Logos 4 frustration

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This post has 66 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 188
Kevin Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:11 PM

Wow.... there were alot of good points made in this thread and alot of emoting as well.  Here is my humble and proverbial 2 cents.

I have used several Bible software products through the years including PC Study Bible, BibleWorks and QuickVerse.  After much thought I decided that Logos was offering an amazing and long standing product and I juamped on the Logos bus with version 3 in Nov of 2007... WOW!

My usuage level is somewhere between intermediate and advanced, meaning I need a system that offer loads of resources for critical study as well as having adequate language tools for exegesis and original language study.  Based on this, I felt then and feel now that Logos 3 and now 4 are without peer overall as far as a study tool.  There are programs like BibleWorks that arguable handle language study as good or better but lack in the library arena [although I realize that they are not seeking to be a library based tool].  But no other tool does all that Logos does as well as Logos does it in my opinion.

There is also an added issue of the Logos company and their superior handling of customers.  I have NEVER seen any company from the CEO down that is better built to serve the customer.

1. What company offers their high end product on a handshake via no credit check payment plans?

2. What company guarantees that what you buy you will always own even when the product upgrades.... For life?

3. What company offers free engine upgrades for life so that you always know that even 4 computers and 6 Operating Systems from now you will STILL be able to use the product? Logos 8 anyone???

4. What company offers the sheer amounts of resources that Logos offers in this genre of software?

5. What company lets you purchase very reasonable upgrade packages for your resources when the newest version comes out and still allows your older version to work as a standalone [Logos 3 Silver still runs fine even though Logos 4 Platinum is running on the same machine].

Logos even allows you to run this software on muliple machines or multiple OS's for FREE and on the honor system [if I could tolerate the thought of a Mac in my house I might even have Logos installed on the thing].  Try that with any of the other Bible software packages mentioned earlier and you will be quite disappointed.

Based on all of these points and the fact that Logos is definitely leading edge, what power tool do you know that can be lept into in 10 minutes and fully discovered?  A power tool offers power rewards and even though I was able to do basic things on both Logos 3 & 4 within minutes it took a much longer time for me to adjust to all it can do.

All this being said Logos is the best bang for the buck, a big blessing and worth the time and money invested to master it.  The forums are even free and are loaded with people that enjoy helping to solve these learning curve issues and offer solutions.  Even the CEO frequents the place to offer encouragement and great advice.

For those that have a 6 year old computer that they are disappointed won't run with blazing speed on Logos 4, please, are you serious? I say this not as an insult but seriously, are you serious?  Even $100 a year tucked away keeps you in a new computer every 5 years, time to upgrade. 

All software no matter what genre requires increasingly faster equipment to run it effectively.  This is the Word of God my friends, if It can be studied better and faster then a new computer is definitely worth the price of admission.

As for the L4 lauch... sudden, yes.  Somewhat buggy... yes.  Do I regret buying on day 1.... NO!  Although I am missing some of the features that are soon to come I am by no means handicapped by the current L4.  Logos 3 is there for the few things I absolutely need now and I seldom spark it up anymore now that I have read these very forums for workarounds.

Logos = Integrity, Value, Power, Lifetime Investment and a better way to study the Word of Life.

What more can be said?

Humbly,

Kevin

Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....

Posts 411
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:39 PM

All I can say Kevin is I wish I had said what you said!!! That was a great summation.

I have used Logos for the last about 6 years and the only point I would make is that my D505 Dell Latitude runs LOgos 4 just fine. Would a faster system run it that much faster? Sure, but it isn't critical or a game stopper.

The launch of Logos 4 was sudden, but thanks to Bob's explanation to those of us in the Beta program it made perfect sense. Any new application has a learning curve and you either embrace the change or you don't. We all have a choice in the matter. I will say that the learning curve for Logos 4 from 3 is better than MS Office 2003 to 2007. Wanna talk nightmare?

 

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

Posts 25
Paul Schack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:53 PM

I came on board with version 1, upgraded to Libronix and have not upgraded to Logos 4.  I have had many positive contacts with technical support.  There are many good additions ahead although they will require technology to be at a level to handle it.

I trust the Logos people.

Posts 818
Richard Lyall | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 4:21 PM

Shawn Drewett:

It's just that every single person that expresses frustration, confusion or disappointment with L4 invariably gets "corrected" as to what a great product they really have and that they have no reason to be "negative." I realize I can be a pain myself but I hate subjectivity.

