Let's hear it for Weights and Measures

Of all of the functions they included in L4 and L5, they left out a very important one – Weights and Measures. How are we supposed to understand how far 1500 stades would be or how large a quantity an ephah would constitute without a way to convert to modern measurements. The metric system may be easier in some respects, but, when it comes to understanding the practical significance of their measurements, I have to convert kilometers to miles, liters to gallons and degrees Celsius to degrees Fahrenheit or they mean nothing. It is the same with biblical weights and measures.

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Comments

Keith Larson

I agree. I have missed this old L3 tool.

Mark Smith

George you are the squeaky wheel on this one, but I agree with you. I miss the function.

Logos, how about it?

Otis Gouty

For sure, a helpful and needed resource.

William

A conversion tool for biblical measures would certainly be nice. Being an ex mathematics teacher I rather hate the american standard of measure as opposed to system international. George, I certainly hope that you are exaggerating when you say they mean "nothing." Due to our ____________ the metric system has certainly lost some power here in the states. At least I-10 south of Tucson AZ still has metric but I have heard rumor they will spend a few million changing the signs back even if they have much better ways to spend that money.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434327#Comment_434327

A conversion tool for biblical measures would certainly be nice. Being an ex mathematics teacher I rather hate the american standard of measure as opposed to system international. George, I certainly hope that you are exaggerating when you say they mean "nothing." Due to our ____________ the metric system has certainly lost some power here in the states. At least I-10 south of Tucson AZ still has metric but I have heard rumor they will spend a few million changing the signs back even if they have much better ways to spend that money.

I'm glad to hear that they'll be changing back to God's measurement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw

Dean J. Ferguson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434319#Comment_434319

It would be nice to have the weights and measurements handy in Logos 5. Is this the beginning of a worldwide groundswell seeking the return of an old reliable tool? Perhaps they could take it out of mothballs and give it a new look (something suitable to fit the appropriate color schemes). I would join the parade to ask Logos to bring the weights and measurements back.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434350#Comment_434350

I would just like to throw my support behind this suggestion as well!

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434360#Comment_434360

I just assumed it was there. I agree, it should be incorporated in L5.

DMB

Wow, this is really great. So MANY people liking Libronix (the best software ever written, of course).

Oh wait ... you mean you want earlier highly used features 'moved' to the new version. How do we 'know' they were were used?? Maybe all 10 users are on this thread. True?

I think it's interesting that Bob's excuse still isn't successfully holding water. 3 years later and counting, the feature still works great even without his updating.

It's really kind of funny because he spent a small fortune on 'Bible Facts' ... at least you can look at the pictures ... that should work?

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434388#Comment_434388

It's really kind of funny because he spent a small fortune on 'Bible Facts' ... at least you can look at the pictures ... that should work?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. A stade is defined as 1/8th of a mile which is fine. If, however, you enter "ephah", it tells you that an ephah is the dry measure equivalent of a "bath." When you look at "bath", it says "the base unit for measuring liquid volume" – a bit circular, no? not overly informative. Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking that it had defined the liquid measure in terms of the dry measure.

Bob Pritchett

Most Bibles seems to have modern measurement equivalents either in the text, or in footnotes to the verses with the measurements.

Is your primary interest converting between metric/imperial measures, or understanding Biblical references to measurement?

Our concern with the calculator was the imprecision (or rather, false sense of precision that it gave, when working with imprecise equivalents -- sometimes with multiple, conflicting inputs).

Would a feature that showed modern equivalents for every Biblical measure, based on context, be enough, or do you really need a "type in the number" conversion tool? And if so, when do you need it -- when reading what resources?

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434429#Comment_434429

Most Bibles seems to have modern measurement equivalents either in the text, or in footnotes to the verses with the measurements.

Is your primary interest converting between metric/imperial measures, or understanding Biblical references to measurement?

Our concern with the calculator was the imprecision (or rather, false sense of precision that it gave, when working with imprecise equivalents -- sometimes with multiple, conflicting inputs).

Would a feature that showed modern equivalents for every Biblical measure, based on context, be enough, or do you really need a "type in the number" conversion tool? And if so, when do you need it -- when reading what resources?

My concern is not with converting one modern measurement to another since there are calculators for that. I am concerned with an approximate modern equivalent to the biblical measures and weights. Perhaps this would vary according to the time period in some cases. I would settle for a "bath = ~ gallons / liters" which would allow me to convert the quantity to that specified in the texts.

