Logos 5 is out? They never finished Logos 4 yet!

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Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 7:34 AM

Jon:

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how prior purchases are credited because the books are offered at such massive discounts in the packages. Take a hypothetical example: Logos takes a bundle of books that if bought separately would cost $10,000 and offer it on sale for $1000. A customer comes along who has already bought half of the books in the package individually totalling $5,000. The discount is of course $500 because that's the value of those books within the package bundle. Should Logos discount the bundle by $5,000 and pay the customer $4,000 to buy the bundle? Huh?

Very well put.

Posts 250
Jim Erwin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 7:40 AM

Hello John,

 

I generally do not reply to the forums. I only read them for my benefit. However, I think that it would help if you had some perspective. In general, especially as pastors and teachers, we have to pay for what we need to "rightly divide the Word." I have spent money to get physical books (which are of little use to me now in the digital age.) I had spent time downloading and upgrading e-Sword, BibleWorks, and WordSearch. Each time, they had been updated and changed in ways that frustrated me. 

I bought a couple of Nelson titles as well as a Charles Stanley CD back when I used Windows 95 (wow times have changed.) I stopped using Windows four years ago. I bought a Mac and have never looked back. But I have had to go through Snow Leopard, Lion, and Mountain Lion OS. Those upgrades I paid for. I have had to upgrade e-Sword (which I paid for the new resources). I had to upgrade WordSearch (which I upgraded since 5.0). 

I switched to Logos because I realized that I did needed the value of the search capabilities. I also liked the fact that it was cross-platform. In many ways, it is the best Bible program for real serious study. So I bought the Scholar edition in March 2012 (on an academic discount). I have bought some pre-pubs and other books on community pricing. I have also been diligent in searching Vyrso for free books everyday. 

Did I like that Logos 5 just came out? No. I was content with Logos 4. But I bought the Starter package and then the Minimal Crossgrade because of the resources and more importantly the search capabilities and data sets. Do I like that my "status" has been downgraded? I don't care about that. I understand that I am buying the engine and the capabilities. Frankly, when you get this far into ministry, you have so many resources that you don't worry about how many you need. (I have been in ministry for 14 years). 

Technology will change and  you will have to pay for the changes. That's just how it us. I am thankful that I can still work on a Mac. I hate the new Windows 8 because it is so confusing. My kids are ok with any new technology. I am not old, but because technology is changing so quickly, it is hard to adapt. 

Logos is a COMPANY which is working to help people study the Bible better. So you have to realize that (1) they intend to make a profit, and because of that (2) they have to make some decisions with which we may not agree. Sometimes, the roll-out is difficult for the consumer (remember Apple's Maps app?)

If you really have a problem with the technology, then  go back to preparing with pen and paper, a typewriter (remember those?), and books. Or just simply use the Bible for your preparation (what a novel idea!). 

I for one am willing to pay the money to save time...

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jimerwin/ - a postmodern pastor in a digital world

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 8:00 AM

Jon:
The discount is of course $500 because that's the value of those books within the package bundle. Should Logos discount the bundle by $5,000 and pay the customer $4,000 to buy the bundle? Huh?

Sometimes contacting a sales rep will result in a better final price; other times we end up paying a cost of an upgrade based on a pre-determined algorithm that discounts the cost based on your current library. The L5 upgrade is an example. The final cost is based on what books and dataset(s) you have currently, not on what base package you owned previously. Logos has stated that you don't pay again for books you already have in your library - not sure why for some folks this is hard to understand.

Logos has given away for free many wonderful books.  They continue to do so; they don't have to do it this at all - they choose to for one or more reasons. Logos also has to pay salaries and the utility bills too.  So, it is naive to think that we should get new product, such as L5, for free.  Logos has promised a free L5 engine sometime early next year and there is no reason to doubt them.  Although L4 and L5 are not perfect, I am a happy user of L5. I'm guessing that 99% of people on this earth who serve Christ (full-time or part-time) wished they could use a powerful tool such as L4 or L5. Many pastors wish they could get their hands on Bibles in their own languages!  We in the USA take things here for granted everyday. Count our blessings - we have many compared to the less fortunate.

David

Posts 12
Ekkie Tepsupornchai | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 8:57 AM

As someone with over a decade of experience in the field of information technology, it is simply not a sustainable business model to continue supporting old product versions beyond a few years, especially after a newer version has been released.

The fact that Libronix 3 used to have consistent issues with each new IE release, shows the software foundation was too dependent upon specific Windows resources that are unstable by their nature. That by itself, warranted the re-platform effort for version 4.

