Need Hebrew help in understanding something that...

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Posts 58
Gloria | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 6 2012 9:46 AM

Can anyone help me understand something.

 

A group of us is studying Exodus.  We use the NASB.  In Chapter 13:18 in the NASB it says, the “sons of Israel went up in ‘martial’ array.”  In the interlinear, the strongs # for the word “martial” is #2567, and the dictionary I use tells me it means “to take one-fifth.

 

In the KJV, the word “martial” is translated as “harnassed.”  If I r-click it, the strongs # given is #2571 and it means “armed.”  That surprises me since I know their neighbors in Egypt gave them silver and gold, but weapons?  Also, the next strong’s number in line, #2572 has something to do with the number 5, and yet all 3 of these words are very similar in Hebrew.  Can someone help me understand what this means and what does someone do when they encounter something like and work it through?

 

It’s not a doctrinal issue, but this little old housewife, wants to know.  Some day it may be a bigger issue, and I want to know what some of you scholars do with things like this.

 

Thank you very much.

Gloria

Posts 8602
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 9:58 AM

Words take their meaning from context. The idea here being "in groups" The history of the account, it's place in the story, it's overall intent flavors the final meaning.

If I write the sentence "Hal is running" you'll picture a fellow named Hal making loops around a running track. But if you know that Hal is the name of the computer in "2001 a space Odyssey" than you now picture a computer that is functioning properly. Context has changed the meaning of the sentence.

A simple rule: "Context is king" will help with dilemmas like this be they big or small.

The Hebrew root here "HMS". Left alone it is an ordinal number: "5".  Taking it's actual form together with all the contextual clues it means much more than five. Since they understand this, the translators are trying to indicate that they were grouped, and they were grouped in a specific manner that historically could be consistent with the way that armies would march. The various translations all convey some aspect of this very organized (not chaotic) march out of Egypt.

EDIT: Slight edit for clarification

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Posts 450
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:02 AM

Gloria:

In the NASB, the word for 'Maritial' is actually Strongs #H2571 - the definition of which is 'battle array.' The implication here is that Israel was leaving out marching in a formation like that of soldiers. It's my understanding, and someone can correct me, but this is not unsimilar to what will evetually happen after the Tabernacle - each tribe being assigned a place in marching order.

Posts 1899
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:09 AM

I  admire your diligence to figure this out!!

I don't know where you got the idea that the KJV links to #2571. As you can see below both my NASB, ESV and KJV all link to #2567.

This is the entry for that word (hamas) in the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis

 

OT 1. Five is a small “round” number (Lev 26:8; Isa 30:17), perhaps related to the use of five fingers for a “handful,” or possibly because of its status as half of the basic counting unit of ten. Five, a multiple of five, or one fifth, is frequently found as a reward (Gen 43:34; 45:22), a compensation (Deut 22:29), or a penalty (Exod 22:1; Lev 5:16; 22:14). As half the standard decimal measure, it is found in the description of the tabernacle and temple (five in Exod 26; 36; fifty in Gen 6:15; five hundred in Ezek 42:15–20). Twenty-five is prominent in Ezekiel’s temple measurements (the number of steps 7+8+10, 40:22, 31, 37; the 25,000 square cubit holy area, 48:20). This may reflect the dating of the vision, the twenty-fifth year of Exile (40:1), possibly regarded as the middle point of a Jubilee period of exile (W. Zimmerli, Ezekiel, Hermeneia, 1983, 2:344).

2. Fifty as half of a hundred occurs in accounts of rectangular buildings (Exod 27:13; 1 Kgs 7:2; Ezek 42:2) and in places where a hundred has to be divided into two (1 Kgs 18:4). Fifty is the number of an intermediate-sized group of people, with its own leader (2 Kgs 1:13; 2:7; Isa 3:3). Priests are not able to minister after the age of fifty, which marks the onset of failing strength and intellect (Num 4:3).

