Logos Updates and Upgrades and Ebooks and Data Sets

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This post has 56 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 402
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 7:54 AM

I wouldn't mind annual or semi-annual updates at minimal cost.  Sort of like Apple does with its OS and MS is planning with Windows Blue (or so it is speculated - cf. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2017470/windows-blue-how-it-could-reinvent-windows-or-sink-windows-8.html ).  I wouldn't even mind prepaying for the next update just to keep the cashflow wheels greased.

But I wouldn't want to commit to a subscription/contract.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 7:55 AM

Bob Pritchett:

- Describe enhancements as data sets and 'lock' them in the user interface for users who don't purchase them. There is a "More Timeline Events" data set in the product configuration, but it really just enables the next 3,000 events in the existing timeline data set. A resource might be fully tagged with new metadata, but it doesn't get used if you haven't upgraded to a product containing the "Enhanced Resource Metadata Volume I" data set.

+1 Yes for newer dataset edition(s) being locked until the edition has been purchased.  Possibly could include notification in a feature about a locked edition being available with expanded information. 

Wonder about adding Type:Dataset so could "see" dataset editions in my Library ?

Clicking on a dataset would open a feature that uses that content; if more than one feature, then clicking could be like FSD (Facilitate Serendipitous Discovery) to randomly open a feature.

Seems "More Timeline Events" is Timeline Events Edition 2.  The planned number of editions for Timeline Events is unknown.  A Logos Timeline feature for showing a Stack of Events on a map could require edition 2 of Timeline Events dataset since edition 1 did not have geographical information tagging with Events.  A fascinating Timeline idea is integrating political boundaries in time with events so could use a slider to watch boundaries change and have icons appear on map with events so could click icon for more information.

Bob Pritchett:
- Sell data sets by subscription, not as discrete content items. Don't sell the timeline data set or Bible People or Bible Places data sets for a one-time price. Sell them only by subscription, so that a smaller, but continual, revenue stream can fund continued improvement and addition to the data sets.

Personally prefer one time pricing for dataset editions, which includes option for Logos payment plan.

Potentially, a set of dataset editions could be offered at a pre-publication price like => http://www.logos.com/product/7565/evangelical-exegetical-commentary and => http://www.logos.com/product/6786/lexham-discourse-hebrew-bible-bundle with editions being delivered later.

When the set of dataset editions expands, offer an upgrade, similar to several commentary series (e.g. Pillar).

Keep Smiling Smile

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Richard DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 9:48 AM

Thanks for your thorough and detailed explanation of the program, product, resources and data sets. You explained this well, and a reference to your post here may help users understand what we are paying for and what it means when we hear that "the program is free."

As regards pricing models, there has to be an understanding at the time of purchase whether upgrades/updates will be included in the original price. Until now, that has been the assumption, even if it has not been explicitly stated. So any of the three options you mention is likely to get some user disapproval. It's good that you're talking about this with us now, and asking for input, rather than simply announcing a strategy, as this brings us on board as partners in solving the problem.

Personally, I like the idea of periodic (semi-annual or quarterly) paid updates to data sets, that would unlock new content. I'm concerned that you would have to sell us on the value of the updates each time, and then decide how to handle the situation where someone missed one or more update because the advertised data didn't seem interesting, and then wanted what was available in a secondary or tertiary update, without wanting to pay for the other updates. I'd suggest simply not allowing that scenario. Pricing would also be an issue. Too high and users won't want them. Too low and you won't cover your costs (and a lot of users won't buy them either - because a lot of users only buy at the time of version upgrades).

From a business perspective I can see how a subscription strategy would be attractive; you know what your income is and can spend accordingly. But many users don't like them (as is evident in this thread). Another issue to resolve is what happens to a user who does not subscribe for a year (e.g.), and then decides to subscribe. What would happen to him regarding the data he didn't subscribe to? Would he get an automatic upgrade? Would he have to 'buy in' before he could subscribe? Would he be unable to subscribe until the next version release?

That said, it seems reasonable that we users should pay for content, including content found in data sets. I would personally be open to a subscription type of arrangement, provided: (1) I keep whatever comes to me during the length of my subscription, (2)it is not economically disadvantageous to me (i.e., it's not a lot cheaper to wait for an annual data set update and/or a program upgrade to get the data), and (3) the data coming to me is not merely trivia - that is, it adds genuine scholarly/research value to me as a pastor/preacher.

