New Feature in Logos 5: Popular Highlights

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This post has 170 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 195
Dan Pogue | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 6:12 PM
Dave Hooton: There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.
Oh yeah, I get distracted enough and too easily!!  Tongue Tied danp
Posts 2166
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 6:35 AM

Bob had a great answer and wonderful points.   Nobody's privacy is being invaded, nobody is giving up anything.  People are so crazy over "privacy" to the point that is unhealthy.  By the way, do you realize you won't find the "Right to Privacy" anywhere in the Constitution (for those of us in the States)?  We have just been told that is what we deserve and we think it applies to everything everywhere.

Now we are talking about highlights for goodness sake.  A Highlight!  What is so personal about a highlight that is so terrible for everyone to see that not only you, but 5, 10, 100 other people found the same thing to be helpful?  This argument about "personal data" and "Permission" has gone too far.  If you sync you give them your data and thus permission to use it the way I see it.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband, Lover of Baseball!

Psalm 34:18

Posts 8698
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 7:34 AM

David ... you will soon have an interesting future.  Poor Dominick can't delete his prayers; they now belong to Logos.  It's really theologically amusing.  Someone should write a new paper on this, it's so interesting (and devoid of Christianity).


Posts 2166
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 7:40 AM

Once again, if you don't want someone to have your info, don't give it to them.  It is that simple.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband, Lover of Baseball!

Psalm 34:18

Posts 2166
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 7:44 AM

By the way, from the EULA:

"but may examine it programmatically for anonymous statistical purposes"  Popular highlights should fall under this provision.  End of story.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband, Lover of Baseball!

Psalm 34:18

Posts 8698
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 7:51 AM

David ... I do exactly that. I use Libronix for all personal data.  I saw this train leaving the station 3 years ago. And 'by the way' Bob's not done with your data. You will soon see more. Enjoy the ride.


Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 8:48 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
However, if getting this info is slowing the performance of Logos on my computer , then I would ask a "rethink" until Logos has dealt with more of the speed memory leak issues.

Yes

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 756
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 8:51 AM

To all: You may, or may not, already know this but: Just about everything you have ever "posted" on the internet is still there. If you do a search by your name, your "handle" , your initials etc. you may be pretty shocked at what you find.

The internet is not a private place, our conversations become part of the digital domain just as our browsing habits do. 

I am concerned about information gathering as much as the next guy, however, I also understand that internet and privacy are not things that go together well.

In a couple of years, I will still be able to do a search and find this very conversation come up in those search results.

Blessings

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 8:58 AM

Bob Pritchett:
Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.

Hi Bob

I think a big part of the problem here is that you are releasing these 'Community' and other Features and then taking feedback while defending the implementation. I appreciate that you want to develop the software and that you can't please everyone but knowing what a touchy bunch we can be it might make sense to get some feedback on some of the ideas a bit earlier. I know that you prefer to avoid a roadmap but a better indication of what might be coming in the next couple of updates would get some of these conversations started earlier and might make them a little less adversarial.

 

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 757
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 9:07 AM

Bob Pritchett:

You can opt out, by running the software without an Internet connection. But it sounds like you're really asking for is the ability to opt-out at a more fine-grained level: you want this Internet-enabled function, but not that one.

[...]

Bob thank you for taking the time and effort to reply and address users' concerns.

I have been looking at this thread recently and would like to comment generally, and then specifically to some points you raise.

Firstly, I would not (meaning you should not) equate/associate Logos with companies like Google — seriously. Google, and companies like it, do not have the same ethics and foundation as (I hope/trust) Logos has. To companies like Google you and I are not their customers, but their product. I don't say this to 'Google bash' but to address the reality that they don't really care, directly, about the people who use Google search or whatever, they provide a service to get information on people, which they then sell to their real customers — advertisers. To that end they will, wherever they can, enrich themselves by finding out as much as possible about their 'product', and will push what is permissible under the law, and what is ethical, unless someone else pushes back.