What nonsense.

What people seem to react to is the tone of the communication rather than its content. The kind of "this is completely cr*p" and "OMG I wish I hadn't bothered" rather than simply setting out their frustrations.

Also, what is unfairly labelled as "corrected" is more often than not a note to say "actually you can do X and here's how" or "it's a bit different to L3".

Sure, there is some whingeing going on, and maybe a little bit of sucking up to Logos on a rare occasion, but seems to me like most responses are constructive and factual rather than corrective.

I don't think this makes me a starry-eyed Logos groupie - it's just that my experience of this forum doesn't match your claim, and I've spent a LOT of time here since the beginning of the beta testing.

Posts 3751
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 4:22 PM

Richard Lyall:

I don't think this makes me a starry-eyed Logos groupie - it's just that my experience of this forum doesn't match your claim, and I've spent a LOT of time here since the beginning of the beta testing.

+1

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 4:24 PM

OR

edited to delete my insenstive comment

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 5:01 PM

Wow the longest discussions on here rarely deal with Logos issues and more with who is at fault for not answering correctly.  Hmmmm

Posts 33842
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 5:11 PM

DouglasEStephens:
Not being able to use the scroll bar is driving me batty.

Why can't you use the scroll bar? I've not had a problem.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 5:43 PM

MJ. Smith:

DouglasEStephens:
Not being able to use the scroll bar is driving me batty.

Why can't you use the scroll bar? I've not had a problem.

I've seen this stated a few times, and was wondering the same thing.

Posts 1
Kevin Dart | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 6:41 PM

I'm a layperson who uses L3 for personal Bible study.  L3 is really too much for my purposes however I would like to enjoy some of the new features listed in the L4 specs.  The Greek and Hebrew audio readers intrigue me, and being able to search my whole library seems too easy to be true.  I am somewhat afraid of the new Interface but I'll take the time to learn it when the time comes to upgrade.  Should I upgrade now or wait and see how it all works out in mid 2010?  I do have a new Dell Studio 17 laptop running Windows 7.  You seem to be very knowledgeable about both L3 and L4. I would really appreciate your opinion.  Thanks, and God Bless,  Kevin. 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 6:48 PM

Kevin Dart:

I'm a layperson who uses L3 for personal Bible study.  L3 is really too much for my purposes however I would like to enjoy some of the new features listed in the L4 specs.  The Greek and Hebrew audio readers intrigue me, and being able to search my whole library seems too easy to be true.  I am somewhat afraid of the new Interface but I'll take the time to learn it when the time comes to upgrade.  Should I upgrade now or wait and see how it all works out in mid 2010?  I do have a new Dell Studio 17 laptop running Windows 7.  You seem to be very knowledgeable about both L3 and L4. I would really appreciate your opinion.  Thanks, and God Bless,  Kevin. 

My recommendation would be update to L4 now using the free link, testing out some of the features that most interest you (keep in mind some features will not be available to you such as Biblical people/places/things). You will still have full access to L3 and you can see what you think of the new UI without losing a penny.

Posts 10850
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 6:51 PM

P. Keith Larson:
Don’t let those who are the self-proclaimed thought police of this forum drive you off. They make excuses for themselves by saying that they are only responding to inflammatory language. There was nothing inflammatory about your language, only frustrated, yet they basically told you to shut up and take a hike. 

If you plan to criticize someone, at least do so honestly. Neither Robert nor I told anyone to take a hike. I simply replied that the course of action suggested by the poster may be his best course of action. Why should anyone continue to frustrate himself?

Posts 1666
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 7:38 PM

For "MJ" and Jeremiah:

Yes, Some of us have consistently noticed that (for us) the scroll bar is very, very, very sluggish. Tugging, clicking at it results in delays of seconds and results finally in 'jumps." It definitely is NOT smmooooth. There is NO comparison to the scroll bar on my L3..

There may be many reasons...all I can judge by is what I see.

It is much worse on my P4 one core. I must keep resources to a bare minimum (2? etc)  in order to "beat" this problem.

.As to the 2 core 4 gig laptop,(ie Logos target? middle of the road?  computer?) it runs slightly better. 

If I was upgrading I'd buy a i7 quad core tower (to get comperable specs in a laptop would be very expensive).

As others have noted this is a "hit-and-miss," computer to computer, user to user experience and NO ONE has come up with a definitive answer as of yet.