Regarding my statement above about a subscription not being economically disadvantageous, I realize that in some way, to subscribe to such a service will, in effect, fund a project others might benefit from for less overall cost (either by waiting for base package upgrades, or data set upgrades). That doesn't bother me (unless their wait is too short), since I'll be able to use the data as soon as it's released - which also has value. But if a subscription service is accompanied by paid quarterly upgrades that are noticeably lower in cost than the subscription rate, I would quickly abandon a subscription. If semi-annual paid updates were made available, I would be slightly more interested in a subscription. If only annual upgrades were made available, in addition to a subscription service, I'd be much more interested. I would also want to know that at the end of the year, when I add up my subscription costs and compare them to a data set upgrade cost, that I didn't spend more than about one month's rate by subscribing. For instance, if a subscription was $10/mo., I wouldn't want to see a data set upgrade cost less than about $100. I know you'd want to sell data set upgrades, periodically, even if there is a subscription service, and you will want to create incentive to buy. One way to continue to incentivize subscriptions, even if you do sell data set upgrades, would be to lock the data in the data set upgrade at one month (or more) prior to release of the upgrade - so subscribers still have new data the annual buyers don't, even at the time of release.

I would also suggest that subscriptions be annual, and all start on the same date. Logos would have to work out what to do with people who want to subscribe mid-year, have never upgraded a data set, but now want to do so, and perhaps subscribe at the same time. That gets messy, very quickly. But all the models have messy aspects to them.

 Help links: WIKI;   Videos; Logos 5 FAQ (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 564
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 10:43 AM

Bob Pritchett:
- Describe enhancements as data sets and 'lock' them in the user interface for users who don't purchase them. There is a "More Timeline Events" data set in the product configuration, but it really just enables the next 3,000 events in the existing timeline data set. A resource might be fully tagged with new metadata, but it doesn't get used if you haven't upgraded to a product containing the "Enhanced Resource Metadata Volume I" data set.

This seems like a good way forward, I think that the biggest challenges would be:

  1. Articulating the benefits of the different datasets so that existing users purchase them rather than wait for a major upgrade.
  2. How to package the 'interim' datasets, I see a couple of options:
    1. Market them individually, challenge here is that you could end up with a website full of dataset upgrades that is confusing for users.
    2. Create packages based on areas of interest and version them as each feature is added, increasing the package price and offering upgrades based on the price difference between the version the user owns and the current version.

Assuming that you retain a 3 year major release cycle whichever approach you take it would probably make sense to level the base packages at the mid point the issues that I see here are:

  1. If you don't do it then over 3 years the base package plus dataset upgrades could become complex and confusing.
  2. If you price this too attractively then all existing users will simply wait for this option unless they have a compelling reason to purchase a specific dataset.

An alternative could be to consider the datasets as 'editions'. Using timelines as and example I currently own the 2012 edition and if this was a book when you published the 2013 edition with an extra 3,000 events I would have to the new edition if I want the extra detail. I know that for books you have offered special pricing for existing owners when new editions are published if you took this approach then the only difference would be that whereas I end up with both editions of a book I would only expect to have a single copy of the dataset (I can't see any reason why I would need both).

Whilst the edition concept works well for timelines I'm not sure how well it works for enhanced tagging as there would be an updated edition of a 'search' dataset but the improvements are realised through a book that has not changed edition. Not sure that this is a show stopper just a case of ensuring that the value of datasets is understood by users.

Presumably you would refresh the packages periodically i.e. when there have been a number of dataset upgrades. Again these could be a chargeable option for existing owners of that package whereas historically these package updates have been delivered free of charge.

Personally I'm not convinced by a subscription model but would probably pay for dataset upgrades if there is a clear value being offered. 

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 60
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 11:08 AM

Definitely, 100000% against any type of subscription model.

I'll pay up front, a one-off payment (even if it works out more than subscribing!!) for logos goodies.

 

Please don't go down the subscription route for anything!

Posts 2885
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 12:17 PM

Mark Barnes:

Thanks, Bob, for this very helpful post.

Bob Pritchett:
What is the best way to monetize enhancements / additions to content already sold?

