Upgrade to 5 or Bible Works

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This post has 23 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 6
Bryan Glass | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 6 2012 12:39 PM

Hello,

Before I write this post, I would like to say that I love Logos!  It is very helpful to me as a pastor and seminary student and is an invaluable tool.  For some time now I have been considering buying Bible Works to run along with Logos to do more study on the original languages.  I have heard that Bible Works is a much more helpful tool to use for running searches and biblical language depth.  With that said, do the changes in Logos 5 compete with Bible Works in original language work?

My main reason for asking is that if Bible Works is still the better option for in-depth language studies then I will probably hold off on upgrading to Logos 5 and get bible works for cheaper.  However, if Logos now has the same usefulness and ability to do in depth language study then I would love to upgrade to 5 for the additional costs.

Any thoughts?

 

Posts 452
Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 1:21 PM

My friend, I can not answer your question as I don't have either...but that is a really good question!  I also have heard on these forums that BW is slightly better than L4 for strictly original language searching, but now with L5's clausal searching, etc., maybe L5 is simply the best all round now.  I'd like to think so, because I have many $$$ invested in Logos, and will never go to another company.  And one day, with the help of logos, maybe I'll be able to better utilise the original language resourcees I own along with L5's improved functionality (with the upcoming minimal crossgrades of course...lol!).

Posts 8644
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 1:24 PM

Bryan, 

Your mileage is going to vary on this one. I started with BW back at 4.0 and kept up through 8 even beta testing 7.  I have not bought 9.

There is nothing that I desire to do that L4/5 cannot do. Others may do more esoteric searching than I - but here at least is my $0.02.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 9276
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 1:31 PM

Bryan,

There are a number of people who contribute to the forum who use both or who have owned both programs. I'm sure you will hear from some of them. What I recall hearing is the BW is quite a bit faster with searches, and doesn't have the variety of resources Logos has, but that Logos does almost all BW does in one way or another plus a lot more. Re-buying some of the resources I have in Logos just to do exegetical work in another program has kept me from taking the plunge.

EDIT: while I was typing one of those dual owners chimed in.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2004
Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 6:00 PM

I love and use both programs. 

I have upgraded to Logos 5 and I use Bible Works 9.

What Bible Works has that Logos does not have, for instance, CNTTS NT Critical Apparatus.  This is included in the base price of BW.. It can be added as a module in Accordance for $99.oo.

I also like using the material in the Bible Works manuscript project. This is its description:

BibleWorks Manuscript Project

Compare and analyze original manuscript text and images

 

 

This massive project has been years in the making. BibleWorks 9 includes the first installment of this ongoing work. The BibleWorks Manuscript Project's initial release covers the following:

  • Sinaiticus
  • Vaticanus
  • Alexandrinus
  • Bezae
  • Washingtonianus
  • Boernerianus
  • GA1141

For these manuscripts, the BibleWorks Manuscript Project includes the following:

  • New full NT transcriptions
  • Complete NT digital image sets (over 7.5 GB!!)
  • Verse location tagging in images
  • Extensive transcription notes
  • MSS comparison tool
  • Morphological tagging (not complete for all manuscripts but updates will be provided free of charge to BibleWorks 9 users as they become available)

 

I use both programs for my exegetical work. 

 

 

Posts 142
Michael Sullivan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 6:09 PM

There is one big reason to get Bibleworks for original language work: price.  The  grammars and lexicons that come standard in Bibleworks are not standard in Logos.  They are very good resources.

Logos can do almost everything Bibleworks can, but Bibleworks is much faster than L4 (which I own), and I imagine it is probably still faster than L5.

Logos  has more resource tags (for example BDAG is hyperlinked to the apostolic fathers in Logos, but in Bibleworks it isn't).  Logos has broader Library, a lot of tools, visual diagrams charts, etc. . . and a far prettier user interface.

Biblework's interface  is "old school" and a little intimidating.  However, once you learn it, you can accomplish tasks much faster than in Logos (at least, that is my personal assessment).

I have Bibleworks 9 and like it a lot.   I really like its speed, the command line, the CNTTS apparatus and the caliber of grammars and lexicon that come standard - and you just can't beat the price!

So I continue to use and enjoy both.  I hope to get L5 when the crossgrade is released.