Of course we all realise that Logos also is a business, but we hope and trust that it is guided by an extra dimension to other companies — giving glory to our Lord — and is not solely driven by commercial realities and that we are your customers.

Having put that on the table — looking at some specific points:

  1. Making a statement like "You can opt out, by running the software without an Internet connection" is, really, ill-advised and actually is not practical. Especially now, given the design of Logos 5, an Internet connection is a hard necessity. I say ill-advised because if someone at Logos gives that advice and a user turns off 'Use Internet' in preferences that would mean (I believe) that their information is not being backed up/synced. What would happen, their reaction be, if/when they wanted to get that data only to be told that it did not exist because their use Internet setting was turned off. Can we agree that it was a mistake to state this.
  2. Regarding "Google [...] the data they report to advertisers on impressions vs. clicks, etc." the big difference is between anonymous data versus personally identifiable data. What Google (and all companies like it) want is personally identifiable data. They want to know that YOU specifically are looking at, for example, that new car versus being able to say generally that 20% of people in city "A" versus 60% in city "B" are looking at that new car. They really want to know that — very badly. So badly that they are willing to sail close to the wind of breaking the law to do so. And we're talking about the law, let's forget about the morality of what they are doing.
  3. On the point of "Other than a "don't track me!" instinct (I have it too!), what is the actual harm of this collective data mining?" well that can be a subjective question. What is more important than this question, and which is the basis of the 'gut reaction' some people are having in this thread, is the fact that it appears that there was no notification that this personal (personal, because it is personal before it becomes collective) data mining was being done. If I am mistaken in this understanding then I am happy to be corrected.
  4. Regarding (directly identifiable) data retention, the issue with the Internet is that data never goes away — as many people find out to their dismay. It is so much an issue that Eric Schmidt (who, personally, I react strongly to) the former CEO of Google actually said once, in public, that people should be allowed to change their names to distance themselves from things they have done in the past (and which Google has recorded no doubt). So, given that information on the Internet is like a Pandora's box (once it's out there it's hard to put it back) some of us prefer not to, as much as possible, not to 'open that box' in the first place.

So what to do moving forward? You will note that I have not said anything yet about the value of the popular highlights and other new 'social sharing' features of Logos 5. Without judging the benefit of these options, and in certain areas I can see their value, what I personally would see as being the best way to address this is:

  1. Separate the functionality of the new 'social' features from both the (necessary) Internet connection features of Logos (syncing, downloading etc.) and the 'Send Feedback' feature for sending back information about usage of the application. I have my 'Send Feedback' set to Anonymous — happy to help Logos improve the software.
  2. Make an option in Preferences along the lines of 'Use Social Features'. Some people don't want to see any of the social features — they're simply not interested and they find it detracts from using the software as a tool for Bible study.
  3. Make an option in Preferences like 'Share Information for Social Features'. Now... some people might say "if you don't want to share information then you shouldn't expect to get the benefit of shared information, it's not fair" and that could be a valid position to take. It should be discussed with users.

I trust this can help in supporting some clear discussion on this point.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 9:15 AM

David Taylor Jr:
Once again, if you don't want someone to have your info, don't give it to them.  It is that simple.

But we don't have a choice. If I highlight a passage in a book the data is synchronised and can be analysed. To avoid this I either cripple the program with Internet Off or stop using highlighting. The new community model is a long way from the paradigm that I originally bought into which was simply having my books on my computer. I started using Logos because it was like real books only better. If I highlight passages in a real book on my bookshelf you can only see them if I loan the book to you this leaves me in control of the sharing process. The Logos program that I originally purchased had the same paradigm only I had to loan you my computer with my software installation.

Like Mark, I am not actually bothered about Logos analysing this data, my issue is the way that the data is being used, at least I can, and have, turn off popular highlights now I'm waiting for the same courtesy for the community ratings. Ultimately I want to be able to configure ALL of these display features off with a single setting, they do not interest me and I do not want them. 

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 9:18 AM

David Mitchell:
"Popular" is relative to the number of highlights made in the book itself. It varies from resource to resource, although we do have an absolute minimum threshold in place.

