L5 Loss of all useful commentaries (except 1 or 2)
I was looking to upgrade my L4 to L5, and I KNOW all about the base package "changes", which are supposed to be for the better. But, by the looks of it, L5 added some less useful "fluffy" material, like maps and counseling stuff, at the loss of the best part of Logos in the first place. As far as I can tell, no package comes with the most important parts of the old L4 software, Baker Exegetical Commentary Series, Pillar NT Commentary Series, NIGTC, and the like. These great collections are what made Logos worth the investment. What happened to the good commentaries? I now have to buy them separately though they came with the software a couple weeks ago. Just made my "upgrade" another $1,200.
I don't see very many items that would actually be useful for the language scholar or seminary student in the new packages. The response from the sales rep to me last night was "sorry, I feel your pain, brother." Wow
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Well, Craig, if those commentaries are the ones you enjoy, this must have been a real disappointment for you.
I'm over on the 'original languages' side of the house, and I was happy they didn't bother (on the language texts). The old OL had just enough to convince you to buy the 'real' resources. So maybe it 'worked'.
Frankly (and I know this isn't economically feasible), but 'packages' with metal names seem to me to be pretty passe. If I was 'new' I'd want a 'Lexham' package (where Logos' heart is and I suspect where they're actually going). Else 'you pick!' (of course making sure people didn't pick the really good ones).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Craig, I think about the same thing you do. The packages are very less compelling than they were a few years ago when some very good commentaries were included.
Today for the pastor or student purchasing a first package, buying something like Bronze or Silver to get the language resources and most of the functionality, then adding commentaries seems it might be the best approach.
I'm sorry you waited hoping better was coming. You are not alone in being disappointed about what was in the upgraded packages.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Craig Bagley said:
These great collections are what made Logos worth the investment. What happened to the good commentaries?
I agree too. Logos has said that it was the copyright holders decision to not allow those works in the base packages anymore.
If you haven't already, you should click on the Customize button to see special prices on those commentary series when purchased with a base package.
I think Silver + Minimal Crossgrade + additional commentary sets is the best way to go currently. Gold does provide a couple necessary resources, like TDNT, but you would have to determine if Gold's resources fit your needs, because you could spend that money on BDAG.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Craig Bagley said:
As far as I can tell, no package comes with the most important parts of the old L4 software, Baker Exegetical Commentary Series, Pillar NT Commentary Series, NIGTC, and the like.
I do agree, and was glad I got these in L4 - although BECNT were lost from L4 over a year ago, I think.
Craig Bagley said:But, by the looks of it, L5 added some less useful "fluffy" material, like maps and counseling stuff, at the loss of the best part of Logos in the first place.
There are some very useful heavyweight additions to L5, including:
- Lexham Hebrew Bible with Morphology
- Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 28th Edition, with Morphology
- Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (4 vols.)
- New Dictionary of Biblical Theology
- New Dictionary of Theology
- Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (3 vols.)
- Theological Lexicon of the New Testament (3 vols.)
- Institutes of the Christian Religion (3 vols.)
- The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer (5 vols.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Do you not receive full L5 functionality when you "upgrade" your package? I have scholars L3, crossgraded to L4. Won't buying the cheapest L5 package get me the cross grade as well as the new material in the package?
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Craig Bagley said:
Do you not receive full L5 functionality when you "upgrade" your package? I have scholars L3, crossgraded to L4. Won't buying the cheapest L5 package get me the cross grade as well as the new material in the package?
Gold contains all the functionality. Silver and below lack some things. Consult the comparison chart for the details. A popular strategy I've been reading about has been to go with Silver and then do the Minimal Crossgrade to pick up the rest of the added functions.
Prov. 15:23
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Oh, and I already own BDAG, TDNT, and many others I have purchased along the way. Only things I'm still looking for are the BHS and NA27 critical apparatuses, Commentaries, Early Church Fathers, and Lexham stuff (which, I admit, looks pretty good).
