Bugs & Suggestions: Tagging of various "Angels" in Revelation (Biblical Facts Person)

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LimJK | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Dec 31 2012 6:14 AM

Hi All,

Blessed New Year .... and Sorry for a very long post.

I love the Logos 5 tagging of Biblical Facts "Person" that enabled us to do the very valuable clause search. I spent a couple of days over the end of the year counting angels in Revelation :-)

Hopefully Steve Runge would find this useful ... and Thanks to Steve Runge for the labor of love, tagging all these :-)

I am using ESV and Reverse Interlinear to validate (sorry George, I do not know Greek enough to do without Reverse Interlinear),

I use English "Angel" to generate the verse list (these verses cover all occurrences of ἄγγελος in Revelation) and I added some of the referrant by hand if there are issues to point out.  Certainly I missed lots of the other referrant. 

In the PDF I list verse by verse and angel by angel, I used Red for what I thought are Bugs, Green for suggestions.  Please educate me if there are mistake on my part, thank you.  Here is a summary:

1) Suggestion: Person:An Angel => to be tagged for all angels, or at least those that are "angels" as per LN 12 Supernatural beings.

Specifically please add tag of "An Angel" to angels such as:

  • Person:Four Angels
  • Person:Seventh Angel
  • Person:Angel Proclaiming Judgement
  • etc.

Rationale: If I wanted to do a clause search of Person:An Angel ... I should be able get all the above

2) Bug: Person:Seventh Angel 

 Logos defined as "an angel who sounded the trumpet to indicate the mystery of God being revealed."

As I read in English + referring to Reverse Interlinear ...

  • "Seven Angels of Trumpet" and "Seven Angels of Bowl" are all tagged as the "Seventh Angel"
  • It is not the "Seventh Angel"; it is "one of the Seven Angels of ...Trumpet or Bowl"

See PDF on relevant verses where Angels of Trumpet and Bowl are suggested

3) Suggestion: Person:Angel Proclaiming Judgement

In Rev 14:6-13 there are three Angels Proclaiming Judgement Rev 14:6, 14:8, 14:9

Only Rev 14:6 is tagged as "Angel Proclaiming Judgement"

Suggest that Angel in 14:6,8,9 angel be tagged as "Angel(s) Proclaiming Judgement" as a group

4) Suggestion: to include Person:Angels of Harvest

In Rev 14:14-20 "one like a son of man" + 3 other angels in the para on Harvesting

See PDF on relevant verse where Angels of Harvest are assigned 1,2 and 3 for discussion

Suggest these 3 Angels be tagged as "Angels of Harvest", 4 Persons involved here:

  • (a) "one like a son of man" ... harvest with sickle
  • (b) Angels of Harvest (1) ... Calling (a) to harvest
  • (c) Angels of Harvest (2) ... harvest with sickle
  • (d) Angels of Harvest (3) ... Calling (c) "Angel of Harvest (2)" to harvest

5) Bug: Person:Angel offering Incense in Rev 14:19

Rev 14:18 Introduced "another angel" (which is our Angels of Harvest (3) above)and Logos tagged it as "Angel offering Incense" (*see point #6)

Rev 14:19 the "angel" swung his sickle ... (which is our Angels of Harvest (2) above) and Logos wrongly tagged it as "Angel offering Incense"

6) I think some confusion on "Angel offering Incense"

Rev 8:3,4,5 angel is first introduced as "Angel offering Incense" who actually performed the offering of Incense

  •  stood at the altar with a golden censer
  •  given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints ...
  •  ... incense ... rose before God from the hand of the angel
  •  etc ...

Rev 14:18 introduced another angel 

  • came out from the altar...
  • authority of fire
  • called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle

... not obvious that it is the same "Angel offering Incense"? in Rev 8, therefore, suggest to tag differently as "Angel from the Altar"

7) Bug: Person:Jesus (Rev 14:18 "who had" the sharp sickle)

as discussed in Point #4 this should be ...(our Angels of Harvest (2) above)

8) Bug: "Angels of Bowl" in Rev 16:1-17 when introducting each of the seven Angels of Bowl,

Only the "first" angel is tag under "first" and "angel" in English is implied

The "second" to "seventh" angel of Bowl are not tagged not consistent treatment with "first" angel

See PDF on relevant verse where Angels of Bowl are suggested

9) Bug: "Seventh Angel" in Rev 17:1-15 is one of the Seven Angels of Bowl, NOT Trumpet

See PDF on relevant verse where Angels of Bowl are suggested

10) Question on the basis to tag angel as "Angel bringing Scroll" in Rev 18:21,19:9,19:17

See PDF on relevant verse where Angels bringing Scroll on suggestions

7215.Angel.pdf   

 

JK

MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 31 2012 1:39 PM

LimJK:

Hi All,

Blessed New Year .... and Sorry for a very long post.

I love the Logos 5 tagging of Biblical Facts "Person" that enabled us to do the very valuable clause search. I spent a couple of days over the end of the year counting angels in Revelation :-)

Hopefully Steve Runge would find this useful ... and Thanks to Steve Runge for the labor of love, tagging all these :-)

I am using ESV and Reverse Interlinear to validate (sorry George, I do not know Greek enough to do without Reverse Interlinear),

I use English "Angel" to generate the verse list (these verses cover all occurrences of ἄγγελος in Revelation) and I added some of the referrant by hand if there are issues to point out.  Certainly I missed lots of the other referrant. 