Posts 2844
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 7:44 PM

There may well be a small niche of original language scholars whose needs would be better served by Bible Works.   If original language study is most of what you do, then Bible Works might be your choice.  That assumes you are fluent in Greek or Hebrew, and that is what you do.

However, I do more original language study than most pastors.  I study every passage from which I preach in Greek or Hebrew.  I often try to memorize my text from the Greek NT.   I use insights from language in my sermons, without getting so scholarly that peoples' eyes glaze over.  And without a doubt, there is nothing that I need to do in the original text that I cannot easily do in Logos. 

Whatever slight advantage Bible Works may have in speedy and detailed original language searches is far outweighed by the vast and broad library in Logos.  Logos is going to be far more valuable to most pastors, and virtually all lay people, because it gives you the opportunity to build a full theological library. 

That is my opinion.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 12:37 AM

BibleWorks is extremely solid Bible study software for people that really want to dig deep.  You can even do your own morphological tagging.  It blows Logos out of the water for original language studies in every imaginable way.  It's quick and the people that program the software actually know how to program.  

As far as software speed goes, BibleWorks is like a McLaren F1 vs. the Logos 1960 Rambler American with the on-dash push button transmission.

BibleWorks is the good stuff.  It's the no playing around real deal for folks that study in the original languages. Get it.

 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 12:47 AM

Michael Childs:

There may well be a small niche of original language scholars whose needs would be better served by Bible Works.   If original language study is most of what you do, then Bible Works might be your choice.  That assumes you are fluent in Greek or Hebrew, and that is what you do.

However, I do more original language study than most pastors.  I study every passage from which I preach in Greek or Hebrew.  I often try to memorize my text from the Greek NT.   I use insights from language in my sermons, without getting so scholarly that peoples' eyes glaze over.  And without a doubt, there is nothing that I need to do in the original text that I cannot easily do in Logos. 

Whatever slight advantage Bible Works may have in speedy and detailed original language searches is far outweighed by the vast and broad library in Logos.  Logos is going to be far more valuable to most pastors, and virtually all lay people, because it gives you the opportunity to build a full theological library. 

Thanks for sharing your experience!

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 215
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 2:05 AM

Let me say first: Logos really needs to get the CNTTS NT Critical Apparatus.

Whether Logos or BW is for you, depends on your preferences.

  1. If you want a package that offer a relatively complete package, which you mainly use to research the Greek/Hebrew text, and do the commentary and biblical and theological dictionary things on paper, then BibleWorks is the way to go
  2. If you do research in textual variants, BibleWorks offers the images of important manuscripts and the CNTTS NT Critical Apparatus. BibleWorks is the way to go.
  3. If above situations don't apply to you, get Logos. Everything you can do in BibleWorks (except the images of manuscripts and the CNTTS NT Critical Apparatus), you can do in Logos. Personally I would say: You can do them in Logos easier and faster. I have both Logos and BW, and never switch back to BW, because everything I want, I can do in Logos. Besides, Logos has the advantage that you can build a library with your favorite lexicons, bible dictionaries, theological dictionaries and commentaries, that are all just a click away from your text.

In short: There are some situations in which BibleWorks is the better choice. But in all other cases, meaning for most people, Logos is absolutely the best choice.

 

Posts 142
Michael Sullivan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:23 AM

There is one more good thing I want to mention about Bibleworks (something that Logos really needs to work on) and that is: Bibles.  Biblewoks has far more Bibles available in different languages than Logos, and this is what got me started with Bibleworks.

If you are serving or living in a non-English speaking country, Bibleworks deserves a hard look.

Posts 45
Keith Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:33 AM

I recently (2 weeks ago) called New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and asked them if they were working with Logos on this project. They said they were only working with Acc. and BW. So it doesn't appear this will happen in the near futire in Logos.

Posts 620
Jonathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 7:59 AM

Bryan Glass:

However, if Logos now has the same usefulness and ability to do in depth language study then I would love to upgrade to 5 for the additional costs.