 

P-B As in the OT, the QL finds fifty a significant age (1QM 7) and an intermediate size of group (1Q28a 1:14; 2:1).

 

NT In the NT five is a small round number (Matt 14:17; 25:2) or a larger round number (50 and 500, Luke 7:41; 5000, Matt 16:9; 50,000, Acts 19:19).

See Numbers

See Numbering, counting

BIBLIOGRAPHY

NIDNTT 2:689–90; Jastrow 1:480.

Philip P. Jenson

, vol. 2, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, ed. Willem VanGemeren (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1997), 191.

I think the idea is "chosen, set apart, and organized" for a particular use.

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Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 11:59 AM

David Thomas:
I don't know where you got the idea that the KJV links to #2571. As you can see below both my NASB, ESV and KJV all link to #2567.

Hello, David. The Strong's numbers in the Reverse Interlinears have been significantly improved for Logos 5 (though I think the plan is to release those updates to Logos 4 customers as well in the not-too-distant future - last I heard). In this case, HALOT treats 2571 and 2567 as the same verb, while Strong's analysis splits out the one piel form (in Gen 41:34) as 2567 while the 4 qal stem instances should be tagged as 2571 - and they are in the latest Reverse Interlinears.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 12:37 PM

Gloria:

 

A group of us is studying Exodus.  We use the NASB.  In Chapter 13:18 in the NASB it says, the “sons of Israel went up in ‘martial’ array.”  In the interlinear, the strongs # for the word “martial” is #2567, and the dictionary I use tells me it means “to take one-fifth.

 

The Hebrew word here is חָמֻשִׁים which comes from the word חַמֵשׁ which is the number "five."  In the plural form which appears here it signifies "fifty."  According to HALOT it refers to groups of fifty.  It would seem therefore to signify "companies" or groups of military units.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 58
Gloria | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:31 PM

 

I hope it's clear enough for you to see David, but the KJV I use does link me to 2571.  Am I doing something wrong here?

Posts 58
Gloria | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:34 PM

I agree TC. (and great example w/ Hal.  I use the "word" trunk when trying to get the women in my study to understand context.  My surprise was when I looked at the word in the KJV using the word harnassed, it had a whole different strongs number.  Im still looking though.  But that was a great concise, clear way to say it.

Posts 58
Gloria | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:35 PM

Okay, now in English....

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:48 PM

Gloria:

Okay, now in English....

 

It helps to quote a portion of the post to which you reply so that we know what you are replying to.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1899
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:52 PM

Gloria:
Am I doing something wrong here?

Gloria, it appears you are NOT doing anything wrong. According to Vincent's comment (about 3 post above your last one) there are a couple of different databases for Strong's numbers.

I rarely use Strong's numbers because of the resources that are in my library, but it is clear that we have different purposes for the way we each use Logos so I am NOT suggesting that you start doing it my way.

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Posts 58
Gloria | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:02 PM

Vincent Setterholm:

David Thomas:
I don't know where you got the idea that the KJV links to #2571. As you can see below both my NASB, ESV and KJV all link to #2567.

Hello, David. The Strong's numbers in the Reverse Interlinears have been significantly improved for Logos 5 (though I think the plan is to release those updates to Logos 4 customers as well in the not-too-distant future - last I heard). In this case, HALOT treats 2571 and 2567 as the same verb, while Strong's analysis splits out the one piel form (in Gen 41:34) as 2567 while the 4 qal stem instances should be tagged as 2571 - and they are in the latest Reverse Interlinears.

Okay, now in English.

 

Posts 58
Gloria | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:03 PM

David Thomas:

Gloria:
Am I doing something wrong here?

Gloria, it appears you are NOT doing anything wrong. According to Vincent's comment (about 3 post above your last one) there are a couple of different databases for Strong's numbers.

I rarely use Strong's numbers because of the resources that are in my library, but it is clear that we have different purposes for the way we each use Logos so I am NOT suggesting that you start doing it my way.