I had thought about including this originally, but posted negligently. Generally some research is needed to find the units in such resources as bible dictionaries which serves as an impediment to the flow of one's study. I'm too easily distracted by other information these articles might contain. [:$]

I should probably also note that Weights and Measures is about the only reason that I continue to have L3 on my computer.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434429#Comment_434429

For me this is a missing feature that Logos 4 & now 5 has failed to deliver. It needs to be about understanding biblical references to measurement. It needs to give metric & imperial approximations, recognizing that it is not always possible to get a precise conversion. It's not about having a scientifically precise conversion but something the user can relate to, to give a sense of perspective of size/ weight. The primary requirement would be accessing the data in context. Ideally it should be available from any resource using right click menu. This though would probably require tagging of all resources and so not reasonable to expect from Logos. A calculator seems like an easier way to integrate it into the software but not quite get us to the ideal of providing data in context. Open to suggestions on how.you perceive it could be best integrated Bob.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434452#Comment_434452

For me this is a missing feature that Logos 4 & now 5 has failed to deliver. It needs to be about understanding biblical references to measurement. It needs to give metric & imperial approximations, recognizing that it is not always possible to get a precise conversion. It's not about having a scientifically precise conversion but something the user can relate to, to give a sense of perspective of size/ weight. The primary requirement would be accessing the data in context. Ideally it should be available from any resource using right click menu. This though would probably require tagging of all resources and so not reasonable to expect from Logos. A calculator seems like an easier way to integrate it into the software but not quite get us to the ideal of providing data in context. Open to suggestions on how.you perceive it could be best integrated Bob.

Agreed.

Tes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434452#Comment_434452

For me this is a missing feature that Logos 4 & now 5 has failed to deliver. It needs to be about understanding biblical references to measurement. It needs to give metric & imperial approximations, recognizing that it is not always possible to get a precise conversion. It's not about having a scientifically precise conversion but something the user can relate to, to give a sense of perspective of size/ weight. The primary requirement would be accessing the data in context. Ideally it should be available from any resource using right click menu. This though would probably require tagging of all resources and so not reasonable to expect from Logos. A calculator seems like an easier way to integrate it into the software but not quite get us to the ideal of providing data in context. Open to suggestions on how.you perceive it could be best integrated Bob.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434452#Comment_434452

The primary requirement would be accessing the data in context.

Somewhere in the archives we have a spec for implementing this as a hard-coded list of pre-converted measures that show up in the Passage Guide or Information Panel based on your Bible reference. This would mean a one-time manual processing of all the weights/measures in the Bible, but if they are stored by verse then we don't have to do it for each translation.

But this wouldn't help if you were looking for conversions in other books besides the Bible. Is that the case?

(I think we didn't do this because A) we didn't get to it, and we realized that almost every modern Bible has this data as easily as a right click -- it's embedded in a footnote on the actual weight or measure. Just hover to see it, or look in the Information panel.)

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434553#Comment_434553

But this wouldn't help if you were looking for conversions in other books besides the Bible. Is that the case?

I think the Bible would be the primary way that I would use it.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434566#Comment_434566

Such a feature would be useful and applicable too in resources like dictionaries, atlases...

Just my 2.765 mites...

EmileB

Bob, thanks so much for responding to this!!! The lack of the weights and measures tool is really my one and only disappointment with L4 and L5. It just is very time consuming to try to hunt the needed information down from various resources when time is pressing for a lesson or sermon. I try to anticipate questions from my audience (and they really do ask), and I'm getting ready to go out the door and I'm printing my notes... and I find something like George is alluding to... uh, oh... how much is a "bath" in modern terms? Having the calculator was SO helpful, because I could VERY VERY quickly just plug in a number, and get some kind of approximation in modern terms that my congregation or class could grasp. Of course, it may not be TOTALLY scientifically precise... and that really isn't what people in my class are looking for... just a modern figure so that people can get their minds around what I'm telling them. Now, in L4 and 5, I really have to hunt for that information, and as Geotge says, very often, it comes in a form not terribly helpful... comparing one ancient measure to some other ancient measure that would still be obscure to people. Or often when I finally found an equivalent, it would be to something like British shillings from the 1800s... not at all very helpful. So not only is the search very time consuming, it often is unproductive or gives even less precise answers from a practical perspective.