I think your statement, quoted above, tells me that you would be better served by upgrading to Logos 5. Let me explain why:

First, a caveat, you should know that I am a Mac user, but I owned and used BibleWorks extensively from BibleWorks version 6.0 through 8.0. I have never used BibleWorks 9.0, but I am quite familiar with the new features that it offers. So, I am not going to be able offer you a complete view of BibleWork 9.0, but I can tell you that I doubt the user-experience (usability, complexity, etc) has changed much since 8.0. (IMHO, it really didn't change much going from 6.0 through 8.0).

Second, I think that the average, seminary trained, "original-language-studying" pastor will be able to identify closely with what  Michael Childs said:

Michael Childs:

There may well be a small niche of original language scholars whose needs would be better served by Bible Works.   If original language study is most of what you do, then Bible Works might be your choice.  That assumes you are fluent in Greek or Hebrew, and that is what you do.

However, I do more original language study than most pastors.  I study every passage from which I preach in Greek or Hebrew.  I often try to memorize my text from the Greek NT.   I use insights from language in my sermons, without getting so scholarly that peoples' eyes glaze over.  And without a doubt, there is nothing that I need to do in the original text that I cannot easily do in Logos. 

Whatever slight advantage Bible Works may have in speedy and detailed original language searches is far outweighed by the vast and broad library in Logos.  Logos is going to be far more valuable to most pastors, and virtually all lay people, because it gives you the opportunity to build a full theological library. 

That is my opinion.

I also study every sermon that I preach in the original languages. I can't say I memorize the text (and might I add: WOW MICHAEL!), but by the end of the week I've spent a lot of time with the original text. I will typically perform several word studies , a number of grammatical searches, and typically run at least a couple of syntax searches. Right away, Logos has an advantage with me because of the syntax searching. There is no syntax searching in BibleWorks. Furthermore, I think most users who are going to search for a syntactical feature in one program are going to be much more likely to use the morphological and general Bible searching in that same program. Why clutter your desktop with two programs when one will do the trick, right?

The problem with Logos had been that their morphological and syntactic searching was buggy and slow. For a time I  doubted whether Logos was committed to original language study. I voiced several concerns with Logos (forums posts, personal emails to Bob, etc) and within a month Logos had addressed or was in the process of addressing my concerns. My faith was restored, and with Logos 5, my faith in Logos' commitment to the study of original languages is even stronger.

Simply, I just don't see why you would need BibleWorks if you are looking for search capabilities alone. Yes, Logos is slightly slower (however, L5 is much improved IMHO), but would you really use two programs?

Third, L5 has some nice time savers, such as the new search helps and clausal search capability. Honestly, I don't know why Logos hasn't promoted these two parts of L5 as highly as the whole "connected" concept. Every pastor dreams of spending hours researching every minute detail of the text. However, we all have limited time and we have to choose our battles wisely. This week I came across what I thought was a unique connection between my text and another section of the Scriptures. I was considering running a syntax search or a complex morphological search. However, instead I ran a simple, English-subject and Greek-verb clausal search and discovered that the more complex search wasn't worth running. The new clausal search, along with Logos' linking of English to the original languages, probably saved me twenty minutes of chasing a dead end. The added twenty minutes of time allowed me to study a more important concept and will (Lord willing) produce a better sermon on Sunday. 

Fourth, it cannot be denied that BibleWorks is ahead of Logos in terms of its textual criticism tools. I really, really want CNTTS in Logos, but if I am honest with myself, I probably wouldn't use it as much as I dream I would. Most of the critical questions I address in my sermon prep can be addressed with the addition of the German Bible Society Student Bundle (which by the way is offered at a significant discount with the purchase of a Logos 5 base package). Yes, the BibleWorks manuscript project is great and CNTTS is remarkable, but how much of that is actually going to help you make an informed decision about an issue with the text? Unless you are a scholar par excellence, I doubt its going to add much to your study.

To sum up my thoughts: as a pastor, I try to make my decisions based on my understanding of my responsibilities as a shepherd. Sheep need two things: a good shepherd and good food. Sometimes you are a good shepherd through providing a massive feast for people on Sunday. A feast that you have finely crafted through hours and hours of study. However, most weeks you have to balance the responsibilities of shepherding with your desire to provide a feast. We sometimes forget in our love of "the study" that, although we must provide a good meal on Sunday, we cannot neglect to be a good shepherd Monday-Saturday. At the risk of putting too fine a point on things, I just don't see a way that BibleWorks is going to give you anything that Logos can't if this is your goal/outlook.