Definitely, absolutely, certainly not a subscription, which has never worked for Logos (think the original Personal Book Builder licence, or the current FSB). Users hate this model for anything that they intend to use over a long period of time - unless the product is very expensive and a subscription makes it affordable. Logos 5 Portfolio for $100/month would be attractive to some, but probably only those who wanted something for college but didn't intend using it much afterwards.

Personally, I would suggest using the Collections Model, which we're already used to. When you update the Timeline, create a collection called Timeline (2 vols), and include two datasets to that collection: Timeline 2012 and Timeline 2013. When you next bring out a new Timeline, create a new collection called Timeline (3 vols), and retire Timeline (2 vols). Give users dynamic pricing options, so that users who already own the 2 volume collection, and upgrade to the 3 volume collection at 66% off.

Yes

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 1:11 PM

Thanks Bob for the explanation. Very well thought out, no surprise there!

Of the three choices you mention, it really comes out to:

1. Give it away for free and make it up elsewhere - probably appeases more users who see the word FREE related to Logos, and assume most everything is. As you mention, bad for Logos, and ultimately bad for users who (like myself) want to see Logos grow in its capability).

2. Enhance data sets, charge for them - I assume this would be largely bundled into upgrades (Logos 6 - enhanced timeline tagging, enhanced x, enhanced y...).  I like this because users can evaluate cost vs. feature they are getting, Logos gets paid for what they do.

3. Subscription model - I am not against this as much as most are, but it does present a big scary unknown of a future expense that I may not be able to pay for forever, and then I lose something. Given how many users complain about prices I doubt this will fly, and that will limit Logos as well.

So I vote for Logos charging for the investment in the feature. Keep[p it seamless. Keep growing the functionality. I think more and better datasets is a great thing!  I hope this doesn't mean more minor work on enhancing datasets can't continue through the life of a version, as that keeps us all excited and there is a lot of money coming in for upgrades, resources, etc. Maybe the model can make that happen.

Posts 478
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Phil Gons | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 3:09 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Wonder about adding Type:Dataset so could "see" dataset editions in my Library ?

FWIW, you can see a list of all your datasets under Help > About Logos Bible Software:

Bible Facts

DB:BIBLICAL-EVENTS2012-10-30T23:24:10ZBiblicalEvents.lbsevt

DB:BIBLICAL-PEOPLE2012-11-20T18:34:29ZBiblicalPeople.lbsbpd

DB:BIBLICAL-PEOPLE-DIAGRAMS2012-10-30T16:52:56ZStaticPeopleGraphs.lbsspd

DB:BIBLICAL-PLACES2012-11-20T18:43:56ZBiblicalPlaces.lbsplc

DB:BIBLICAL-PLACES-MAPS2011-02-17T20:33:14ZBiblicalPlacesMaps.lbsmps

DB:BIBLICAL-REFERENTS2012-11-21T00:36:07ZBiblicalReferents.lbsbrd

DB:BIBLICAL-THINGS2012-11-20T20:08:26ZBiblicalThings.lbsthg

Bible Sense Lexicon

DB:WORD-SENSES2012-10-30T23:15:38ZWordSenses.lbswsd

Bible Word Study

DB:GRAMMAR-AF-ARC2010-04-07T18:15:45Zgrammar-af-arc.lbsgrm

DB:GRAMMAR-AF-HE2010-04-07T22:37:47Zgrammar-af-he.lbsgrm

DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL2010-02-09T00:13:12Zgrammar-lbs-el.lbsgrm

DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL-CSGNT2012-08-24T23:31:06Zgrammar-lbs-el-csgnt.lbsgrm

