Problems with Grammatical Relationships in L5 BWS

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Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:48 PM

Here are a couple of problems with Grammatical Relationship section in L5 BWS.

1. doxa is not the subject of periballo in either of these examples. Solomon is the subject in both Mt 6:29 and Lk 12:27.

2. The headings for "Used Adjectivally" and "Modified by Adjective . . ." sections are really confusing.

It is clear in the first few sections that doxa is the "Subject of . . ." the results of that section and the "Object of . . ." the results of that section. 

But the sections "Used Adjectivally" and "Modified by Adjective . . ." seem to be the wrong headings for those sections.

kurios is used adjectivally to modify doxa.

But based on previous sections, one would expect a list where doxa is used adjectivally to modify whatever words are listed.

"kurios" is the noun that is modified by the adjective "doxa". 

But based on previous sections, one would expect a list where doxa is modified by the adjectives that are listed in following results.

This has been a problem since 2009, see my original thread on it here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6287.aspx.

Seems like it would be a very simple fix to clarify or exchange the headings in these sections.

Posts 95
Rick Brannan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 8:07 PM

Hi Russ.

I'll look deeper into this on Monday. Thanks for the report.

 

Rick Brannan | Twitter: @RickBrannan
my books in print

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:40 PM

Hi Russ.

Can you go to the "About Logos Bible Software" dialog ((?), About Logos Bible Software). I'm specifically interested in which data sets you've got. Your Greek will be fueled either by DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL or by DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL-CSGNT. The latter will be preferred if it is there. The first is based on the OpenText.org syntax, the second is based on Cascadia.

I'm using the Cascadia-based version, and am not seeing the results you're seeing. 

(a future item is to allow selection/preference if someone has both, but at present that is not supported)

 

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:57 PM

Hi Russ.

I'm looking further into this on the assumption that you're using the OpenText.org-based data that supplies the grammatical relationships information.

Russ Quinn:
1. doxa is not the subject of periballo in either of these examples. Solomon is the subject in both Mt 6:29 and Lk 12:27.

I agree with you. However, the OpenText.org analysis has the prepositional phrase "in all his glory" modifying "Solomon", thus it ends up as part of the subject. This is an annotation error, I'd guess; but the data itself is properly represented. Here's the graph of Lk 12.27. 

Mt 6.29 does the same thing, including the prepositional phrase as modifying the subject (functioning adjectivally) instead of modifying the verb (functioning adverbially)

I will send a report on these, but I'll be honest — I haven't had any response from the OpenText.org folks for years. So I have little hope that this (or other possible corrections) will be reviewed and fixed if so deemed necessary.

On the "used adjectivally"; I'll wait to see what version of the data you're running. I know there was an issue, and I think it was corrected. At least, I remember it being corrected. But I could be mis-remembering. I'd like to see the version of data you're running so I can know that we're comparing apples to apples.

Thanks again.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

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LogosEmployee

Rick Brannan (Logos):

Your Greek will be fueled either by DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL or by DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL-CSGNT. The latter will be preferred if it is there. The first is based on the OpenText.org syntax, the second is based on Cascadia.

I'm using the Cascadia-based version, and am not seeing the results you're seeing. 

(a future item is to allow selection/preference if someone has both, but at present that is not supported)

Actually, you should be able to select the desired data set using the Settings option on the Grammatical Relationships section header (move your mouse over the section header to make the Settings option appear). The Example Uses section also has the same option available.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 4:00 PM

Rick Brannan (Logos):

Your Greek will be fueled either by DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL or by DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL-CSGNT. The latter will be preferred if it is there. The first is based on the OpenText.org syntax, the second is based on Cascadia.

How does one get the CSGNT data set? Grammar isn't listed as a Data Set on the Upgrade chart.

OTOH  the Grammatical Relationships + Example Uses sections are available to Bronze and above.

Andrew Batishko (Logos):
Actually, you should be able to select the desired data set using the Settings option on the Grammatical Relationships section header (move your mouse over the section header to make the Settings option appear). The Example Uses section also has the same option available.

They would appear to be features of 5.0a ...

Dave
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Dave Hooton:

They would appear to be features of 5.0a ...

That is entirely possible. In that case, change my post to an enthusiastic comment explaining that this exciting feature will be available in 5.0a!!!

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 9:59 PM

Hi Dave.

