Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

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Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 11:09 AM

Jeff O'Neal:
Second, you illustrate my point while refusing to see it.  If I want to be able to use all of the Logos 5 functionality, I cannot just buy the bare-bones resources necessary to do this.  I must also buy other resources that I may or may not want.  Back to the analogy of the car, windshield wipers, fairings, spoiler, etc.. ("NEW RESOURCES") may save me thousands over buying them separately.  But it is a high price to pay if I only want windshield wipers.  And note that "windshield wipers" are analogous to Logos 5 features beyond the minimal crossgrade whereas the minimal crossgrade is analogous to the car.  Likewise, if  I am shown all the neat things Logos 5 can do then told I will have to buy a package that is a very good deal but only a few of the resources in the package are actually necessary to use the features on Logos 5, that has all the hallmarks of the crafty steward in Luke 16.  And my impression in a long talk with a Logos rep is that Logos unabashedly responds that they are first a for-profit company and places that as a priority above conformity to altruistic ideals like Biblical principles.

Hi Jeff,

Firstly, welcome to the forums!

Emile has tried to outline the options available to you. I am unclear from your response as to whether there has been some misunderstanding with regards to Logos' position.

The first thing, importantly, is that you are under no obligations to upgrade. L4 continues to be supported. Indeed, I understand that further service releases are planned. You are, therefore, free to continue to use and enjoy L4 indefinitely.

Logos have announced that they will release the free engine which will give you access to the L5 platform, but not the new functionality.

If, however, you want to access the new functionality, your options are twofold. You can upgrade your package now. I accept, however, that the cost of doing so may prove unacceptable to you. For clarity, however, you are paying for the new resources (the packages have been significantly redesigned).

Additionally, Logos have announced that they will be releasing a minimal upgrade which will enable you to access much of the new functionality within L5, but at a lower cost.

Finally, and I do not intend to be confrontational, but I do question the sentiment expressed below, particularly given that you are, yourself, a business man,

Jeff O'Neal:
they are first a for-profit company and places that as a priority above conformity to altruistic ideals like Biblical principles

This implies that you believe that Logos' pursuit of profit is somehow inconsistent with 'biblical principles'. I presume, given your own business background and Logos' generosity in making the L5 engine available at a number of price points (including for no cost whatsoever) you will, no doubt, wish to clarify.

Blessings in your decision.

 

 

Posts 1825
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 11:34 AM

lifeofworship:
What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58983.aspx

 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 11:48 AM

Hi again, Jeff!

Thanks for your response. I'll try (!) to only make a few comments as it is late here, but just a couple of clarifications if I may.

You misunderstand me if you think that I am not allowing that others may see things differently. I have indicated that I am genuinely trying to understand other folks perspective on this, and despite your comments, those desires have been sincere. I have heard what people have said, but frankly, I simply disagree. Is that okay if I disagree with you? It's okay that you disagree with me. We all have different perspectives, and contrary to what you are claiming, I very much allow for that... and have even been encouraging discussion on that.

I offered my different perspective when some posters made certain claims. Surely I am entitled to do so as much as you or they are entitled to share theirs?

EDIT- That last line might not have been clear. The poster to whom I was responding shared their viewpoint. I responded in my post that I didn't understand their viewpoint, and offered my perspective. The poster hadn't responded to my post. But you are claiming that I'm "only considering my own frame of reference and not allowing that others may see things differently" Is that a fair statement? I wrote to ask for a clarification on his perspective, to understand that perspective, and shared my own. Where did I exhibit a refusal to listen or consider his response? He hadn't even responded yet! And yet you have been accusing me in your posts of being closed to listening to other's perspectives. That doesn't seem like a fair statement or judgment to make. That's why I wrote what I had in the original before the edit END OF EDIT

For what its worth, I have stated in my posts many times that I agree with the fact that there has been a lot of confusion. I agree that communication is a challenge for Logos at times and exacerbates things.