Perhaps I am doing something wrong....I am running Logos 5.0a SR and I do not see this option.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

Posts 18436
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 9:22 AM

Pastor Michael Huffman:

David Mitchell:
"Popular" is relative to the number of highlights made in the book itself. It varies from resource to resource, although we do have an absolute minimum threshold in place.

Perhaps I am doing something wrong....I am running Logos 5.0a SR and I do not see this option.

It is not currently available in Bibles - do you see it in non-Bible resources?

 

Posts 1342
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 9:50 AM

Patrick S.:
  • Separate the functionality of the new 'social' features from both the (necessary) Internet connection features of Logos (syncing, downloading etc.) and the 'Send Feedback' feature for sending back information about usage of the application. I have my 'Send Feedback' set to Anonymous — happy to help Logos improve the software.
  • Make an option in Preferences along the lines of 'Use Social Features'. Some people don't want to see any of the social features — they're simply not interested and they find it detracts from using the software as a tool for Bible study.
  • Make an option in Preferences like 'Share Information for Social Features'. Now... some people might say "if you don't want to share information then you shouldn't expect to get the benefit of shared information, it's not fair" and that could be a valid position to take. It should be discussed with users.
  • Yes

    Posts 634
    Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 10:09 AM

    Graham Criddle:

    Pastor Michael Huffman:

    David Mitchell:
    "Popular" is relative to the number of highlights made in the book itself. It varies from resource to resource, although we do have an absolute minimum threshold in place.

    Perhaps I am doing something wrong....I am running Logos 5.0a SR and I do not see this option.

    It is not currently available in Bibles - do you see it in non-Bible resources?

     

    I do not Graham

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

    Posts 2166
    David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 10:14 AM

    Graham Owen:

    David Taylor Jr:
    Once again, if you don't want someone to have your info, don't give it to them.  It is that simple.

    But we don't have a choice. If I highlight a passage in a book the data is synchronised and can be analysed. To avoid this I either cripple the program with Internet Off or stop using highlighting. The new community model is a long way from the paradigm that I originally bought into which was simply having my books on my computer. I started using Logos because it was like real books only better. If I highlight passages in a real book on my bookshelf you can only see them if I loan the book to you this leaves me in control of the sharing process. The Logos program that I originally purchased had the same paradigm only I had to loan you my computer with my software installation.

    Like Mark, I am not actually bothered about Logos analysing this data, my issue is the way that the data is being used, at least I can, and have, turn off popular highlights now I'm waiting for the same courtesy for the community ratings. Ultimately I want to be able to configure ALL of these display features off with a single setting, they do not interest me and I do not want them. 

    Logos has been forward about their data mining since the EULA of L4.  This is why I don't understand the outcry.  They told all of us they were doing it, most of us just didn't care to read it.

     

    Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband, Lover of Baseball!

    Psalm 34:18

    Posts 1342
    Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 10:20 AM

    Bob Pritchett:
    Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.

    YesYes

    Posts 8698
    Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 10:33 AM

    People keep pointing to the EULA as if it has some significance. When the investment (your books) only works with the company's software, then the EULA is simply fluff.   You'll use whatever the company wishes.  Our overseas Logos-users quietly swallowed the EULA-pill with Logos4. Even those in the deep dark jungles of Africa.


    Posts 1873
    Forum MVP
    Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 10:40 AM

    Patrick S.:
    Some people don't want to see any of the social features — they're simply not interested and they find it detracts from using the software as a tool for Bible study.

    That's me!

    iMac Retina 5K, 27": 4GHz; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.12.2; 1TB FD; Logos 7

    MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.12.2; 256GB SSD; Logos 7

    iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 10.2

    iPhone 5s 32GB iOS 10.2

    Posts 2166
    David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 10:41 AM

    Alan Macgregor:

    Patrick S.:
    Some people don't want to see any of the social features — they're simply not interested and they find it detracts from using the software as a tool for Bible study.

    That's me!

    Then turn them off. Wink

    Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband, Lover of Baseball!

    Psalm 34:18

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