Logos is NOT a Ministry

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This post has 53 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:30 AM

I just want to point something out to all the folks who are trying really hard to defend Logos in this entire mess over Logos 5.

Logos is not a ministry.

In case you missed the point, just take a look at Bob's latest blog post:

http://firesomeonetoday.com/profit_is_why_you_are_in_business.html

He has clearly stated what Logos is about in his writing for some time. So is it wrong to call Logos on their bad decisions? For instance:

  • Selling public domain books, and restricting individual users from coding those same books up on their own time and sharing them.
  • Totally ignoring those with privacy concerns --to the point of mocking.
  • The current Logos 5 mess, including an almost total disregard for previous investment on the part of many users in terms of pricing.

No, it's not.

I'm to the point, right now, that I put up with Logos, the company, so I can use Logos, the product. If Logos wants to be treated with more respect by their users, then they need to treat their users with more respect. It seems like a simple equation to me, but I think Logos might be losing sight of the big picture.

Posts 8655
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:34 AM

Russ White:
The current Logos 5 mess, including an almost total disregard for previous investment on the part of many users in terms of pricing.
what part of your Logos 4 software investment has been disabled?

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:39 AM

TCBlack:
what part of your Logos 4 software investment has been disabled?

So your answer is --it doesn't matter what Logos does, so long as they don't disable your current software? They could release a new version of the software that only non-users could buy, and that would be fine, because they've not actually disabled your current software.

In other words, your answer is to mock.

Sorry, but my investment is in MORE than a software package. It's in resources, and time, and the environment at large, not in a specific piece of software. A company that considers itself a "Christian" company should respect those investments, and not make cheap excuses like, "your Logos 4 hasn't been disabled, has it?"

And, since you've entered the conversation with such wise and wonderful words, I take it that you object to my original contention --that Logos is not a ministry, but a business that should be called on its bad decisions, like any other business.

Which means you now get to explain why you think Logos is a ministry, rather than a business.

I'm waiting.

Posts 2241
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:43 AM

I think I disagree with your definition of the word "ministry". Perhaps this thread should be relabeled "Logos does not fit within my understanding of a Ministry"

the Logos business model does assist in my ability to learn and proclaim God's Word accurately and in that sense ministers to me and the congregation I serve.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:46 AM

David Thomas:
I think I disagree with your definition of the word "ministry".

Well, you think a "ministry" is in business to make a profit first? Did you read Bob's very own blog post?

With your definition, Google is a ministry, because it helps me to find information on the Internet that helps me learn more as a Christian, and Microsoft is a ministry because I use Word to write papers for school. I think your definition of "ministry," in return, might be a bit to broad.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:47 AM

Russ,

I've not been silent when Logos does things that I find annoying or bad practice. But what gets me in much of the discussion over Logos 5 is most people are arguing inaccuracies. Part of this is Logos' fault: some things could have been communicated better - much better. But the information is out there, both on the Logos website and on the forums (over and over again) and yet people continue to bash Logos for issues that aren't real.

So, for instance, your comment about disregarding previous investment is not accurate. They have disregarded nothing and even offer discounts on new investments because of previous investments.

And how has Logos restricted anyone sharing anything they create? They have talked about future limitations so that they don't provide the means for free products to compete with their products - that only makes good business sense. They don't want to provide the medium by which you keep them from selling books. To some degree they already provide that medium by even giving the tools to create personal books. But you will not be stopped from sharing book files through other means, and as far as I know they are not now doing anything to restrict people.

As for privacy concerns, Logos 5 includes new options that I think will help many with concerns. Under Settings they have the "Send Feedback" option with choices "All, Anonymous, and None". Don't want them getting any info on your usage? Just set that to none. Don't mind them having it so long as it's private? Set it anonymous. 

Posts 11331
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:50 AM

Chris ... not disagreeing with your points but on your last paragraph, you might want to take a look at Logos4.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:52 AM

Chris Roberts:
So, for instance, your comment about disregarding previous investment is not accurate. They have disregarded nothing and even offer discounts on new investments because of previous investments.

Again, you're talking in terms of being able to use existing books. I'm arguing there's more to the investment than just the books.

Chris Roberts:
And how has Logos restricted anyone sharing anything they create?