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Craig Bagley said:
BHS and NA27 critical apparatuses
Then you'll want to look at https://www.logos.com/product/21066/german-bible-society-bundle-student-edition
Prov. 15:23
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I had not really looked at what is in L5 Platinum, having started with L3 Gold and then L4 Platinum. The OP is onto something, though. Were I looking at Logos as a new customer, I would probably begin with a lower package and then add what I wanted.
L4 Platinum, when L4 came out in 2009 (about the same time of year as L5, if memory serves), was a great package. L5 Platinum is not nearly the value as far as commentaries are concerned.
Having said that, I will probably upgrade from L4 Platinum to L5 Platinum. The contents make the upgrade viable, and I am fortunate to have the commentaries that came in previous iterations and then some..
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Bill Moore said:
The contents make the upgrade viable, and I am fortunate to have the commentaries that came in previous iterations and then some..
Personally choose to upgrade from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Portfolio. The delta increase over Diamond was less than 10 % of the combined regular prices for many items, which were in my wish list.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I have to agree with the disappointing commentaries in L5. If I was in the market for Bible software these days, I think I would have to look elsewhere - considering the price.
I had L4 Platinum before L5 rolled out, but I would certainly pass on L5 if I was starting from scratch - I don't see enough value in the full price (seems to be too many post-CP titles used as "filler" to boost the number of books - as a longtime user of Logos, I know that several of the L5 package resources were originally on CP, but a new user would be unaware that resources are older, out-of-copyright resources [and not to rehash an old argument, but a lot of people agree that Logos' "list" prices for these resources are over-inflated]).
I'm sad to see so many publishers pull an about-face on their licensing.
Lenovo TS130 Xeon E3-1245V2 | 20GB | 256 GB SSD (OS and Logos) | 3TB WD Red | Windows 10 Pro x64
L4 & L5 Platinum, L6 Gold, L5 Reformed Gold, L6 Reformed Bronze, L7 Lutheran Silver, L7 Reformed Starter, L7 Full Feature Set
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Eric Ruhnow said:
I have to agree with the disappointing commentaries in L5. If I was in the market for Bible software these days, I think I would have to look elsewhere - considering the price.
I would check elsewhere too, but once I saw the competition, I'd come back to Logos. Logos is the best for building a digital library, no matter what the base packages contain.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Bill Moore said:
The contents make the upgrade viable, and I am fortunate to have the commentaries that came in previous iterations and then some..
Personally choose to upgrade from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Portfolio. The delta increase over Diamond was less than 10 % of the combined regular prices for many items, which were in my wish list.
Keep Smiling
Good for you. There's a lot in Portfolio that I like. However, the bottom-line upgrade cost is more than I need to take on.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Todd Phillips said:Eric Ruhnow said:
I have to agree with the disappointing commentaries in L5. If I was in the market for Bible software these days, I think I would have to look elsewhere - considering the price.
I would check elsewhere too, but once I saw the competition, I'd come back to Logos. Logos is the best for building a digital library, no matter what the base packages contain.
I agree, Todd. I've looked and end up deeper into Logos. With the investment I now have in Logos (which is not nearly what many of our forum members evidently have), it's hard not to stay with them regardless what the competition now does.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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I think everyone does understand this, but just to point out for anyone else reading this that might be confused, those of us who had L4 collections and are upgrading to L5, we didn't lose any of our commentaries. All of our L4 resources transitioned over to L5 no matter what collection we upgraded to.
For new customers though, it is disappointing that some of the commentaries are gone. I hope some of the publishers will change their minds and reconsider so more new customers can enjoy their material in future Logos base packages.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Kevin Becker said:Craig Bagley said:
BHS and NA27 critical apparatuses
Then you'll want to look at https://www.logos.com/product/21066/german-bible-society-bundle-student-edition
Yes, but not through that link. You should use the 'Customize' button mentioned above instead. That will bring the price down to almost half (provided you buy some kind of L5 package or Crossgrade).