That's why the calculator was so handy. I don't think hovering over a figure in every resource would really be as simple and as practical as just restoring the old calculator that was functional in Libronix. I think the former would be very difficult to tag/set up for you guys, and I doubt you could catch every reference and then calculate it for me... I can't imagine the amount of effort that would take. But it seems like it would really be simple to restore the calculator from a programming perspective... and I think it would provide a LOT more flexibility... For example.... I could plug in a figure as well from a hard copy book that Logos doesn't have and get a good answer. If you have something like a precalculated, hover type search as some have suggested, and no independent calculator, I'd still be stuck. My Bible research program can't easily and quickly help me with the type of info I need. So in my case at least, it would really be less useful to have the tool in a hover-only form. But an independent calculator like I had before would solve the problem. I really can type in a number myself ;-) .

Again, THANKS for listening to this.... this tool is really SUCH a useful one from a practical perspective for those who teach and preach. If there is any way to do so, PLEASE restore that feature.... even if you want to get fancier somehow later on.... if we could just have what we had before, it would help so much!

Wayne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434429#Comment_434429

Most Bibles seems to have modern measurement equivalents either in the text, or in footnotes to the verses with the measurements.

I don't own a study Bible. I depend on Logos for my information. I would think that a growing number of the Logos customers rarely use a print Bible.

Graham Criddle

Doesn't the information provided in the Information Tool cover this?

A couple of examples below:

I accept it is dependent on having a dictionary which provides the required information but at least it is readily accessible

Charlene

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434445#Comment_434445

My concern is not with converting one modern measurement to another since there are calculators for that. I am concerned with an approximate modern equivalent to the biblical measures and weights. Perhaps this would vary according to the time period in some cases. I would settle for a "bath = ~ gallons / liters" which would allow me to convert the quantity to that specified in the texts.

[Y]

Plus whenever I am teaching and I give the modern equivalent (which normally is found in the commentaries, not in the Bible text), I always say "Aproximately"...I know that it will not be "scientifically correct" but at least my students can relate to the size better.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434719#Comment_434719

Doesn't the information provided in the Information Tool cover this?

No. When I click on ephah, I get the explanation that the ephah is the dry equivalent of the bath then, when I click on bath, I get the explanation that the bath is the liquid equivalent of the ephah so we're just going in a circle.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434727#Comment_434727

Doesn't the information provided in the Information Tool cover this?

No. When I click on ephah, I get the explanation that the ephah is the dry equivalent of the bath then, when I click on bath, I get the explanation that the bath is the liquid equivalent of the ephah so we're just going in a circle.

Interesting - I get that the Bath is about 5 1/2 US gallons or 21 liters

So it will depend on dictionaries (available and prioritised) so probably isn't the right solution for a general purpose tool

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434731#Comment_434731

Personally I don't care (for obvious reasons, when you use the best software ever written of course). But whoever did the Libronix version really put their heart into it. I'm still amazed at its features and the thinking they used. I also like the 'People' in L3 better than L4 but I think L5 probably 'stole' some of L3's magic.

I didn't really understand the thinking that went into L3's measures until I was somewhere in the Ugarit resources and it was discussing the various shekels and the associated issues involved (weight/content). That's when it 'dawned' on me that the whole subject was a daily issue back then. And so 'the finger on the scales'.

I don't know George's reasons, but the whole area seems to reflect his depth of knowledge.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434553#Comment_434553

The primary requirement would be accessing the data in context.

Somewhere in the archives we have a spec for implementing this as a hard-coded list of pre-converted measures that show up in the Passage Guide or Information Panel based on your Bible reference. This would mean a one-time manual processing of all the weights/measures in the Bible, but if they are stored by verse then we don't have to do it for each translation.

But this wouldn't help if you were looking for conversions in other books besides the Bible. Is that the case?

(I think we didn't do this because A) we didn't get to it, and we realized that almost every modern Bible has this data as easily as a right click -- it's embedded in a footnote on the actual weight or measure. Just hover to see it, or look in the Information panel.)

Bob this would be a good start to have this level of information available. Would also want to see it in bible explorer. I am appreciating this little tool more these days as an alternative to a full blown passage guide.

But correct if we were reading another book besides the bible it would not help and this is where a lookup/calculator type tool would be very much needed. The flexibility of a calculator also comes into play as another poster pointed out when you realise you need the information and don't have the time to go through your resources, or run a passage guide to find the information. Pulling up the calculator and getting a quick ball park figure can be a great help in these sort of situaitons.