And if they think they have, so far I believe they are merely extremely fortunate in their software/harware configuration.

So I continue to try to work around it hoping for future "optimizations" etc

Steve F.

 

Regards, SteveF

Posts 3094
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 8:16 PM

P. Keith Larson:

I share your frustration and as a long time Logos user and supporter I have a deep sense of betrayal.

 

Betrayal?  When you wife has sex with your best friend, that's betrayal.  A software company not meeting your (possibly unrealistic) expectations isn't even in the same time zone with 'betrayal'.

Good grief, people.  Get a life!

I'm brand new to L3, and even newer to L4.  But one thing I figured out is, there are a LOT of experienced users on these forums, and if you bother to ask a question instead of whining, you'll get good answers.

(Sorry for the lack of patience, folks...I'm getting tired of this <bleep> I'm seeing on the forums.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 386
Clinton Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 8:40 PM

KevinTaylor:
For those that have a 6 year old computer that they are disappointed won't run with blazing speed on Logos 4, please, are you serious? I say this not as an insult but seriously, are you serious?

Actually my company has a rule that any feature that is present in version n should run as fast or faster in version n+1 if run on the same machine (unless it has had significant new functionality added.) Every night we run our testsuite on the latest build and track down the code changes which cause any slowdown and fix it right away.

So as long as the computer runs the software and meets the requirements, it is not unreasonable to seriously expect all the V3 features that made it into V4 to meet this speed limit. The improvement in the searches proves it can be done for the complex functions so it should be possible for the mundane.

It may be that an older computer won't run everything as fast as the latest iron will, but to expect the same function to be the same speed or faster in subsequent versions on the same computer is seriously reasonable.

Regards,

Clinton

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 2 2009 2:17 AM

Stephen Filyer:

As others have noted this is a "hit-and-miss," computer to computer, user to user experience and NO ONE has come up with a definitive answer as of yet.

And if they think they have, so far I believe they are merely extremely fortunate in their software/harware configuration.

'

THAT seems to be an accurate statement and one that's a source of a lot of the frustrations here on the forum.

It just doesn't seem that "bigger = faster" in a simplified way....it's something unknown at this point....hmmm

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 188
Kevin Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 2 2009 5:51 AM

Clinton Thomas:

KevinTaylor:
For those that have a 6 year old computer that they are disappointed won't run with blazing speed on Logos 4, please, are you serious? I say this not as an insult but seriously, are you serious?

Actually my company has a rule that any feature that is present in version n should run as fast or faster in version n+1 if run on the same machine (unless it has had significant new functionality added.) Every night we run our testsuite on the latest build and track down the code changes which cause any slowdown and fix it right away.

So as long as the computer runs the software and meets the requirements, it is not unreasonable to seriously expect all the V3 features that made it into V4 to meet this speed limit. The improvement in the searches proves it can be done for the complex functions so it should be possible for the mundane.

It may be that an older computer won't run everything as fast as the latest iron will, but to expect the same function to be the same speed or faster in subsequent versions on the same computer is seriously reasonable.

Regards,

Clinton

 

 

 

Clinton, while I commend you company's policy and the general rule you are applying here it is simply beyond reason for anyone to think that a machine that is 5 or 6 years old will have anything beyond a minimal performance level while running certain applications.

I have been an uber computer enthusiast for 25 years, building and repairing PCs, and am an IT professional in an Enterprise environment and I tell you that any PC that is 6 years old is ancient if doing anything more than surfing and running basic apps.  As far as a gaming or high end production machine doing say video editing PC etc, 3 years old is quite aged.

I have L4 installed on my 5 y/o 2 Ghz Celeron [2 Gigs Ram] which I recently installed Win 7 Ultimate on and I tell you that it runs but after using my gaming laptop all day the last thing I want to do is run L4 on my elderly Celeron Desktop.  The performance differences are highly noticable so guess what? I run L4 on my 64 bit Duo Core laptop 100% of the time.

The point is that while L4 runs on older systems each user must decide what an acceptable "run speed" is for them.  It is not fair to expect software developers to account for the guy out there still running Windows 2000 on a Pentium 4 while designing software.  That guy needs to upgrade his machine as all of the creative programming in the world cannot make L4 run on a Pentium 4 like it runs on my 64 bit Duo Core.

If you believe that, I have an old Yugo I want to sell you, it runs on the race track just like a 2009 Porche!

