How to re-write and release a replacement product.

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This post has 174 Replies | 4 Followers

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:40 PM

Ken Avery:

My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.

I get so frustrated because it took years to get Logos the way I want it and now it is all out the window!

I can agree with the first part. Prioritizing is not a functional equivalent of L3's data type "key linking". It is an attempt to get away from the complexities of L3, but it is a feature that is fraught with compromise as the desired object for different references or links cannot be achieved 100% of the time. For example it is not possible to construct a list which will ensure that ESL is the object for Greek Strong's and Hebrew Strong's numbers when you have other lexicons that are also indexed on Strong's numbers.

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:40 PM

Sean Boisen:
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.

Yes...and I can live with prioritizing as a replacement for keylinking, but it needs to be better then a hodgepodge of resource thrown into a list. They need to at least be color coded so It's easier to see what is what.

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:43 PM

Sean Boisen:
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.

And let me repeat, it does not work for phrases. This is not an issue of "fine-grained control". It is less functional.

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:49 PM

Philip Spitzer:

Ken Avery:
What about keylinking - I hated it when it first came out and ended up depending on it after getting everything set up - is there something that replaces it?

Have you prioritized any of your resources?

Yes - it does not have the same finite control - hopefully Logos comes up with a way to get the same or better control.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:59 PM

Damian McGrath:

Sean Boisen:
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.

And let me repeat, it does not work for phrases. This is not an issue of "fine-grained control". It is less functional.

I keylinked on phrases often in L3.  I can't do it now.

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Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:01 PM

Ken, this sounds like (perfect) Rush Limbaugh logic!

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:02 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Debra W Bouey:
If you want to vent, well, I reckon you're obviously free to do that in this forum as well ... just don't expect us to bow at your superior footstool without expressing ourselves as well, kind sir.

I don't believe Ken was expecting that at all, nor am I. So it was probably not a helpful comment. I am simply engaging in a friend debate and expressing my views. After all this is a forum and that is what one does in an online forum. Thanks for engaging in the debate.

No, it wasn't, Kevin. I have an utterly sinful acerbic bent along with the inclination to exercise it upon occasion and it is never appropriate to do so, thank you for the gracious, gentle nudge to watch the "tongue", virtually speaking.

Ken, my snarky little comment referenced above was and is grossly inappropriate and downright sinful. Please accept my apologies for doing so.

Kevin: I suppose I'm somewhat perplexed at the depth of the frustrations with L-4, since it did not overwrite the very software program - Libronix 3 - which allowed the personalized upgrade rate for the new software. One can run a fully functional Libronix 3 alongside, or independent of Logos 4. I can also appreciate the length of time the initial L-4 download and subsequent indexing have taken for many. It isn't like L-4 overwrote Libronix 3, it's still the same. I think it's just the disappointment of what's missing, coupled with the radically new ways one must go about accomplishing things in L-4 with the things not ported to it yet all rolled into it. But, as you have frequently expressed here as well, I still see the promise in L-4 as it matures along the way. (But, then, I'm a medical research wonkette and we spend years completing incomplete data and such. So, admittedly, I'm used to that sort of thing more so than most might be.)

I understood, somehow, after watching the introductory video and a thorough reading of the "missing" section, etc., at the outset that Logos 4 was far from its maturity. I didn't expect it to be ripe at the outset. Even so, as I alluded to previously, I wasn't terribly pleased with L-4 when I first beheld its new "home" page format. Nor do I care for the ongoing time investment in getting layouts and collections and the like customized when I already invested so much time in Libronix 3. Yet I'm still finding more to like in Logos 4 day by day.

I'm with you in that I see what a mature Logos 4 is likely to be and I like it. I just wish it was there already 'cause I don't like waiting for the gradual update roll outs a bit more than I like radical change and paradigm shifts. Smile

P.S. I realize these posts can pass in the night as well, 'tis the nature of online discussions.

Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:09 PM

Ken Avery:

 

I will be blunt; the way it looks to me is that Logs 4 was not scoped out properly and missed the schedule big time and was released as a product when it was still in developemnt to generate a little income to keep the project going.

Perfect Rush Limbaugh type logic!

 

Posts 2751
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:10 PM

Debra W Bouey:

No, it wasn't, Kevin. I have an utterly sinful acerbic bent along with the inclination to exercise it upon occasion and it is never appropriate to do so, thank you for the gracious, gentle nudge to watch the "tongue", virtually speaking.

