Biblical Languages Package

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Posts 135
Abram K-J | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 16 2013 2:20 PM

Wow... I just called sales and was surprised at how much the rep was pushing me to buy the Biblical Languages package. (I had called to ask about it specifically.) I have it in L4, and have L5 already (with Silver, then Gold). I didn't give him account info, but with the package info I gave him he told me it was $166.47, down from $500 (for if it were new and not an upgrade) or so.

I asked him what was in it--I had briefly looked at the list someone posted on a forum here, but wanted to be sure--and he didn't have access to its contents. It's a "secret package," so he couldn't tell me what it contained.

But then he still pushed several times for me to buy it. He talked about not knowing what was in it as "the only reason" I wasn't going to buy, as if that's a small thing... I said, "That's pretty fundamental..." and he said, "That's why I'm asking you to fundamentally trust me on this." Yikes.

He did say there's a 30-day money back guarantee, and that I could buy it to see its contents, then return it if unsatisfied, but...isn't it just easier for Logos to get a list of this somewhere that all sales reps can have? Sure I trust Logos enough, but what if the new package has great resources but ones a particular user won't use?

He started a sentence saying, "In my 19 years at Logos," but this did not sound like someone who had been doing sales for 19 years.

Not here to vent--well, maybe in part. It's too bad you have to call sales about this package, so if you do, just be ready for a possible push like that. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume this guy isn't representative of all the sales reps--I hope he's not.

But I did also want to post the pricing info, which is likely unique to me, but could be helpful for others considering the package. I hadn't seen it anywhere on the forums yet.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 16 2013 4:27 PM

I think I've heard the package mentioned as an academic only product. But your description of the sales call seems a bit bizarre. I hope others don't have a similar experience.

Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 135
Abram K-J | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 17 2013 8:34 AM

Yes, academic only is correct (the sales rep noted that to me, too).

Is there a separate "academic sales" department? If so, perhaps that would be the place to call to inquire further about that package.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 17 2013 9:01 AM

Abram K-J:
Is there a separate "academic sales" department? If so, perhaps that would be the place to call to inquire further about that package.

Yes - there are separate phone numbers and email addresses for academic sales shown at http://www.logos.com/contact

 

Posts 135
Abram K-J | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 17 2013 9:06 AM

Wishing now he'd forwarded me on to them... perhaps after a while I'll call again, over to academic sales this time. Thanks for the info, Graham.

Posts 456
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 8:57 AM

Well, this issue really perplexes me to be honest.  There must be many potential customers like me, especially now that Perseus (and the like) has been drawing a new market segment to Logos.  There must be many people like me who want to spend money and jump on board, but just as easily fall through the proverbial cracks due to a (perceived?) lack of fit with the currently available packages. 

I am a Catholic layman who is also a full-time, independent, unaffiliated scholar in Classical languages who, in the next few years, shall be pursuing a DPhil; and who wants to continue to read Classics (in Latin and Ancient Greek, not translations), as well as branch into Koine NT as well as the Latin Vulgate, early Church Fathers, medieval Latin theology, etc.

I've been looking at purchasing "Verbum Capstone". However, when I think about how I'm actually going to use it, there’s an awful lot in Capstone that I’m really not going to use. Of course, I understand there will always be some resources you won't use in a "package"; on the other hand, there are limits to this. It seems unreasonable to pay for something where I won't be using more than 75% of the resources.  And that's being optimistic.

For example, I already own pretty much all of the english language material (Chesterton, Newman, etc.) Indeed, I have an enormous library of books - each of which I individually cherish; and they are all lovingly marked up, and are part of me. And even if I don't currently own a particular volume, unless I absolutely have to for some reason, there’s simply no way I will sit around reading an English-language book on my computer. I'd simply rather purchase a nice old copy and mark it up by hand. Nor do I care about being able to search these resources. I can already do that in my own mind. :)

Nor am I interested in translations of any kind. Moreover, I can obtain the encyclicals and all the Church documents for free. They are literally everywhere. And I already have many of them. And, again, I don't care for the ability to search them.  (Of course, I understand that it's not these resources that are driving the price of Capstone, etc.) Nor do I have any need for lectionaries or sermon/ministry/counseling material, or Church planning, etc.

And so on.....I am not a pastor, a minister, or a Priest.

The Noet project will surely draw more people like me to Logos; and yet, the Noet packages are mostly translations? On the other hand, if I were to purchase one of the less expensive Verbum packages, the percentage of useful to not-useful resources only rapidly worsens.

So…what am I actually looking for? Any package that best includes, comprehensively, and without a lot of non-language based/focused, nor translated, material:

• Original Language, tagged Bibles (NT, OT, Latin, Koine, etc.)
• Original Language Grammars and tools
• Original Language lexicons and word studies, especially the BDAG (I already own the LSJ and the Middle Liddle, so I may be paying for those again.)