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434687#Comment_434687

I have a suggestion about a solid (and fun) way Logos could implement this. It could also lay the foundation for Logos to do something much more with it. Anyone want to hear it?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435565#Comment_435565

Now Nathan ... you know we want to hear your idea!

(Mine is just to add the measurements to the Bible Facts database with a prepared lookup. Seems pretty simple.)

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435565#Comment_435565

I have a suggestion about a solid (and fun) way Logos could implement this. It could also lay the foundation for Logos to do something much more with it. Anyone want to hear it?

I'll bite. What's your idea?

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435565#Comment_435565

I have a suggestion about a solid (and fun) way Logos could implement this. It could also lay the foundation for Logos to do something much more with it. Anyone want to hear it?

The suspense is killing us!

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435684#Comment_435684

I usually look at the footnotes like Bob suggested.

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435693#Comment_435693

I need to shoot a video for CCMag soon I'm long overdue on. I may shoot a video on it so I can show some visuals on how Logos can architect it.

I will drop a hint though...

How many of you would not only love to have your own personal research assistant that you have in Logos today...

but also

have your own personal Biblical scholar you could take with you wherever you go, answering any of your biblical questions from something as simple as weights and measures or Bible searches to answering your deepest Theological questions?

If you're ready to hear more, I'll prepare a small video on it.

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435991#Comment_435991

It's a little something I've been mulling over in my mind I'm ready to share with Logos. A way to truly take Bible study to a whole new level, and I think Logos would be the perfect company to pull it off.

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435992#Comment_435992

Please don't tell me your going to use Siri.....

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436289#Comment_436289

Please don't tell me your going to use Siri.....

Not exactly but you're close...

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436507#Comment_436507

Please don't tell me your going to use Siri.....

Not exactly but you're close...

My interest is sparked...

Michael Kinch

I use the New Living Translation for this purpose. It has put most measurements in modern terms. I don't use it for a study bible but it is nice for devotional use or when I want to check on measurements.

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436578#Comment_436578

Please don't tell me your going to use Siri.....

Not exactly but you're close...

My interest is sparked...

I just remembered I need to respond to this. :-) I'll try to do that when I have a chance.

There's another side way this could also be implemented. Not the way I was originally thinking, but another way it could be implemented is as a visual filter in Bibles (similar to Speaker labels). Have "Weights and Measures" labels next to all the weights and measures in the Bible, and resting a cursor on them would display the modern day equivalent. Under Settings, one could choose English or Metric measurements to be the modern day equivalent.

That's the "simple" way to pull it off. To do something fancier, I'll have to post more later when I have a chance.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474725#Comment_474725

Like almost ~½ of the new datasets in L5 compared to L4, weights and measures from L3 is not in my wish list.

Looking up in a Bible dictionary, an English Bible version and/or making Your own Excel spreadsheet that calculates this, is quite enough IMO.

I hope Logos keeps focusing on costs and doesn't start producing all kinds of things.

George T. Kelley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434687#Comment_434687

AMEN!!!!!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/607369#Comment_607369

So George T ... who did you 'Amen!!!!!' to ... George (first post), or Unix (one before yours).

I think over 1 million people (as of 2012 anyway) all creating 1 million spreadsheets makes sense to me. It's so much more efficient.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/607371#Comment_607371

So George T ... who did you 'Amen!!!!!' to ... George (first post), or Unix (one before yours).

I'm not George T. But I know the answer is neither. He was replying to EmileB. You can tell what post a person is replying to by clicking the "Replied" link next to the timestamp.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/607373#Comment_607373

That sounds too logical. Especially when java's turned off! Well, OK! Another vote for George without a 'T'.

George T. Kelley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/607371#Comment_607371

MY REPLY, UNLESS I MISSED IT, WAS TO HAVE AN INTERNAL WEIGHTS AND MEASURE CALCULATOR IN LOGOS 5, SUCH AS 3 HAD.

I end up searching my other Bible Programs, which are mostly like Logos 5 in this area, worthless (especially if I am checking several at the same time) and then the Web, commentaries are hit and miss. Take 2 Sam 14:26 "two hundred shekels after the king’s weight" now what exactly is a shekel of the king's weight and how does it differ from the temple shekel, etc. How many explanation is there for this...and how many pounds...knowing it had to be far more than others for him to brag...