I can certainly sympathize the time challenges that you face (and that others do as well). Believe it or not, I have the same. I will say that personally, because I have a significant investment in this product, I will take that extra time to research thoroughly a purchase that I am going to make. If I don't understand something, yes, I'm going to go to the forums, read the posts of Bob and other Logos employees, listen to those who have beta-tested, study the website, etc. You're right, it's a lot of time and effort. Maybe more than you (or I) can afford. That also has to be considered. But I'm, not just going to listen to a marketing speil without trying to understand thoroughly what I'm buying or investing in. I'm sure you do this yourself in your own business. It's bothered me though that if people aren't willing to do this (which is understandable), they jump to the assertion that the company is acting nefariously or with evil intent. And if they had simply taken the time that they spent ranting and instead used it to research, their questions and issues would often have been resolved through the knowledge they gained (please understand that I am NOT saying that is what is going on with you, Jeff... I mean that.  I'm just commenting on what I've been seeing a lot of this past week).

Just a side note, the statement about being second class or being devalued was part of the original discussion I was having to which you commented, hence its appearance in my response to you. It was not directed specifically at you or your argument, but was a general statement about the circumstances. And of course, I took your $1,500 only as a rhetorical example, as you intended.

Your last paragraph though, is why It SEEMS like you still don't understand. Can I explain why it seems so?

Jeff O'Neal:

 If I want to be able to use all of the Logos 5 functionality, I cannot just buy the bare-bones resources necessary to do this.  I must also buy other resources that I may or may not want.  

This is what I was referring to that simply isn't true. I understand that you just want the minimal resources to use all of the functionality of L5. I'm in the same position... absolutely. There's a bunch of stuff I want to buy in terms of resources from Logos, and none of that is in the packages being offered. I don't want to waste my cash on the stuff I don't want... I have OTHER things I want to purchase if I had such money. I just want the basic engine, features and datasets that will allow me to enjoy L5 to its complete ability.

But see, that's what I don't understand about what you are trying to say. That is exactly what they are offering. The engine is totally free. The datasets are part of the minimal crossgrade, which has a low minimal price (your "bare-bones" example). SOME people actually won't want ALL of the datasets, so Logos is even offering more than one crossgrade so that you only have to buy the datasets that you really want or will use. And, as part of the minimal crossgrade, they are including the small handful of resources (3? 4? 5?) that you will need to take 100% full advantage of L5 in all of its glory.

So yes, Jeff, you CAN "buy the bare bones resources necessary to do this" (i.e, use all of the Logos 5 functionality). No, it isn't true that you "must also buy other resources that I may or may not want". So, sincerely, can you appreciate why I'm not understanding what you are trying to say? It's not that I'm trying to be blind to your perspective. It SEEMS like you are saying things that are not accurate, and I've been trying to explain that. Forget the car analogy, if that is confusing the issue. Can you explain to me how you are NOT being offered exactly what you are saying you want?

And Jeff, please understand... none of that has really been my point. From what you have said, okay, maybe you haven't been reading many of the forum posts... I don't know. But if you DO, one of the things that might strike you as it has me very strongly ISN'T that people have different views or perspectives, or complaints or disagreements. All of that is PERFECTLY OKAY. UNDERSTANDABLE. EXPECTED. I EVEN SYMPATHIZE WITH A LOT OF IT. What HAS been very troublesome is that many, many, many of the posts have been very disparaging, sarcastic, angry, full of claims about people's motives, attributing the worst of intentions, downright slanderous, and full of demonstrable untruths or speculative mean-spirited gossip. If you want to take the time, as I have suggested in another post, to read all of the posts prayerfully, and ask Christ after each one whether He is pleased to hear us as Christians speaking that way to one another, I think you will agree. I don't KNOW that you will, but I THINK that you might. And you might agree with me that it has been very unfair and hasn't been honoring to Christ or our brothers and sisters at Logos.