Logos has clearly said they did not intend for PBB to be used for sharing books in the public domain which they also sell. This has been made clear many times.

Chris Roberts:
As for privacy concerns, Logos 5 includes new options that I think will help many with concerns. Under Settings they have the "Send Feedback" option with choices "All, Anonymous, and None". Don't want them getting any info on your usage? Just set that to none. Don't mind them having it so long as it's private? Set it anonymous.

If you think this addresses the privacy concerns I (and many others) have, then you've not read those threads. It's not about the privacy of usage statistics.

And, I'll ask again on this thread:

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 10:57 AM

Russ White:
For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

Apologies, but I do not understand your position or your assertion (I think there may be a typos). Are you suggesting that Logos is a business? If so, I imagine you would receive general agreement from both within and without the company.

Apologies if I have misunderstood you.

Posts 2241
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:00 AM

Russ White:

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

In your understanding, are "business" and "ministry" mutually exclusive domains?

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 2241
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:00 AM

Russ White:

For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

In your understanding, are "business" and "ministry" mutually exclusive domains?

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:01 AM

Russ White:
For those who disagree with my premise that Logos is a business, but rather a ministry, please back your disagreement with my assessment up in some way.

I actually agree with you there. Logos is not a ministry, it is a business. Their business helps my ministry and those in their business can see their work as a kind of ministry, but Logos itself is a business and operates as such, which makes its actions quite understandable.

Russ White:
Logos has clearly said they did not intend for PBB to be used for sharing books in the public domain which they also sell. This has been made clear many times.

They have talked about a possible upcoming store of sorts where people can sell or distribute pbb's that they create. They have said they don't intend this to be used to distribute books that compete with their own versions, so people will not be able to use the hypothetical Logos distribution method to compete with Logos. This is no surprise. And I'm not aware that Logos has ever said they would seek to restrict people from distributing their pbb's through other means.

Russ White:
Again, you're talking in terms of being able to use existing books. I'm arguing there's more to the investment than just the books.

So what else do you have in mind?

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:02 AM

David Thomas:
In your understanding, are "business" and "ministry" mutually exclusive domains?

No, but the general point is this:

We need to stop treating Logos, the company, with "kid gloves," just because we hold the mindset that they are a "Christian company," with our best interests at heart.

 

Posts 8655
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:10 AM

Russ White:

So your answer is --it doesn't matter what Logos does, so long as they don't disable your current software? They could release a new version of the software that only non-users could buy, and that would be fine, because they've not actually disabled your current software.

In other words, your answer is to mock.

I am very sorry. That is not at all my intention. Russ I have typed the same answers to the same questions so many times at this point that it is hard to see new nuances to a question.

Let me try my answer this way with a bit of an assumption. You purchased L4, which consists of a number of resource titles for which you paid, and an engine that drives them. True the resources and the engine require each other to be useful. So we view it all as one package.

As I understand it, L4 is not being deleted from Logos, that engine will continue, presumably for many years to run and read books and all that.

L5 coming along does not invalidate L4. L4 will continue to run and won't be disabled. This is the point I hoped to make, but failed at. And apparently was not your concern. In other words, I understand that you know L4 will continue to work.

Here is the disconnect for me though. L5 is a new product. I cannot see how issuing a new product that does not disable your prior investment expresses a total disregard for previous investment in terms of pricing. 

But every single upgrade in the packages is weighed against those former purchases, and nobody is buying a second license of any book they already own. Dan Pritchett explained the calculator at least somewhat. So, all of your former purchases are in fact being taken into consideration.

Help me understand. What would change this for you?

Russ White:
And, since you've entered the conversation with such wise and wonderful words, I take it that you object to my original contention --that Logos is not a ministry, but a business that should be called on its bad decisions, like any other business.
Not at all. As I stated above wise and wonderful do not describe my words as you know.  Of course Logos is a business. Of course bad business decisions should be spoken about. I have already said, for example, many times that naming the new package similarly to the old ones is a mistake. IOW I called them on a bad decision.

AND I support, nay, encourage your right to do so, even here, especially here.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:11 AM

Chris Roberts:
And I'm not aware that Logos has ever said they would seek to restrict people from distributing their pbb's through other means.

And they have clearly said they will not tolerate web sites that post PBBs of books they sell, nor will they tolerate posting links to PBBs of books they sell.