DB:PHRASE-CONCORDANCE2012-11-08T01:00:17ZPhraseConcordance.lbspcd

Clause Search

DB:CLAUSES-LGNTISBL2012-10-31T01:59:09ZClauses-LGNTISBL.lbscls

DB:CLAUSES-LHB2012-10-31T00:40:25ZClauses-LHB.lbscls

Compare Pericopes

DB:PERICOPESETS2012-10-17T17:52:22ZPericopeSets.lbspsd

Excerpts

DB:EXCERPTS2012-11-08T22:52:38Zexcerpts.lbsexc

Morph Search

DB:LEMMA-AF-ARC-HOT-DSS2012-10-17T01:02:20Zdss-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-AF-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:01:56Zaf-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-AF-HE-HOT-DSS2012-10-17T01:02:18Zdss-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-AF-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:01:53Zaf-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-CAL-ARC-TARG2012-10-17T01:02:02Zcal-morph-arc-targ.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-FR-EL-NT2012-10-17T01:02:32Zfr-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-IN-ARC2012-10-17T01:02:36Zin-morph-arc.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-IN-SE2012-10-17T01:02:34Zin-morph-se.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-JS-EL-NT2012-10-17T01:02:48Zjs-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-ARC-HB2012-10-31T23:35:24Zlbs-morph-arc-hb.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GAF2012-10-17T01:03:08Zlbs-morph-el-af.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GIL2012-10-17T01:04:37Zlbs-morph-el-iliad.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GWJ2012-10-17T01:03:43Zlbs-morph-el-gwj.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GWP2012-10-17T01:04:18Zlbs-morph-el-gwp.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-LXX2012-10-17T01:05:18Zlbs-morph-el-lxx.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-NT2012-10-31T23:38:25Zlbs-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-OTP2012-10-17T01:06:38Zlbs-morph-el-otp.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-HE-HB2012-10-31T23:39:18Zlbs-morph-he-hb.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:07:57Zlls-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-ARC-QSM2012-10-17T01:07:10Zlls-morph-arc-qsm.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-EL-NT2012-10-17T01:07:22Zlls-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:07:44Zlls-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-HE-QSM2012-10-17T01:07:54Zlls-morph-he-qsm.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LPI-SYR-PESH2012-10-17T01:07:59Zlpi-morph-syr-pesh.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-S3-SYR-PESH2012-10-17T01:08:01Zs3morph-syr-pesh.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-SESB-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:08:09Zsesb-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-SESB-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:08:07Zsesb-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-WIVU-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:08:12Zwivu-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-WIVU-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:08:33Zwivu-morph-he-ot.lbslem

Sermon Starter Guide

DB:PREACHINGTHEMES2012-11-27T23:32:26ZPreachingThemes.lbsptd

DB:THEMATIC-OUTLINES2012-10-31T00:19:28ZThematicOutlines.lbstod

Speaker labels

DB:REPORTED-SPEECH2012-11-26T23:43:54ZReportedSpeech.lbsrsd

Syntax Search

DB:SYNTAX-AFAT2012-06-16T01:04:30ZAndersenForbesHebrewOT.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-CSGNT2012-10-04T15:04:00ZCSGNT.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-CSGNTSBL2012-10-04T15:05:35ZCSGNTSBL.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-LEXHAMSGNT2010-11-02T22:57:48ZSyntacticGNT.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-LEXHAMSGNTSBL2011-06-15T23:47:48ZLSGNTSBL.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-OPENTEXTGNT2011-08-30T15:50:41ZOpenText.lbssyn

Timeline

DB:UNIVERSAL-TIMELINE2012-10-31T00:02:53ZUniversalTimeline.lbsut

Topic Guide

DB:LCV2012-10-31T00:12:36ZLCV.lbslcv

Posts 12702
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 4:44 PM

Phil Gons:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Wonder about adding Type:Dataset so could "see" dataset editions in my Library ?

FWIW, you can see a list of all your datasets under Help > About Logos Bible Software:

Appreciate About insights.  If could show Type:Datasets in Library, could also "see" Last Updated, ratings, community tags, my tags, ...

The about list includes date and time of Dataset revision, but does not show when dataset was added/updated in my Library.   Also, the About list is a bit challenging to count number of Datasets while grouping by Type in Library quickly shows resource count.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 6:15 PM

Thank you, Bob for that insight. I agree with Mark, Mark, and Graham.

Posts 402
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 6:35 PM

... just coming up for some air after spending the afternoon on Heb 9.16-17.   Cool

While I don't think anyone wants Logos to sputter and cough along because of unpredictable cashflow and revenues, it also is impractical to think that everyone wants to jump into any sort of a subscription plan.  And yet, it also is not right to simple say, "Gimme. Gimme. Gimme. I need. I need." and expect Logos to make it up somewhere else.  This company deserves the support for the excellent work and services they provide ... don't want to muzzle the oxen while they are threshing.  Consequently, it occurs to me that Bob's desire to charge for Dataset upgrades could be easily accommodated by using a tiered system. 