I supppose I could add these a la carte:

• Aquinas Latin works & Lexicon
• Augustine Latin works

I’ll add when they are produced:

• Lewis & Short when it comes;
• The entire Loeb Latin & Greek Classics;
• The Patrologiae Cursus Completus, both the Latin & Greek
• And a ton of other stuff on my wishlist, etc.

In short, I am really surprised that there is no comprehensive Original Language Package.  There must be many people like me who really want to focus pretty much exclusively on original language study? What do they end up doing?

I'm willing to pay good money.  My paying that money benefits all Logos customers because I will evangelize it like nobody's business in my own Classics community; and every dollar that comes in to Logos means that everyone else gets a better product. 

My wallet is open.  What, exactly, is the problem? 

Rant.  Over.  

Cheers, 

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 6156
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:09 AM

Given that your wallet is open, 'have at it'!  As far as I know, Logos will let you buy most anything you need.

Presumably what you really want is a major discount?  The problem with this is that the older OL package was thin, just to stay affordable. I replaced most of its resources. The current academic OL is somewhat better but major strings attached, even if a student. Good resources have serious royalties.

Better to attend DTS and get a seriously good package from Daddy Warbucks.

 


Posts 8805
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:14 AM

Butters:

So…what am I actually looking for? Any package that best includes, comprehensively, and without a lot of non-language based/focused, nor translated, material:

• Original Language, tagged Bibles (NT, OT, Latin, Koine, etc.) • Original Language Grammars and tools • Original Language lexicons and word studies, especially the BDAG (I already own the LSJ and the Middle Liddle, so I may be paying for those again.)

I supppose I could add these a la carte:

• Aquinas Latin works & Lexicon • Augustine Latin works

I’ll add when they are produced:

• Lewis & Short when it comes; • The entire Loeb Latin & Greek Classics; • The Patrologiae Cursus Completus, both the Latin & Greek • And a ton of other stuff on my wishlist, etc.

In short, I am really surprised that there is no comprehensive Original Language Package.  There must be many people like me who really want to focus pretty much exclusively on original language study? What do they end up doing?

I'm willing to pay good money.  My paying that money benefits all Logos customers because I will evangelize it like nobody's business in my own Classics community; and every dollar that comes in to Logos means that everyone else gets a better product. 

Before the institution of the new packages there used to be an Original Languages package which I purchased.  Unfortunately, even with that title there were many resources which I will never use.  I later "upgraded" to the "Scholars" package since I could get certain resources I wanted more cheaply than if I were to purchase them separately.  While it may go somewhat against the grain to purchase resources and then basically throw them away, it is possible to "hide" unwanted items (You can recover them if you later desire to use them).  I would recommend purchasing resources on Pre-Publication and Community Pricing in order to get them more inexpensively. 

I'm pleased to hear that you are willing to spend good money since I would be sad to hear that someone was using counterfeit funds.  Wink  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8805
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:15 AM

Denise:

Given that your wallet is open, 'have at it'!  As far as I know, Logos will let you buy most anything you need.

Presumably what you really want is a major discount?  The problem with this is that the older OL package was thin, just to stay affordable. I replaced most of its resources. The current academic OL is somewhat better but major strings attached, even if a student. Good resources have serious royalties.

Better to attend DTS and get a seriously good package from Daddy Warbucks.

 

I repeat that gospel line "Can anything good come out of Dallas?" 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 456
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:22 AM

Hah, hi Denise!  Yeah, well I suppose I should have said:  "Wallet open, but thrift knows limits"  Big Smile

Yeah, I see what you're saying and do understand.  Maybe there's a happy medium between a too-thin package and something that requires a 2nd mortgage to cover royalties?  

I don't know - this may well be much more complicated from Logos' point of view than I have been imagining.  

Cheers,

~Butters Smile 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 456
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:24 AM

Thanks George!

George Somsel:
I'm pleased to hear that you are willing to spend good money since I would be sad to hear that someone was using counterfeit funds.  Wink  Big Smile

LOL!  Yes, be wary of peeps who approach you referring to their "good money."  Just the sort of think a rank counterfeiter might say.  Big Smile

~Butters 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 8805
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:47 AM

Butters:

Thanks George!

George Somsel:
I'm pleased to hear that you are willing to spend good money since I would be sad to hear that someone was using counterfeit funds.  Wink  Big Smile

LOL!  Yes, be wary of peeps who approach you referring to their "good money."  Just the sort of think a rank counterfeiter might say.  Big Smile

~Butters 

I note that you perceived that I was joking; however, in keeping with your comment I would note one of my pet peeves—people who say "To tell you the truth …"  I always wonder what they have been telling me up to that point (and whether it really is the truth).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8376
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:55 AM

George Somsel:
I would note one of my pet peeves—people who say "To tell you the truth …"  I always wonder what they have been telling me up to that point (and whether it really is the truth).