Any serious computer user needs to budget to upgrade his/her machine every few years to make sure they are getting the best experience possible.  This is especially true of people wo use Bible software as a main study tool.  It is worth it to me to spend money on great equipment because it has a great return to my spiritual life.  That was all I was saying...

Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 2 2009 7:24 AM

The original post and the subsequent responses are an interesting read!

As with the original poster I too am a WORDsearch user and a Logos user (I also have the now defunt Pradis as well).  I plan to upgrade to both WORDSearch9 and L4.  I appreciate what each of these programs contribute to my study.  Here's why I will be upgrading both.

1.  WORDSearch still has book selections that Logos does not.  Some of these are current and some of these are classics.  As long as that's the case I will use both.  I much prefer studying the Bible digitally then with pen and paper.  Incidently, this was the reason I used Pradis as well - they had the NIV Application Commentary and The Expositors Bible Commentary.

2.  Sometime Logos has more power then I actually need to use.  If I want to do a "quick" study where I am not overwhelmed by possibilites and wander off track then I typically use WORDSearch.  If I want to get "down and deep" with a passage then it's Logos.  I see value to having both.

That said, I can not run L4 on my laptop.  My laptop is 5 years old and it runs fine but it just meets the basic system requirements but not the  recommended system requirements for L4.  I'm not going to drop the $$ to convert to L4 only to be frustrated by what I know would end up being a seriously slower version of Logos on my laptop.  I don't really have the money to buy a new laptop so the Christmas list changes as a hopes of offsetting the cost.  This is where L4 hurts Logos users like me.  The money that I had planned to put down for product now is budgeted for a new laptop.  I am quite certain my upgrade will be the L4 equivalent and not a step up (Scholars gold to gold rather then Scholars gold to platinum).  This also effects my decision on what to do with the Pradis/Logos transition.  If the "discount" offered to Logos users is not much of a discount at all I will simply hold off on that and use Pradis until it becomes unuseable.  For someone like me, L4 has cost Logos money because the money that I was budgeting for Logos books now must go to a new Laptop. 

I realize that I may be in the miniority here; a Logos user who does not have the latest and greatest computer.  I am still of the impression that the new L4 and what it requires in computer power, computer skills, and finances (Logos product + high end computer) has made Logos more of an elite Academic tool rather then something that the average Pastor in America (or even the average person who wants to study the Bible on a deeper level) can afford or use.

I am looking forward to upgrading to L4 and I hope the upgrade discounts last into the new year when I will be able to afford both the equivalent updgrade to what I own now and a new laptop.

Chris Hulshof

“Truth is unkillable” – Balthasar Hubmaier

 

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 386
Clinton Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 2 2009 8:12 AM

Clinton Thomas:

... wrote a bunch of stuff about relative performance...

KevinTaylor:

... wrote a bnuch of stuff about absolute performance....

Hi Kevin,

I think you missed my point.

Regards,

Clinton

Posts 142
James Macleod | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 2 2009 8:19 AM

Clinton Thomas:

Actually my company has a rule that any feature that is present in version n should run as fast or faster in version n+1 if run on the same machine (unless it has had significant new functionality added.) Every night we run our testsuite on the latest build and track down the code changes which cause any slowdown and fix it right away.

I've been in development for 20+ years and this is fine if you are going from version n to version n+1 but it is a totally different situation with Logos 4. They have redeveloped on a totally different platform. It's like redeveloping for another OS. I've done the conversion myself and it is not easy. I think they have done a good job of providing the core library functionality, with a bunch of new features, on the new platform. This provides them with a good basis for moving forward. I think the first order of business was to get the product into users hands so they could start getting feedback.

I suspect a lot of the speed issues are related to the underlying framework and the resources that it requires.  I am also guessing most users probably don't have enough memory or processing power. Logos will work out speed issues over time but if you want to use the latest software you need to budget for good hardware. I have a 3 year old no frills laptop and it works fine.

As a development company you are really in a no win situation. If you move to new technology with new features  the users are mad because you changed their beloved product. But you really do need to change the product to take advantage of the new platform and position yourself for future development. If on the other hand you don't move, the users are upset in a few years because of how backward thinking your are and your product isn't taking advantage of the latest bells and wistles like other programs are. The fact of the matter is that Microsoft is putting all their resources behind .Net, WPF, WCF, etc. As a developer, if you are not playing in this space you will be left behind.

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