At the very least expensive end of the scale would be those who are willing to allow Bob to tap their credit card automatically on a regular basis for the Update Service.  All of the Datasets that they presently own would be updated on a continual basis until the end of the subscription period.  IOW, a subscription plan. 

Slightly more expensive (but still a 'significant' discount) would be those who are willing to prepay for upcoming updates.  Not a subscription, per se, but desirous of assisting the Logos cashflow while keeping their L5 up to date.  These Users can pick and choose which datasets they want to have updated and will get their updates as soon as they are released.

At the high cost end would be those who wish to upgrade after development/publication of the upgrade.  These Users can also pick and choose which datasets they want to have updated ... and when.  IOW, the most flexibility but the most cost.

Seems to me that something of this sort might be a good middle ground serving the needs of both Logos and Users.  .

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 272
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 11:10 PM

One other reason against subscription is that some of us have very varying incomes. I am sure I am not the only one who buys Logos resources when I have money not necessarily when I need them. But there might come a time when I need those resources but won't have the income. A subscription model would be very disadvantageous in this case.

Armin

Posts 1525
Forum MVP
Andy Evans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 1 2012 11:40 PM

I also agree with Mark and Graham.

My concern regarding a subscription model is less to do with the continuing cost (although this is a factor) and more to do with the fact that I want to own the functionality associated with the software. I am obviously prepared to pay for this functionality.

Windows 7 Premium 64-bit, ASUS P6T, i7-960 3.20 GHz, 6 GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHz, 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX285

13" MBA (2011), i5 1.7GHz, 256SSD, 4GB

Posts 1069
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 2 2012 12:29 AM

I believe Dataset is a term confusing for many. One complaint I seem to be hearing is "I had that data or that search capability all along, you're scamming me".

I would suggest calling it "Meta-Reference Engine" or something that sounded as tangible as code, then you could have your various levels and/or versions.

Posts 8124
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 2 2012 4:26 AM

Lee:
I believe Dataset is a term confusing for many.

I don't think confusion is the issue with many of the complainers. It is the "I want everything that I want, but I also want someone else to pay for what I want" mentality that has come to dominate the US. Can't speak for the rest of the world, but I see it increasing to dangerous levels in this country.

Posts 2228
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Fredc | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 2 2012 4:37 AM

Jack Caviness:

Lee:
I believe Dataset is a term confusing for many.

I don't think confusion is the issue with many of the complainers. It is the "I want everything that I want, but I also want someone else to pay for what I want" mentality that has come to dominate the US. Can't speak for the rest of the world, but I see it increasing to dangerous levels in this country.

YesYesYes

Logos 5 Get the FAQ's

Grow in your personal relationship with Christ; so you can help others come into and grow in a personal relationship with Christ

Posts 208
Luuk Dondorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 2 2012 5:09 AM

And I agree with Jack, Mark, Mark and Graham.

No subscriptions!

Jack Caviness:

Thank you, Bob for that insight. I agree with Mark, Mark, and Graham.

 

 

Luuk

 

Posts 478
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 2 2012 5:38 AM

I'm in agreement with Mark especially. Two small things were also mentioned I don't think should be glossed over, although may not be completely related - more Lexham products in core packages (makes up for some of the weaknesses and cost control as it's a Logos generated product) and a "pre-pub" like system to help cover cost. I'd pay a one time fee for an upgrade but would welcome the opportunity to pre-pub it to save me a little money and help you cover the cost ahead of time.

Posts 5555
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 2 2012 5:38 AM

1. No subscriptions.

2. I wonder about the requirement for inclusion of datasets in the collections (as the L5 rollout began), instead of separately purchasable (as L5 ended up).

Do the costs support separately purchasable datasets?

If so, that's my preference. I have a large Logos investment, but don't need fluffy books. But I am willing to pay 'premium' for the datasets.

However, having watched the OT Discourse prepub (which is really a dataset overlaying a text), sufficient purchasers to break-even is a question, and I assume matching the datasets to collections might be unavoidable?


Posts 0
Philip Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 2 2012 6:55 AM

Yes

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