Craig Bagley said:Early Church Fathers
Recommend taking a look at the Catholic packages at http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare. The ECF are included even in the smallest package, so you may be able to get them cheaper that way. Plus you'll get an awful lot of other stuff included as well. Note:
- To see your price you need to click on the respective packages and go to the product pages. The overview page still only shows the full price.
- You'll get an additional 15% discount by using the coupon code found at Introducing Logos 5 – Verbum!
- Rumours say that a sales rep can give 25% instead of 15%.
- Verbum packages should qualify for the 'Customize' discounts, but you may need to go through a sales rep.
- This will be the 'Catholic edition' of the ECF. The texts are identical, but I understand some really anti-Catholic footnotes have been removed.
Craig Bagley said:Lexham stuff
A little bit of that is included in the lowest Verbum package as well (more in the higher packages). If you want to combine a package with the Crossgrade, I recommend buying the package first.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I can't always figure out what publishers are doing with their pricing and strategies — sometimes (often times) I don't think they even know know themselves.
As regards commentary sets I recently received a promotional email from another bible software company (I won't say here, and pls don't ask me which one, this is Logos' forum, if a Logos staff member wants I can send them a copy by email) doing (special granted) offers like — $300 for the full set of Word Biblical Commentary, NICOT: $350, NICNT: $250, NICTC: $250.
My point is that they can't be offering prices like that, even on special, without support from the publishers. So when publishers say they don't want their commentary sets in Logos collections I think.... publishers prove they often don't have much common sense, as regards ebooks they've allowed themselves to be put into a corner by Amazon which is fast becoming a 'double' monopoly (to end consumers and publishers).
I will not be buying any of those sets, even though the Word package is sorely tempting, because I will not be able to incorporate them in my platform which is Logos 5. Having said that I think Logos needs to be more aggressively pursuing similar sorts of deals from publishers.
I also believe, have stated it on the forum and will continue to say it, that Logos:
- Needs to start charging for (major) software updates
- Needs to realise that there are now, with Logos 5, three components to the Logos platform: software, the Logos application; DataSets with their related analysis functionality; book resources
- Needs to NOT tie (limit) DataSets to the high end collections.
Point 3 (Logos are you listening) is particularly relevant, especially given the comments that customers are making about commentary sets (not great choice in current collections) and not being willing to go up to the high-end collections. This doesn't mean that they should give away the DataSets functionality, by all means charge for it (figure out some way), but don't restrict full functionality of data sets to high end collections. All that does is throw away a high value, unique selling point. Look at the interest in DataSets in the forums, Sean Boisen is run off his feet! And the best part is — Logos customers are going to find many of the bugs in DataSets and help Logos improve it.
End result? More people attracted to the Logos platform and once they invest they, let's face it, are locked in. But we don't mind being locked in as long as we see a return on our investment and have an enjoyable platform to use. A Bible study platform is obviously a special case, we're not talking about some mass market title being published as an ebook — for the case of general book titles I am dead against any sort of lock-in or limitation (DRM).
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Patrick S. said:
I also believe, have stated it on the forum and will continue to say it, that Logos:
- Needs to start charging for (major) software updates
- Needs to realise that there are now, with Logos 5, three components to the Logos platform: software, the Logos application; DataSets with their related analysis functionality; book resources
- Needs to NOT tie (limit) DataSets to the high end collections.
1. Wouldn't that mean we would have to pay for the engine, which would lead to more people griping?
2. There's always been "three components" with Logos since at least Libronix. Back on Libronix it was Libronix, the Addin Modules, and the resources.
3. The data sets can be purchased using the Minimal Crossgrade, and it seemed on the upgrade page that Logos even hinted around at selling them a la carte as well. That's how Logos operated in the past with the Libronix addin modules. I could spend about $20 per module or $150 for the Biblical Languages supplement, some of the addin modules were included in the lower-end collections (like Passage Guide, etc), but if I wanted a higher end collection with the additional resources, Logos threw in the additional premium addin modules with it.