Ken, my snarky little comment referenced above was and is grossly inappropriate and downright sinful. Please accept my apologies for doing so.

Kudos to you madam. Thanks for the kind response. See how when Christians handle conflict in a Christlike way it usually ends well. And I too apologize for my negative spirit this evening.

Posts 2751
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:12 PM

Shawn Drewett:

Ken, this sounds like (perfect) Rush Limbaugh logic!

If you are a Democrat them's fightin' words.

If you are a Republican its high praise.

Like telling your child his art project is very interesting.

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:25 PM

Sorry Kevin, I don't understand.

Posts 2751
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:29 PM

If you like Rush than to be called perfect Rush Limbaugh logic would be a compliment. Like saying to a Christian, you are very Christ like.

But if you don't like Rush as most Democrats don't, it would seem like an insult.  Like a Muslim telling another Muslim, that was very Christ-like. Might start a fight.

If I don't know your persuasion, then I don't know if you are complementing or criticizing, much like a parent who doesn't want to hurt Johnny's feelings when he shows off his macaroni art. "Interesting" the parent says.

I was trying to add some levity.

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:33 PM

Thanks for explaining. For the most part I rate Rush very high in intelligence and logic and rightness.

So it was a compliment.Yes

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:37 PM

Another thing- to me telling a person "if you have complaints about L4 , get a refund" is like telling someone who has a complaint about America to revoke his/her citizenship!

Posts 2751
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:39 PM

Shawn Drewett:
Another thing- to me telling a person "if you have complaints about L4 , get a refund" is like telling someone who has a complaint about America to revoke his/her citizenship!

Well said. It's like a pastor telling a disgruntled church member to just leave the church. Insensitive.

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:43 PM

This is even a better comparison. I am not very old, (I don't think I am Embarrassed) 43, but I remember when WalMart revolutionized the retail industry by bending over backwards and accepting the return of almost ANY item opened or unopened. Before WalMart, this was a "can't do" thing. What I am saying is that the American mindset has changed and it is more demanding today, especially when one invests alot of money.

Posts 707
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:47 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Shawn Drewett:
Another thing- to me telling a person "if you have complaints about L4 , get a refund" is like telling someone who has a complaint about America to revoke his/her citizenship!

Well said. It's like a pastor telling a disgruntled church member to just leave the church. Insensitive.

My pastoral experience has taught me that shared frustration is evidence of a much higher level of commitment than silent apathy.

For me, the release of Logos 4 has caused me to reengage this software with the hope that it will prove to be a better tool that L3 or other competitive software for that matter.

It will take some honest criticism and feedback for that to happen.

I'm sure the management at Logos appreciates the passion that is being expressed in these forums.
Live forums are a better sign for the future of a company than dead forums.

Posts 10715
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:54 PM

Ken Avery:
I must disagree strongly that the new product is not required to function as the old product; I have maintained SW that has to be backwords compatable for decades, you don't remove features that breaks your customer base!

Ken

Your multiple posts make me wonder if you have ever heard of these companies: Microsoft, Apple? They don't seem to think that your absolutes are so absolute.

Posts 139
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 3:59 PM

Russ Quinn:
I'm sure the management at Logos appreciates the passion that is being expressed in these forums.
Live forums are a better sign for the future of a company than dead forums.

I certainly appreciate the opportunity for engaged users to provide invaluable feedback on our product. I value it even more when it is focused, concrete, and constructive. A comment like "i want to click on X and have Y happen" is actionable: i can respond with something useful like

  • it's supposed to do that, but it's broken (and then i can file a bug report) or not yet implemented (but then i can tell you our plans)
  • it doesn't do that because we chose a different design (but maybe i can explain another way to do it, or the best current equivalent)
  • you have to think about this problem in a different way in the L4

Many features aren't nearly this simple, i recognize, and we certainly can't provide every feature that every user desires. But in general, providing actionable feedback goes a long ways toward both meeting your needs and helping us build a better product. Keep it coming!

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 4:04 PM

Thanks, Kevin. I know better and that leaves me without excuse, of course. It's written online in forums, not spoken, so one has ample time to review and weigh these things before smiting the "Post" icon. Something I obviously failed to do in my earlier posts. Embarrassed

So, while I'm at it, an overdue thanks to everyone who so freely shares helpful Libronix 3 and especially now, Logos 4 insight and instruction here and elsewhere. 'Tis greatly appreciated!

 

 

Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro

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