Perhaps, like Jack Nicholson, they do not think you can handle the truth Big Smile.

Posts 7021
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Super.Tramp | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 10:51 AM

tom:
I am also wondering how knowing the The Plants of the Bible is going to help with the Greek text?

Maybe not with the Greek text, but it helps if you are reading Exodus 25:10 in the KJV. When your classroom giggles or blushes you tell them it is Acacia wood. Embarrassed

...

Posts 456
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 10:53 AM

George Somsel:

Butters:

Thanks George!

George Somsel:
I'm pleased to hear that you are willing to spend good money since I would be sad to hear that someone was using counterfeit funds.  Wink  Big Smile

LOL!  Yes, be wary of peeps who approach you referring to their "good money."  Just the sort of think a rank counterfeiter might say.  Big Smile

~Butters 

I note that you perceived that I was joking; however, in keeping with your comment I would note one of my pet peeves—people who say "To tell you the truth …"  I always wonder what they have been telling me up to that point (and whether it really is the truth).

Hah!  

Well, George, rhetoric, or turns of phrases, like that often signal something important actually.  In the case of the phrase "to the tell the truth" or "to be honest" - it's generally conveying, "I'm going to be a wee bit more direct now."

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 8805
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 11:11 AM

Butters:
Well, George, rhetoric, or turns of phrases, like that often signal something important actually.  In the case of the phrase "to the tell the truth" or "to be honest" - it's generally conveying, "I'm going to be a wee bit more direct now."

"Not to mention …"  Well, I can't say it, can I?  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 456
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 11:45 AM

George Somsel:

Butters:
Well, George, rhetoric, or turns of phrases, like that often signal something important actually.  In the case of the phrase "to the tell the truth" or "to be honest" - it's generally conveying, "I'm going to be a wee bit more direct now."

"Not to mention …"  Well, I can't say it, can I?  Big Smile

I find these sorts of things very interesting actually; and I gather from your previous posts on this sort of thing that you do as well.  Smile  Like you, I'm always on the look out for faux precision, vagueness, empty modifiers, etc.   

However, I would say that "not to mention" does indeed have a rhetorical, idiomatic function though.  It is very similar to, but of course not in identity with, the English phrase "much less."

So let's take:  "I truly love her for her courage, not to mention her beauty."  

Now, if you read that literally, it doesn't really make a lot of sense.  However, that's true with a great deal of English; it's a very un-literal language, especially compared to, say, French.  Personally I love this about English.  It is also why teaching English can be so difficult.    

Have you ever read Stephen Boothe's Precious Nonsense?  He is a Shakespeare scholar and in this book he looks at language we consider to be coherent:  such as, the Gettysburg Address, parts of Twelfth Night, etc., and he shows how on a literal level they are an absolute mess.  And yet they convey a great deal of meaning.  There is a great deal in language than is mysterious. 

So then what does that sentence above mean?  It seems to me that many shades of meaning hover around it; however, I would take the primary meaning as:

"I love her for her courage alone

- and moreover, I would love her for her courage alone -

and yet, the fact of her beauty makes me love her even more,

if that were possible." 

See?  All that from a simple "not to mention."  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 8805
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 12:05 PM

Butters:
See?  All that from a simple "not to mention."  

I'm not quite to literalistic as to be unable to understand what is being meant by some of these phrases, but I do find them very entertaining since they give the appearance of meaninglessness (or of meaning the opposite of what they appear to mean).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 456
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 12:10 PM

George Somsel:

Butters:
See?  All that from a simple "not to mention."  

I'm not quite to literalistic as to be unable to understand what is being meant by some of these phrases, but I do find them very entertaining since they give the appearance of meaninglessness (or of meaning the opposite of what they appear to mean).

Yes, I know exactly what you mean George.  Actually, after all, maybe I took your posts too literally!  Big Smile

Anyway, that Stephen Booth book is fascinating.  I imagine it's just the sort of thing you'd like.  http://www.amazon.com/Precious-Nonsense-Gettysburg-Epitaphs-Children/dp/0520212886/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378148956&sr=8-1&keywords=precious+nonsense

Mr. Booth and I have had very long email conversations; he seems brilliant.  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 8805
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 12:25 PM

Butters:

Anyway, that Stephen Booth book is fascinating.  I imagine it's just the sort of thing you'd like.  http://www.amazon.com/Precious-Nonsense-Gettysburg-Epitaphs-Children/dp/0520212886/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378148956&sr=8-1&keywords=precious+nonsense

Mr. Booth and I have had very long email conversations; he seems brilliant.  

Any relation to John Wilkes?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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