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Dave Hooton:

How does one get the CSGNT data set? Grammar isn't listed as a Data Set on the Upgrade chart.

OTOH  the Grammatical Relationships + Example Uses sections are available to Bronze and above.

Logos 5 should be delivering the CSGNT data set instead of the OpenText.org-based data set; at least that's my understanding. So I'd guess it should be in each L5 Bronze and above. This is part of the Grammatical Relationships feature and would be wrapped up in that label on the feature list, I'd guess. Then again, I'm on the tech side of the fence, so don't know exactly. I can try to find out, though.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 1:31 PM

Rick,

Looks like I've got the same databases:

Why would I get different results?

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 1:40 PM

Russ Quinn:
Why would I get different results?

That's a really good question. I'll have to check with some folks and try to get it figured out.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 6
Bryan Glass | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 1:59 PM

I'm also getting the same results and using the same databases. Is there a data/results integrity issue?

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:37 AM

Bryan Glass:

I'm also getting the same results and using the same databases. Is there a data/results integrity issue?

Note that the 5.0a beta 1 supports switching of Grammatical Relationships databases, which should end up addressing the issue in this thread.

(For the beta, see thread here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/59151.aspx, before installing please review the standard beta warnings)

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 6
Bryan Glass | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:00 AM

OK. I have upgraded to the Beta.  how do I go about changing gramatical databases?

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:06 AM

Bryan Glass:

OK. I have upgraded to the Beta.  how do I go about changing gramatical databases?

If you hover the "Grammatical Relationships" section head in an active BWS, you should see 'Settings'. You can change it in the settings.

There is an issue I will report as I don't know if this is by design or not. That is, when GR are populated, it uses the 'Default' GR resource, but it never tells you what the default is. And it reverts to default with each new BWS instance. That is, it doesn't (seem to) remember what was selected, and if it does it does not indicate which of the two options is actually 'default'.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 11:45 AM

I installed the beta version and selected Cascadia in settings.

This fixed the problem with saying that doxa is the subject of periballw Matthew 6:29 and Luke 12:27.

However, the "Used Adjectivally" and "Modified by Adjective" sections are still wrong.

It looks like those headings just need to be swapped.

It is a consistent error on every BWS I have run.

Posts 777
Brisa Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 8 2013 11:56 AM

Rick Brannan (Logos):
That is, when GR are populated, it uses the 'Default' GR resource, but it never tells you what the default is. And it reverts to default with each new BWS instance. That is, it doesn't (seem to) remember what was selected, and if it does it does not indicate which of the two options is actually 'default'.

These issues were fixed in 5.0a. Both the Example Uses and Grammatical Relationships sections show you the title of the resource being used once results are generated, even if "Default Grammatical Relationships" is selected. Also, if the guide is saved the selected resource is remembered. 

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 8:23 AM

Brisa Calderon:

Rick Brannan (Logos):
That is, when GR are populated, it uses the 'Default' GR resource, but it never tells you what the default is. And it reverts to default with each new BWS instance. That is, it doesn't (seem to) remember what was selected, and if it does it does not indicate which of the two options is actually 'default'.

These issues were fixed in 5.0a. Both the Example Uses and Grammatical Relationships sections show you the title of the resource being used once results are generated, even if "Default Grammatical Relationships" is selected. Also, if the guide is saved the selected resource is remembered. 

I'm glad this has been addressed but I have a question. I was looking at doing a comparison between the two GR resources on a single word with two open Bible Study panes.  But it wont allow two word study panels to be open with the same Greek word. If I set one pane up with δόξα and open up another word study pane and paste in δόξα, when I hit return to execute the search the first pane automatically closes leaving only the second pane. Is this a bug or a functionality issue or both?

 

Thanks

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 11:29 PM

Anthony H:
Is this a bug or a functionality issue or both?

It's by design but several users have asked that it be changed to allow a comparison of a word across different corpuses (or is it corpi?)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 10 2013 9:36 AM

MJ. Smith:

Anthony H:
Is this a bug or a functionality issue or both?

It's by design but several users have asked that it be changed to allow a comparison of a word across different corpuses (or is it corpi?)

That would be nice.    Yes

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 16 2013 10:59 AM

Brisa Davis:
These issues were fixed in 5.0a.

Not quite: BUG 5.1 RC1: BWS ignores the settings in the template.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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