ALL I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO ASK FOR is that people conduct their discussions and share their disagreements without all of the judgmental and condemnatory emotion, the slander, and the untruths, and the constant ascribing of ill intention or motives or lack of sincerity to anyone. I haven't in our exchange of posts questioned your sincerity, even though we have some disagreements and don't understand one another. I have genuinely been trying to understand your position, and I have just explained in this post why I'm having trouble doing so. It ISN'T a lack of desire.

Okay.. sorry... not only a few comments as I thought. I'm not very good at that, I guess. But I want to try to clear up any misunderstandings, so I tend to write alot.

Posts 1825
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 11:53 AM

EmileB:
So yes, Jeff, you CAN "buy the bare bones resources necessary to do this" (i.e, use all of the Logos 5 functionality).

Perhaps the misunderstanding is over the word "CAN". To be more correct, is should be "WILL SOON BE ABLE TO"

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 12:10 PM

Yes, David, sorry. I'd been making that point in my other posts. Phil is indicating in a week or two from now, most likely. I was speaking in a general sense here, but for clarification, yes, specifically, in a couple of weeks. Thanks for the clarification!

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 2:36 PM

Brother Mark:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Suggest .......  Thankful for.......

I'm grateful and thankful for you KS4J.... I can't count how many times I've read a post from you that gently encouraged a frustrated user and reminded us all (perhaps me most of all) how very thankful we should be for grace in general and Logos software specifically.  AND for users like you.  Bless you my brother!

 

--Bro. Mark

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about using Logos Bible Software; have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.

Thankful for phone conversation with Logos Sales to discuss Logos 5 upgrade.

Thankful for upcoming minimum crossgrade.  Personally wonder about an crossgrade option for Starter base package ?  Noticed Starter includes a number of media resources.  Likewise like idea of crossgrade from Logos 5 Bronze and Silver too to add new Logos 5 datasets (e.g. Bible Sense Lexicon).

 +1 Yes Thanks for many loving and gracious replies in this thread.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 24
Jeff O'Neal | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 3:28 PM

Thanks, Emile.  

It is defeating our intent to encourage charity with others when we do not convey this admonition with charity.  I hope you and Logos will forgive my failures in this regard.  And I appreciate your intent in this.

Now let me try to make it brief.  The crux of the issue is that for full functionality (all features) of Logos 5, the basic engine is required along with certain resources.  But as it was presented to me, the engine is free but the resources have to be purchased -- fair enough.  What I object to is that I cannot simply purchase the resources necessary to enjoy the full functionality of Logos 5 for some reasonably low price the way I upgraded from 3 to 4 and/or Libronix to 3 (was it??). And if I remember correctly, Logos to Libronix was similar.

This is a new tactic to bundle the essential resources into a bundle with nonessential resources and requiring this larger purchase to be able to access all the new features.  

Posts 24
Jeff O'Neal | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 3:34 PM

Thank you, David.  That was never clearly presented to me.  Until now, I have only seen that it is an either-or.  For future reference, putting that message out front instead of making it seem like the full upgrade to another package was necessary would have made all the difference for me.

Thanks again!

Posts 24
Jeff O'Neal | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 3:46 PM

Here is a case in point about the mixed signals:

From Andy Evans:

Additionally, Logos have announced that they will be releasing a minimal upgrade which will enable you to access much of the new functionality within L5, but at a lower cost.

Now from David Thomas:

David Thomas:

EmileB:
So yes, Jeff, you CAN "buy the bare bones resources necessary to do this" (i.e, use all of the Logos 5 functionality).

Perhaps the misunderstanding is over the word "CAN". To be more correct, is should be "WILL SOON BE ABLE TO"

 

"much" vs "all"

I know -- it doesn't take a very long drive to drive me crazy. :)

 

 

 

Posts 119
ManilaDave | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:38 PM