 

Which way is your way? (Why am I hearing Princess Bride movie quotes in my head)  Maybe I should try something new.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:18 PM

Gloria:
Why am I hearing Princess Bride movie quotes in my head

I don't know.  Are you playing a DVD on your computer?  Confused

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 10457
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:20 PM

The reason you're having trouble with the word, is its rarity:

The Lexham OT points to the NET notes '....  Unfortunately, [your word > hamushim] is a rare word with uncertain meaning. Most translations have something to do with “in battle array” or “prepared to fight” if need be (cf. Josh 1:14; 4:12). The Targum took it as “armed with weapons.” The LXX had “in the fifth generation.” Some have opted for “in five divisions.”

The jewish Tanakh notes the word similarly 'Meaning of hebrew hamushim uncertain.'  It then guesses with 'armed'.

So that's probably why you're getting a lot of answers.


Posts 1899
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 5:41 PM

Gloria:

Which way is your way? (Why am I hearing Princess Bride movie quotes in my head)  Maybe I should try something new.

I am seminary trained as a pastor so I have invested more money in original language resources and when I right-click I "search Lemma" to get to definitions in lexicons and dictionaries or use reverse Interlinears.  If I had your skill-set I would also be using Strong's numbers (or another system called GK numbering) to discover the Hebrew or Greek words that underlie English translations.

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Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 8:11 PM

Gloria:

 

I hope it's clear enough for you to see David, but the KJV I use does link me to 2571.  Am I doing something wrong here?

Logos has updated Reverse Interlinear resources so Strong's 2571 appears:

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 4780
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 12:26 AM

Vincent Setterholm:

David Thomas:
I don't know where you got the idea that the KJV links to #2571. As you can see below both my NASB, ESV and KJV all link to #2567.

Hello, David. The Strong's numbers in the Reverse Interlinears have been significantly improved for Logos 5 (though I think the plan is to release those updates to Logos 4 customers as well in the not-too-distant future - last I heard). In this case, HALOT treats 2571 and 2567 as the same verb, while Strong's analysis splits out the one piel form (in Gen 41:34) as 2567 while the 4 qal stem instances should be tagged as 2571 - and they are in the latest Reverse Interlinears.

So it sounds like you are saying that Strong's is more correct than HALOT. I am not surprised. George, however, needs someone to call 911 for him...he is having a coronary.

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 12:52 AM

George Somsel:

Gloria:
Why am I hearing Princess Bride movie quotes in my head

I don't know.  Are you playing a DVD on your computer?  Confused

this is classic.  bravo.

 

Posts 58
Gloria | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 5:13 AM

David Thomas:

Gloria:

Which way is your way? (Why am I hearing Princess Bride movie quotes in my head)  Maybe I should try something new.

I am seminary trained as a pastor so I have invested more money in original language resources and when I right-click I "search Lemma" to get to definitions in lexicons and dictionaries or use reverse Interlinears.  If I had your skill-set I would also be using Strong's numbers (or another system called GK numbering) to discover the Hebrew or Greek words that underlie English translations.

David, can you tell me what the GK numbering system is called on Logos.  I would like to look at it.  Thanks for recognizing my "skill-set" which could also be called "no skill-set."  If I weren't consumed with taking care of my ill husband and bible study, I would be working on that "skill-set" so I appreciate you mentioning the using of Strong's is okay for me.  I have tried the Lemma thing, and even took John's webinar trying to learn it, but it's just too much.  BUT...

That's why I am saying a huge THANK YOU to you all for your input.  You guys are like having a bunch of professors available to me.  I appreciate every single point of all the input.  And maybe this time, we all learned a little something maybe.

Poor George, whoever he is.  I'll pray for his Broken Heart

Now, to check on whether it's worth it to me to update to Logos 5.  The help that I get from your input is often worth the most to me.  So thank you very much for your responses to me and to others.

Gloria

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