Chris Roberts:
So what else do you have in mind?

My point is that Logos seems to be losing sight of their customers at large, and your answer is, "give me dates, times, and specifics." I think the forums are full of dates, times, and specifics, if you want to look. There are tons of questions, suggestions, and thoughts here.

I would start with a little respect for those who have spent tens of thousands in previous years, rather than forcing them to wait for an indeterminate amount of time for the possibility of an upgrade path that hasn't been defined yet. But that's just one example --respecting the privacy of users, showing some concern for the initial cost of the product, and allowing an ecosystem to exist (rather than trying sop every last cent out of every possible market), or not being so gruff when someone calls to ask about upgrading, or not trying to pressure them into upgrading (both of which I have experienced, and others have reported).

But you're not going to understand if you want to reduce everything to a specific instance, because if you focus on the leaves, you can always lose sight of the forest.

Posts 2241
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:17 AM

I choose to allow Col 4:6 to shape the way I speak with others, whether it be an individual or a representative of a "business"

I don't know what leads you to believe Logos wants to be handled with kid gloves. At their expense they host these forums and ask employees to peruse these posts to listen for ways to improve their products. Bob has admitted mistakes and ( in my opinion) goes above and beyond in attempts to correct service failures.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:17 AM

TCBlack:
But every single upgrade in the packages is weighed against those former purchases, and nobody is buying a second license of any book they already own. Dan Pritchett explained the calculator at least somewhat. So, all of your former purchases are in fact being taken into consideration.

I suppose one question I would have for Logos is --at what point of value? I'm glad they're counting my previous purchases in some way, but are they simply removing the cost from the package, or are they doing some fancy math at some point? I find the upgrades extremely expensive, myself --I can't imagine how a pastor or a seminary student who paid for Logos a year ago could even possibly come close to affording what Logos wants to charge.

So, sorry, but I don't see a lot of respect for current customers in the process as they've laid it out. If this were the first time, I'd just shrug my shoulders and move on ---but this seems to be becoming a pattern of late, IMHO.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:23 AM

David Thomas:
I don't know what leads you to believe Logos wants to be handled with kid gloves.

I don't think Logos appeals to this --but I see a lot of users here on the forums who do.

David Thomas:
At their expense they host these forums and ask employees to peruse these posts to listen for ways to improve their products.

I'll be bold and say these forums don't cost Logos a penny, in the long run --so this is one of those instances where I think people attribute a bit of a "halo" to Logos that shouldn't be there. I think you might fail to understand how much money Logos actually makes off these forums, and how much they save in terms of reduced support costs. I've done customer support before, and I can tell you that these types of forums easily pay for themselves.

 

Posts 8655
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:27 AM

Russ White:
I suppose one question I would have for Logos is --at what point of value?
Certainly a question I cannot answer.

I do intend, later, to load up the offers page for me on a spreadsheet of sorts and try to figure out precisely this as it relates to me. for instance UpgradePrice/TotalNewBooks=PerBookCost or something like that. One user did report this morning that their upgrade came to about $5 per book. Of course some books are worth $0 and others are worth $50.

Russ White:

I find the upgrades extremely expensive, myself --I can't imagine how a pastor or a seminary student who paid for Logos a year ago could even possibly come close to affording what Logos wants to charge.

So, sorry, but I don't see a lot of respect for current customers in the process as they've laid it out.

I'm pondering this one "out loud" here. I agree that when I purchase my upgrade it is going to hurt the old wallet.  I wonder if the issue and related solution is size of the upgrades. 

I keep running into related issues (not the same one you're raising here, I think) that indicates the following thought flow:

  • I own (Scholars Gold JG) and sliding over to Gold L5 is cost prohibitive. 
  • But going from my current package to "Bronz L5" feels like a step down because the name has changed.
  • Some appear to not even want the books there, just the name "Gold" to continue, thus they feel cheated.

Those three thought points are my main reason why I do not like the naming scheme. I have no idea what I would have suggested otherwise, but there you have it.

I think I'm rambling so I'll stop now.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 8655
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2012 11:28 AM

Russ White:
I think you might fail to understand how much money Logos actually makes off these forums, and how much they save in terms of reduced support costs. I've done customer support before, and I can tell you that these types of forums easily pay for themselves.

I resemble that remark.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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