Thanks, EmileB. I appreciate your post. My criticism was public so my repentance needed to be public also. I had to ask myself a couple of questions, the first of which is why I was angry. I honestly didn't even know that a Logos 5 launch was imminent. My life is simply too busy to keep up. I use the tool every day but don't have time to keep up on the news. The reality is I loved Libronix. I still have it on my netbook which can't handle Logos 4 very well. But when travelling light the netbook and Libronix are more than satisfactory.  If there never was a Logos 4 I'd be totally satisfied with Libronix. If there were no Logos 5 I'd still be delighted with Logos 4 five years from now - even 10 years from now. It's a wonderful tool that lets me do the exegesis of a biblical text in a little more time  than it took me to just assemble the resources when I was in college.  My second question had to do with who I was really angry at? The answer to that was that I was angry with myself and redirected that at Logos for no good reason. Two reasons. I moved to the Philippines in 2008 as missionary / development worker. (My wife is Filipino). Six months later circumstances beyond our control led to us returning home. We had moved our whole life over, intending to stay for life. It cost us all our savings. We continue to rent a tiny apartment in Manila and visit there virtually every year. It stands as testimony to our belief that our call to the Philippines is still valid. Four and a half years later the dream of returning to the Philippines as a full-time missionary  is no nearer to being fulfilled. Investing in Logos and aggressively building my library was in preparation for that. Now three years later, (since Logos 4), I'm questioning the wisdom of the investment - not from the perspective of the quality of the product but whether the use I can make of it if I cannot return to full-time ministry will justify the investment. I'm questioning also whether our work in the Philippines, (4 years cumulatively), is over and I have my guidance wrong.  If my role is going to be here in Ireland full-time ministry is out of the question. Our indigenous evangelical churches are mostly too small to be able to support a pastor - so tent-making is the order of the day.  As a tent-maker I'll never have the time to use half my library. This is a significant tension and stress point in my life In this tension filled context along comes a launch of Logos 5 which I was not even expecting. I looked at the cost of upgrading Platinum to Platinum and made a lot of assumptions without reading the information. I thought my only option was Platinum to Platinum or higher. I thought that if this process continued into Logos 6 and 7, etc., I'd eventually end up with an unsupported product unless I kept upgrading. I read greedy motives into Bob's actions. It didn't matter that the additional  commentaries were at great prices and were on my wish list. It was the uninformed belief based on false assumptions that I was being squeezed. Why was that necessary?, I reasoned.  I would have continued to buy books. I prefer to buy a book than a shirt. So why was I being forced  to buy more just to keep my software current? All of this in a context in which I had  been asking myself questions for some time about whether my investing in resources had crossed the line into greedy acquisitiveness or was really investing in tools for ministry and study. So I lashed out at someone else! I was a total jackass. I didn't take the time to properly inform myself and drew the wrong conclusions. Sorry, Bob and Logos.  In the greater scheme of things would waiting a month or two for the upgrade negatively impact our ministries or personal study? Most of us were probably so delighted with Logos 4 than we were recommending it to others right up to the launch of Logos 5. We have a great product that is going to get better. Logos have admitted they made mistakes and apologized. None of us would be interested in Logos at all if we were not recipients of forgiveness and, at a minimum, a second chance. Logos may be a business but that's not a separate sphere from Christian faith.  Neither is being a customer separated from Christian faith. Being in business and being a customer of a business are two arenas in which we continue to live Christianly. May we all find the grace to work though in our lives how to do that well. Blessings. 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 6:07 PM

Jeff O'Neal:
WinXP which is on all my computers

Then, you cannot update to Logos 5. Not being a Windows user, it is my understanding that L5 is based on .net 4.5 which is incompatible with XP.

Posts 24
Jeff O'Neal | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 6:49 PM

Jack Caviness:

Jeff O'Neal:
WinXP which is on all my computers

Then, you cannot update to Logos 5. Not being a Windows user, it is my understanding that L5 is based on .net 4.5 which is incompatible with XP.

Yep, my point exactly.  I have backwards compatibility issues with my engineering software upgrading from WinXP and I have this issue with Logos 5.  My new copies of Win8 are sitting by the computer.  It is now just finding the hours necessary to stand down and upgrade everything that has to be upgraded, both software and peripherals.