I don't see much of a difference now. The Minimal Crossgrade will still give you the datasets, or if you're planning on getting a high end package anyway, you get them included. Same thing they've done for years.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Without doubt, if you have an orientation towards commentaries, L4 Platinum of several years ago was a very, very sweet package. I would not be surprised if we do not see that kind of deal again. It was so good, that it made the jump from L4 Platinum to L4 Portfolio seem much more extreme. I had kicked around the idea of buying Portfolio a few times because of some of the resources I wanted, but other sales and needs kept coming up. Even L5 Portfolio has dropped some things such as ISBE.
What to do now? Just a guess, but I think the economics of the current offerings is more what we are going to see. Buying a smaller package and adding through specials/sales the commentaries you want is probably the way to go.
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Nathan Parker said:Patrick S. said:
I also believe, have stated it on the forum and will continue to say it, that Logos:
- Needs to start charging for (major) software updates
- Needs to realise that there are now, with Logos 5, three components to the Logos platform: software, the Logos application; DataSets with their related analysis functionality; book resources
- Needs to NOT tie (limit) DataSets to the high end collections.
1. Wouldn't that mean we would have to pay for the engine, which would lead to more people griping?
2. There's always been "three components" with Logos since at least Libronix. Back on Libronix it was Libronix, the Addin Modules, and the resources.
3. The data sets can be purchased using the Minimal Crossgrade, and it seemed on the upgrade page that Logos even hinted around at selling them a la carte as well. That's how Logos operated in the past with the Libronix addin modules. I could spend about $20 per module or $150 for the Biblical Languages supplement, some of the addin modules were included in the lower-end collections (like Passage Guide, etc), but if I wanted a higher end collection with the additional resources, Logos threw in the additional premium addin modules with it.
I don't see much of a difference now. The Minimal Crossgrade will still give you the datasets, or if you're planning on getting a high end package anyway, you get them included. Same thing they've done for years.
Hi Nathan
- Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps the ones who gripe would gripe even if Logos gave it away?
I look at it this way, it takes money to develop the 'platform' — software, resource creation, Datasets — and that money has to come from somewhere, obviously us the customers. If Logos spreads the cost around to the various components of the platform then things could work better and perhaps the cost of book resources (commentaries) could go down — who knows. As it stands now in one sense I am (cough) subsidising the 'freeloaders', that is those people who 'demand' to get the software for nothing. I don't say that judgementally, and in one sense I really don't care, but it is still a fact. - OK — then I'll say there are four components now :-) My key point is that the extra Datasets, and the functionality they provide throughout Logos 5, are new and more specifically they require, and will continue to require, a lot of specialist human knowledge and work to build and expand. Things like the old Libronix modules were more primarily a one-time coding effort.
- The core Datasets were offered as a 'bare bones' purchase (first link below) but really I don't see anyone buying that package, for us existing Logos 4 users the Minimal Crossgrade (second link) was a no-brainer. I actually went Silver followed by the Minimal Crossgrade (for $6) which got me the Datasets up to Gold level.
http://www.logos.com/product/28494/logos-5-core-datasets
http://www.logos.com/product/28376/logos-5-minimal-crossgrade
Re: the above if I am continuing as existing user it's OK, but if I am coming in as a new purchaser to get that functionality I would have to go straight to Gold. That may put some people off. That coupled with reported higher cost for things like popular commentary sets is not ideal.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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I've looked at what most base-packages contain, not actually considered Diamond just looked at what it contains for ideas. The extremes: Basic and Portfolio are the ones I didn't look at. To make a wise decision I've started by looking at the base-package that contains a desirable commentary set (Believers Church Bible Commentary (24 vols.) (BCBC) since I'm very interested in Anabaptism and it's about the closest match to my beliefs), NA28 and BDAG: Platinum. I agree that You can just as well step down a level and buy BDAG separately. Likewise I don't need every BCBC volume, I can budget $100+ for individual BCBC items and that'll be enough, btw they lowered some of the prices, like I wrote in: Lowered prices on individual purchases on commentary-volumes. Then I've been calculating what it would cost me to buy only the titles I actually want from the package - which has enabled me to drop my wished-for base-package level several steps. Sure it's sort of time consuming to go through the list, but You don't actually need to look up the prices. I had the /upgrade -page loaded in the web-browser and went home. I don't have internet at home, never had since the analog modem times. I was able to see what I needed to see from the page offline. I made up prices for the titles, guessing what they would cost - that way my estimates gives me a picture of what I would be willing to pay for them - if I end up taking just the minimal crossgrade and some items are more expensive I have the choice of not buying them at all.