And as much as I would like to get new software versions for free (or close to it), such practices place unsustainable financial pressures upon that company. At the end of the day, even if we give Logos the benefit of the doubt (which I do) that they have a worthy and God-honoring goal with their software, they still have to be able to support their employees and overall operational costs (which MUST be significant).

So while my mindset is to be able to pay as little as possible for what I get, I also want to do my part to ensure they stay in business.

And for what it's worth, I've been using Logos from the beginning on Windows 7 (both 32-bit and 64-bit) on four or five different laptops / PCs over the years. While installation is not always a snap, the software has always worked for me (just be sure that you're running at least Internet Explorer 8 or higher).

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 3:24 PM

First of all, like others said, Logos doesn't make you "pay" for new "versions" of Logos "every few months". 

Logos has always released the core engine free of charge with every major Logos release. Maybe not on "day one", but the fact is the engine has always been, and is still currently, free (they will be releasing it after the initial upgrade rush so that a bunch of people don't overtax their servers at once, which is fair). 

Additionally, Logos 4 was released back in 2009, and Logos 3 was either 2005 or 2006 (would have to remember). Logos usually released "major upgrades" about every four years, which is far less than software companies like Apple that are moving to a yearly release schedule for iOS and OS X.

Second of all, if you wait for the L5 free engine, you can download the free engine and keep your Logos 4 investment current without paying a penny. It will replace L4 as well, so there's no need to run "three separate" programs. L5 upgrades and builds upon L4. The only additional "program" you might need to run is L3 if there's some legacy features you need. Personally I haven't used L3 in years. Once I got comfy with L4, I ditched L3 as fast as I could and didn't look back. L4 was becoming stable enough and much smarter to use, so I stuck with it.

Thirdly, as other stated, L4 was desperately needed. L3 was heavily tied to IE, and when IE updated, L3 broke. It was painful to endure, and L3 was also a very complex and heavy engine. L4 broke the tie to IE, rebuilt the engine from the ground up to a much more up-to-date piece of technology, and helped Logos move forward. I work for WeatherBug, and we encountered a similar issue to Logos with our desktop app and are taking a similar path. WB6 was tied to and broke with IE updates. WB7 is being built on .NET and will be architecturally similar to Logos, just as a weather app.

Fourth, L4 isn't dead. Some Logos users are still on older Windows/Mac releases that cannot run L5, so Logos will continue to offer select updates for them. They won't get all the new features of the L5 engine, but Logos is being generous to offer them certain needed updates, which is more generous than some software vendors.

Fifth, for those that can upgrade to L5, Logos doesn't need to "finish" L4. L4 was never the "end all" to Logos. L5 builds upon L4, refines it, polishes it, enhances the look and performance, and adds some new features that true are missing from L4. But here's the good news about the engine. It's free. Holding off for the free engine will give you these particular new features without paying a penalty.

So what's the big deal about the new base packages and minimal crossgrade? With L5, just as with every new release of Logos, the Logos team found ways to make their existing base packages better and more feature-filled, and to add new content and resources to them. With L5, Logos also added a ton of new data sets that took an entire team of Bible scholars to labor over the Word to bring us a wealth of Biblical scholarship and Biblical information at our fingertips. Information you will not find in print books or other Bible software. With the new L5 datasets, we're one step closer to not only having our own personal research assistant at our fingertips, but we're also having the equivalent of hiring our own personal team of Bible scholars that combs through the Word and gives us information, all with a single click.

Logos can't simply give away these new resources and new datasets for free. So Logos is offering two great ways to get them. 1. Purchase a "Minimal Crossgrade". You'll get all the new scholarly datasets, just not any of the new base collection resources. 2. Upgrade to a new base collection. You'll get the new datasets plus the new resources. While the base collection upgrades aren't "cheap", there's a wealth of material there you get with each upgrade. Try going out and buying them in print for the same price. And don't forget about Logos' Payment Plans. They really help spread out the costs.

To address your question about your "just paying for the L4 crossgrade", as well as "you feel like your double-paying for books you already own", like others said, your best option is to talk to Bob Pritchett, the company CEO. He might assist you with your recent purchasing of the L4 crossgrade to make it less painful to crossgrade to L5 should you want the new datasets. Or you can wait on the free engine. Either choice. 