This is rapid-fire moving forward and modernizing to be able to use the new features Logos is providing.  These exiting new changes are just causing some growing pains for a handful of us.  I understand that for most people, the upgrade is going swimmingly and there is a lot of excitement about the new features.

Thanks, Logos, for all your efforts and for putting up with crotchety old characters like me!

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 9:40 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally wonder about an crossgrade option for Starter base package ?  Noticed Starter includes a number of media resources.  Likewise like idea of crossgrade from Logos 5 Bronze and Silver too to add new Logos 5 datasets (e.g. Bible Sense Lexicon).

That's already been promised:

Phil Gons:

Graeme Adams:
So, just to confirm we will have a cross-grade in a week?

No official commitment yet, but we're working on it now and could have it live on the website in the next week or two. Again, that's not a guarantee. That represents our current plans. We'll provide a concrete date as soon as it's available.

Graeme Adams:
Any indiction of costs for a 'full feature' cross-grade? 

We're still working on the exact contents that the MCs will include. The smaller one, which might lack one or two features, will probably be between $75 and $150. The larger one, with all the features plus a few core resources, will probably be between $150 and $300, depending on which version of the software you're moving from. For Logos 4 users, it'll be on the lower end of those ranges. For Logos 3, it'll be a bit more expensive. For Logos 2 users, even more.

For Logos 5 Starter to Silver users who are just looking to pick up the missing features, it'll be significantly lower. Dynamic pricing will apply to both products, so the ownership discount will be applied as appropriate.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 8:56 AM

Manila Dave...

Oh my brother! If only you knew how well I can relate! We have been walking very parallel paths, it seems. I finally made it back to the field after five years of that kind of survival tent making. All I can say at this point is that if the Lord wants you there, it will indeed come about... in its proper time. That's very simplistic, I know. Would be very glad indeed to share further with you privately, or to be a sounding board for you, as one who has gone through a similar experience. Feel free to email me at alfiericiriaco AT gmail (you know the rest).

And your post was both very humble and mature... thank you for your transparency!

With my sympathies and best wishes,

Emile

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:36 AM

I just edited the [collapse]original message to add:

NEW, Friday, 11/9: We've been looking at the interdependence of some of the data sets, and the fact that even for original purchasers, some of the new data sets / resources are only in Gold and above. So we're planning to split the crossgrade into two levels; the smaller one will likely be under $100, and appropriate for someone with CHL, BSL, Leader's, or Scholar's, and the larger one with have the language-related resources and data sets, too, and be somewhere over $100, depending on what you already own. It will be for people who had Scholar's, Silver, Gold, etc.


[/collapse]
Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:58 AM

Jeff,

Windows 8 Professional includes an emulator for windows 2000- winXP. I am using it in Win7 to run Libronix and the New Interpreters Dictionary and Bible Commentary (in Folios) and it works great!

Posts 3
Brent James | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:15 AM

Bob,

Thanks so much for making this option available.  I will definitely be upgrading when it becomes possible.  I definitely want to support the work and ministry of Logos.

Posts 42
Naveen Balakrishnan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 11:47 AM

Is there a possibility to create a product with just the features (including the data sets) without the additional core sets (why are they core?) for the Logos 5 engine who are looking patiently to upgrade when it becomes available?  Looking at this from a pricing standpoint.  If I had the resources to upgrade I would, but now I am contemplating even some of the Pre-pubs I have on order.

 

In Christ Alone

Naveen

Psalm 119:133

Posts 442
Tim Engwer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 1:34 PM

I have already bought the Silver edition and love the new content - Good Job!  If I understand you correctly the Silver edition will be reconfigured to include all the new features some of which I do not have since I upgraded a week ago.  What does this mean for someone like myself?  Will I be able to get the additional features?

Posts 10126
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 1:55 PM

Tim ... Bob wasn't really clear on his new addition as to whether it was L4 Silver or L5 Silver. But I assume for you to complete the feature set you want, you're going to need to cough up some more dough on the high end of his range.

But you're lucky. I don't have any of those packages he listed. So I'll probably have to get the L5 engine.


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