(FYI: As noted by some above, if you plan on pursuing a life in the scholastic realm my answer would be much different).

Syntax Searching Group | Michigan Logos Users | L5 FAQ | OSX 10.10 | 2.4 GHz i5 | 8 GB Ram

Posts 7
donald j perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 6:54 PM

One advantage of Bible Works that has been overlooked is that you can re-sell it without paying a fee, like you will with Logos.  Also, you do not have to be pluged into the internet to use it. 

DJP

Posts 7
donald j perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 6:56 PM

An atvantage though of Logos is that you can get far more then you could on just your hard-drive.

DJP

Posts 59
Eric Ruhnow | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:05 PM

777:

As far as software speed goes, BibleWorks is like a McLaren F1 vs. the Logos 1960 Rambler American with the on-dash push button transmission.

BibleWorks is the good stuff.  It's the no playing around real deal for folks that study in the original languages. Get it.

777, I agree. BibleWorks is scary fast for searches. The GUI is rather boring - even ugly to some, but you cannot beat it for speed. I miss my copy of BW7 for the search speed. I donated my copy to a pastor friend of mine as he was getting into OL studies and I had recently started upgrading my Logos package. L4 was OK for searches, but the promised speed increases for L4 never really appeared and my nostalgia for BW search speeds continues to grow.

The biggest plus for BW is that you don't need a high-end system for it to run well. I could run it very well on a 2nd Gen Intel Atom system (L4 would choke that system).

Lenovo TS130 Xeon E3-1245V2 | 20GB | 256 GB SSD (OS and Logos) | 3TB WD Red | Windows 10 Pro x64

L4 & L5 Platinum, L6 Gold, L5 Reformed Gold, L6 Reformed Bronze, L7 Lutheran Silver, L7 Reformed Starter, L7 Full Feature Set

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:16 PM

For almost every function Logos will be at least as good as Bible Works. Plus you get much more robust library integration and a much better user interface. The software itself will run a bit slower for some search functionality but certainly not all. The benefit of Logos is that you have a comparable original language study capability (what specifically are you wanting it to do?) with much more access (and easier access) to extrabiblical resources to facilitate and augment that study.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:16 PM

donald j perry:

One advantage of Bible Works that has been overlooked is that you can re-sell it without paying a fee, like you will with Logos.  Also, you do not have to be pluged into the internet to use it. 

DJP

The fee for Logos is minimal

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:23 PM

Jonathan:
The problem with Logos had been that their morphological and syntactic searching was buggy and slow.

My favorite Logos feature of visual filter highlighting does take awhile to combine hundreds of search results for simultaneous display:

With verbs and things highlighted in Greek and English, easy to "see" range of verbal expression in context.  In Matthew 6, noticed a variety of verbal moods and tenses used, including seven imperatives in verses 9 through 13.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 7:54 PM

Off Topic: Is the CNTTS NT Critical Apparatus on Accordance included in any of the Accordance 10 base collections or does it have to be purchased separately?

Reason why I'm asking is early next year, I'm looking at getting Accordance 10. I'll probably start off on Essential, then work my way up into Ultimate.

Is at tool in any of those collections or would I need to buy it separately?

I'm in a similar boat here just on a different platform. My seminary runs on Logos and is mostly PC guys, but I'm going to be taking some Biblical Languages courses from other seminaries besides mine when I go into graduate studies (and fold the credits back into my graduate degrees; reason why I'm doing so is there's a few fine professors I want to study Biblical Languages under). Those professors are more Mac-oriented and mostly use Accordance for their Biblical Language studies. So my goal is to purchase Accordance next year and get trained on it before going into graduate work, then use both it and Logos in seminary.

I was contemplating it for a Christmas present this year but something else came up. ;-)

Eventually my workload plan is to primarily use Logos as I do now and store all my personal documents in it. Then use Accordance for speciality Biblical Language work, tools like the Bible Atlas, and for "speed searching", then use WORDsearch for running my books that I can't run on Logos or Accordance.

That way I can simplify my life (I've already phased out tools like OliveTree and Biblesoft; not that they're good, but trying to simplify my workload) and focus on the three core programs I need for Bible study. I think it's a solid toolbox.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

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