Yeah, DMB pointed out somewhere that the content in base-packages is so old that it feels like going to a second-hand bookshop. I've noticed that too.
So, compared to comparing prices when You buy food, it pays better to give several hours of thought to what base-package to upgrade to, or whether to just go with the minimal crossgrade.
My previous considerations are at: Force a theology and Logos 4 OLL. As You can see from these posts: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/59557/424178.aspx#424178 ... "I'll only order [what] I REALLY, REALLY want. What I've decided since I didn't want Platinum anylonger a few days ago, whether or not I upgrade (Silver lacks many titles that I desire) is that I'll order little-by-little" ... and Re: Is this desirable (social pressure)? ... where I also say something about what I don't like with Silver (such as that it comes with English Bibles and interlinears that I've actually been avoiding and won't need in the future either). I'm considering Silver. I have OLL (Original Languages Library) which gives the needed dataset (called LXX, renamed in L5) lacking in Silver. I don't mind the omission of Pillar and some other items, like I wrote in: Increasingly less 5-star resources in base packages? - Logos Bible .... Todd Phillips said:I think Silver + Minimal Crossgrade + additional commentary sets is the best way to go currently. Gold does provide a couple necessary resources, like TDNT, but you would have to determine if Gold's resources fit your needs, because you could spend that money on BDAG.Eric Ruhnow said:I don't see enough value in the full price (seems to be too many post-CP titles used as "filler" to boost the number of books - as a longtime user of Logos, I know that several of the L5 package resources were originally on CP,
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Patrick, I was surprised by your #3 answer. Currently, the web offers me Silver for $272 and Minimum Crossgrade for $150. Really, when purchasing Silver at first, the price for MC then diminishes to $6 so that I pay under $280 for all? I am L4 Portfolio owner and rather spend my money for top-notch commentaries than for higher base packages.
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Yep, I can definitely confirm, my L5 Silver upgrade price was higher than yours because I started from a lower L4 collection.
The price then for the Minimal Crossgrade was $6.81 as the Silver covered the bulk of things.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Having $5000 invested in proprietary software will always be a gamble (unless you have $5000 to throw around). For all the amazing benefits of Logos, I cannot give by Logos resources to my future generations (or even my wife, sadly). Since my budget is limited I must make my expenses count. I'm thinking about trimming Logos back to language and Bible tools and going "old school" by buying used paper commentaries online (or pick up at estate sales/garage sales).
I think Logos would have been better served to cater different packages to different people, not just make the more expensive ones include the language stuff. So, unless I can find a wealthy benefactor, I must say goodbye to more Logos resources. Kinda funny how Logos is made free for my professors while the poor seminarians pay out thousands of dollars.
I would gladly advertise for Logos if they gave me a killer deal! Alas...
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Craig Bagley said:
For all the amazing benefits of Logos, I cannot give by Logos resources to my future generations (or even my wife, sadly).
Actually you can transfer your Logos licence, for a minimal fee, to another person at any time you wish, even before you die — if you wanted to, I won't be!
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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But...heaven and....Logos will pass away, and you will have to hope some software comes along in the future that can read this proprietary format. It's great, but it won't last like physical copies. It's all a tradeoff.
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Let's keep the hopes up!
Craig Bagley said:Logos will pass away,
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