As for "double paying for books", your best option is to talk to Customer Service first, not sales. I'm beginning to get a feeling some of your Libronix collections might not be properly activated/registered with Logos, which could result in your Logos account as not showing some books you own. You need to have a personal consultation with the Logos Customer Service team, ensure all of your Libronix collections are indeed activated, ensure your Libronix ID/resources are associated with your Logos.com account, then see what your upgrade price would be. I'm believing there might be a disconnect somewhere that could easily be resolved by talking with Customer Service, not just sales.

I hope some of this info helps you out, and I hope you'll still consider upgrading to L5 in some form or fashion, whether it be through a collection, "minimal crossgrade", or even the free engine. L5 is an excellent upgrade to Logos Bible Software, and one that you'll truly love.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 9:27 PM

Thanks for the sales pitch, but i have been hearing about revolutionary Bible search since version 2.0. Im not throwing any more money that direction. Logos as a company has lost my confidence. What we need is a 3rd party reader that can use logos books.  I would pay money for that.

Posts 201
Garrett Ho | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 9:42 PM

John:
What we need is a 3rd party reader that can use logos books.  I would pay money for that

This must be exaggeration, because you can use Logos software as a reader. Otherwise, you're offering to pay for something that is already free, perhaps because you're upset over a purchase you didn't need to make. You could've downloaded the L4 engine without the crossgrade, if you just wanted to view your books. You could probably still return it, if you want.

Posts 2867
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 10:23 PM

John:

Your statement that they "take previous purchases into account" is a lie. If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone recently with sales reps who finally told me that it simply was not possible to give me any discount when upgrading to a higher "scholars library" which contained hundreds of books (mostly nelson titles) which I had already purchased. Charging a customer twice for the same item might make money for the company but it isnt doing anything to keep customers.

 

No, sir. You are mistaken. It does not matter where you bought the resources, Logos has them credited to you in your license, and if they are part of the upgrade package, you get credit.  

That is a fact. I have been a customer of Logos for 18 years now, and I have never paid twice for a book, or seen a more ethical company.

Of course, you have every right to decide Logos is not right for you. I wish you well, brother. I respect your opinion, but this is mine.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 10:38 PM

Michael Childs:

 

Your statement that they "take previous purchases into account" is a lie. If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone recently with sales reps who finally told me that it simply was not possible to give me any discount when upgrading to a higher "scholars library" which contained hundreds of books (mostly nelson titles) which I had already purchased. Charging a customer twice for the same item might make money for the company but it isnt doin

 

No, sir. You are mistaken. It does not matter where you bought the resources, Logos has them credited to you in your license, and if they are part of the upgrade package, you get credit. That is a fact. I have been a customer of Logos for 18 years now, and I have never paid twice for a book, or seen a more ethical company. Of course, you have very right to decide Logos is not right for you. I wish you well, brother. I respect your opinion, but this is mine.

 You and several others on the forum keep repeating the same thing. That does not make it true.

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

I see no point discussing the ethics of a company that is defended as "christian", yet whos main objective is to profit from selling at a retail price theological works it did not author to christians who can ill afford to pay. nothing ethical to discuss.

Posts 8985
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:16 PM

John:

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

If you visit http://www.logos.com/upgrade, you should see an upgrade price to Bronze that is under $370. The regular price of Bronze is $629.95. This indicates to me that you are getting credit for the resources you already own in Scholar's Library. Perhaps the salesperson just misunderstood you? Note that a significant number of titles in Bronze (which is roughly the equivalent of the old Scholar's Libraries) are new, and so the upgrade price is high because it includes all these new resources. Starter will be cheaper (because it contains fewer resources and datasets), but still gets you to Logos 5. Or, as other posters have commented, the Logos 5 engine will be available for free download starting next year.

 

Posts 8985
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:22 PM

John:

Your statement that they "take previous purchases into account" is a lie. If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone recently with sales reps who finally told me that it simply was not possible to give me any discount when upgrading to a higher "scholars library" which contained hundreds of books (mostly nelson titles) which I had already purchased. Charging a customer twice for the same item might make money for the company but it isnt doing anything to keep customers.

If you purchase directly from logos.com, then our servers know about your purchase and you will be credited for it. (See my previous post.)

If you purchased items at a Christian bookstore, then our servers may not have associated that purchase with your logos.com account. This would depend on a) your Libronix ID being associated with your logos.com account, and b) running Synchronize Licenses in LDLS3 to upload your licenses to our servers.

A quick test is to visit http://www.logos.com/upgrade, select a package, and check the "New to you" column. If resources are showing up as "New to you", even though you actually own them, it's likely that your accounts aren't linked properly on our servers. Please call our Customer Service department, and they can quickly link your accounts together so that you get credit for all your past purchases--whether at logos.com or not.

