have done it myself before) with a simple routine that starts inserting wildcards into words that do not appear in the exact spelling.

<editted out my qualifications> We are talking of PC applications which have to run under the constraints of an average family computer equipment budget. In addition, your description of the routine sound suspiciously like an English routine - inflected languages such as Latin, Spanish and Greek need a somewhat different approach. Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic I'm not qualified to speak on. German and Turkish give me a headaches ... and then there are those little issues with non-alphabetic or semi-alphabetic languages ... Chinese, Japanese ... those users seem to have inordinate problems with searching their texts ... something about typos.When Bing allows me to do root, stem and cognate searches I promise to be impressed.  In the meantime I will pay for Logos to do what Bing does not and use Google/X1 to do what Logos does not.

PS. I will admit that Bing is the search engine that brings out my saltiest language ... (it only took me twenty some years to use the first pound of salt I purchased so I obviously have very salty language.Big Smile)

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 4:16 AM

MJ. Smith:
PS. I will admit that Bing is the search engine that brings out my saltiest language ... (it only took me twenty some years to use the first pound of salt I purchased so I obviously have very salty language.Big Smile)

Could you make a sailor blush? Hmm

Just a bit tired of reading the same objections from the same posters across multiple threads.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 8:00 AM

Why was Len Stitt's comment removed?

Posts 9
Leonard T. Stitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 8:06 AM

Wondered that myself. Here it is again.

 

The Logos pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.

This said from a user who bought the very first Logos program decades ago and has spent MANY thousands of dollars to get to the level of use (Platinum Edition) that I have currently.

Today I am in the process of removing all my pre-publication orders.

Good-bye from a long-time, loyal and now dissatisfied missionary user of Logos products.

Len Stitt

Executive Director

Sozo International

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 8:37 AM

Just guessing here: Maybe the forum software removed it automatically as a potential spam post since Mr. Stitt posted the same identical text to several forums.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 8:43 AM

Leonard T. Stitt:

The Logos pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.

Len, perhaps you've misunderstood something. To the best of my knowledge, we're not being deceptive anywhere. I hate deception in marketing, and as the Director of Marketing I take charges of deception very seriously. Can you please point me to where you think our messaging has been deceptive so I can correct it or work to clear up any misunderstanding? Thanks!

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