Posts 30941
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:23 PM

John:
FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

I don't know where the miscommunication happened but what you describe is NOT Logos policy. Call again - I doubt that you'll get the same misinformation a second time.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:32 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

John:

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

If you visit http://www.logos.com/upgrade, you should see an upgrade price to Bronze that is under $370. The regular price of Bronze is $629.95. This indicates to me that you are getting credit for the resources you already own in Scholar's Library. Perhaps the salesperson just misunderstood you? Note that a significant number of titles in Bronze (which is roughly the equivalent of the old Scholar's Libraries) are new, and so the upgrade price is high because it includes all these new resources. Starter will be cheaper (because it contains fewer resources and datasets), but still gets you to Logos 5. Or, as other posters have commented, the Logos 5 engine will be available for free download starting next year.

 

been there. done that.,discussed,it on the phone several times. what you and others cannot seem to understand is that i already own most of those titles. yet i was going to have to pay for them AGAIN in order to upgrade. you only get credit for logos packages. not retail boxes purchased in the past. the discount you speak of is only from one logos package to another. other titles i purchased which are now in the package were not credited in any way. you dont see any logos people jumping into this thread to make me a great offer do,you? because they cannot and will not. i would upgrade my scholars library package if i did not already own half the new titles in it, ormif i was offered a fair deal without paying twice for the same titles.

 

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:35 PM

MJ. Smith:

John:
FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

I don't know where the miscommunication happened but what you describe is NOT Logos policy. Call again - I doubt that you'll get the same misinformation a second time.

already called, more than a few times. maybe those on here insisting i am wrong should call. i am not going to keep responding to people who think they know the policy, butnhave not had to deal with it.

 

Posts 2261
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:39 PM

John:
y. you dont see any logos people jumping into this thread to make me a great offer do,you? because they cannot and will not. i would upgrade my scholars library package if i did not already own half the new titles in it, ormif i was offered a fair deal without paying twice for the same titles.

Bradley IS a Logos employee who is asking you to call so that they can make sure all your licenses are synchronized so they can do what you are asking

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 2261
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:47 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

. Please call our Customer Service department, and they can quickly link your accounts together so that you get credit for all your past purchases--whether at logos.com or not.

Notice the blue icon under his user picture which identifies him as an employee

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 2751
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2012 11:57 PM

John:
not retail boxes purchased in the past.

No one is diputing your ownership AFAIK

As Bradley says:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
If you purchased items at a Christian bookstore, then our servers may not have associated that purchase with your logos.com account. This would depend on a) your Libronix ID being associated with your logos.com account, and b) running Synchronize Licenses in LDLS3 to upload your licenses to our servers

This is why he is asking  you to ensure your logos3 accounts are synced, and to re contact to ensure all your products have been accounted for

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 12:53 AM

It is reasonable to communicate directly with Logos for a more detailed discussion of what is or is not being credited from one upgrade to another.  Yet this whole morality discussion misses one of the major issues (at least for me) is the increasing cost for a "free" engine that only works with all the extras built on top of it that are not free.  This seems at least deceptive to me and speaks to a larger issue with Logos and it pricing structure especially as the premier publisher of Christian electronic resources who holds a monopoly in the market.  Well if they don't want to publish works by seminal Christians such as Tillich that is just too bad..you know get over it.  Advertise me to death and charge exorbitant prices for essentially nonfunctional free upgrades well that is just, you know, business. 

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 1:07 AM

Hi Rene,

Out of interest, where have you obtained this information,

Rene Atchley:
  Yet this whole morality discussion misses one of the major issues (at least for me) is the increasing cost for a "free" engine that only works with all the extras built on top of it that are not free.

Rene Atchley:
Advertise me to death and charge exorbitant prices for essentially nonfunctional free upgrades well that is just, you know, business.

I presume that you are referring to the free engine (which is not yet released). Have you obtained an advanced copy of the free engine? 

The reason I ask is that your statements (above) are at odds with the information released by Logos. Moreover, your statement is at odds with my own personal experience. While Beta testing, my Beta license inadvertently expired (leaving me, in effect, with the free engine) and I discovered that I was, in fact, able to access the functionality available in L4. 

What I was unable to access was the new resources and data sets unique to L5 and for which I had not paid (which would have been an unreasonable expectation in any regard).

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 1:11 AM

Indeed I could be wrong as usual.  The "free engine" without data sets is what?

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