In the PDF I list verse by verse and angel by angel, I used Red for what I thought are Bugs, Green for suggestions.  Please educate me if there are mistake on my part, thank you.  Here is a summary:

Peace, Brother!    A wonderful and Blessed and Happy New Year to you!

I'm looking forward to studying the PDF you have attached!   Thank you!      This is also a labour of love and is much appreciated!       *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 31 2012 1:55 PM

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of detailed feedback that Logos needs for the tagging.

My only quibble is the request that they all be labeled "person:an angel". I agree that we should be able to find them all under angel. But we should be able to find them because they are logically all children of angel in the Bible Sense Lexicon. If they were coded as such the precedent would be set to tag other children entries with their parent entry. This would be duplicate coding and another source for error.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 1 2013 4:41 AM

Milford Charles Murray:

Peace, Brother!    A wonderful and Blessed and Happy New Year to you!

I'm looking forward to studying the PDF you have attached!   Thank you!      This is also a labour of love and is much appreciated!       *smile*

Enjoy ... 

JK

MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 1 2013 4:56 AM

MJ. Smith:

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of detailed feedback that Logos needs for the tagging.

My only quibble is the request that they all be labeled "person:an angel". I agree that we should be able to find them all under angel. But we should be able to find them because they are logically all children of angel in the Bible Sense Lexicon. If they were coded as such the precedent would be set to tag other children entries with their parent entry. This would be duplicate coding and another source for error.

MJ,

If Logos can tag it the way you described it will be very valuable

Person:An Angel

!------> Person:Seven Angels of Trumpet

           !------> Person:Seventh Angel of Trumpet

So that in our clause search we can be search All Angels or the group of "Seven Angels of Trumpet" or the specific "Seventh Angel of Trumpet.

JK

MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1

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Steve Runge | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 2 2013 11:16 AM

LimJK:

Hi All,

Blessed New Year .... and Sorry for a very long post.

I love the Logos 5 tagging of Biblical Facts "Person" that enabled us to do the very valuable clause search. I spent a couple of days over the end of the year counting angels in Revelation :-)

Hopefully Steve Runge would find this useful ... and Thanks to Steve Runge for the labor of love, tagging all these :-)

I am using ESV and Reverse Interlinear to validate (sorry George, I do not know Greek enough to do without Reverse Interlinear),

I use English "Angel" to generate the verse list (these verses cover all occurrences of ἄγγελος in Revelation) and I added some of the referrant by hand if there are issues to point out.  Certainly I missed lots of the other referrant. 

In the PDF I list verse by verse and angel by angel, I used Red for what I thought are Bugs, Green for suggestions.  Please educate me if there are mistake on my part, thank you.  Here is a summary:

1) Suggestion: Person:An Angel => to be tagged for all angels, or at least those that are "angels" as per LN 12 Supernatural beings.

Specifically please add tag of "An Angel" to angels such as:

  • Person:Four Angels
  • Person:Seventh Angel
  • Person:Angel Proclaiming Judgement
  • etc.

Rationale: If I wanted to do a clause search of Person:An Angel ... I should be able get all the above

2) Bug: Person:Seventh Angel 

 Logos defined as "an angel who sounded the trumpet to indicate the mystery of God being revealed."

As I read in English + referring to Reverse Interlinear ...

  • "Seven Angels of Trumpet" and "Seven Angels of Bowl" are all tagged as the "Seventh Angel"
  • It is not the "Seventh Angel"; it is "one of the Seven Angels of ...Trumpet or Bowl"

See PDF on relevant verses where Angels of Trumpet and Bowl are suggested

 

Hi LimJK,

I am going to address your comments in two chunks to help make sure I do not miss too much.

First, behold I bring glad tidings of great joy! As of about Christmas time you can search for the super group of which some person or thing is a sub group. This means in the clause search you can presently do the "person:AnAngel" search you requested. This feature has already been deployed.

Regarding your suggested intermediary sub-groupings like the angels of harvest, etc., this is not something we would consider adding anytime soon. There are too many other corrections to data or features like the searching for super groups that are in the cue to consider looks at introducing another level of complexity. Based on a quick scan of your data it looks like you could find these intermediary groups by limiting the search to a specific range of text.

Adding this intermediate level would necessitate the creating a Bible Fact page for each group, since it is not properly a generic. We would also need to identify and evaluate all other candidate entities e.g., soldiers (Roman vs. Assyrian, etc.) or whatever else. Fixing bugs and enhancing functionality of existing data will be a much higher priority for the foreseeable future than adding new levels of complexity to the data.

One of the features we are working actively toward is a way for folks like you to create the kind of more refined data you are asking for. At some later point these data you've created would be sharable, a major motivation for creating the Faithlife community. The data you've suggested is interesting, but is too specific for Logos to pursue creating at this point. Know that we are working on the tools for not only for you to capture or create this kind of data, but also for sharing it with other users. I wish the future was here already, but sometimes it takes time to arrive.

Regarding your other comments, I have downloaded your PDF and will work my way through the potential bugs you've listed but it will not be today. I'll report back with what I've found.

Thanks for the feedback, hope this begins to address your questions.

Regards,

Steve

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LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 2 2013 5:49 PM

Steve,

Thanks for the explanation and a peek into the future :-)

JK

MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 2 2013 5:55 PM

Steve,

A related request ... when I enter "Angel" can the suggested list be color coded, so that we know which one is a) both OT and NT b) OT c) NT

Thanks.

JK

MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 14 2013 4:26 AM

Steve,

You must be busy ... have not heard about the angels ... now I have 15 voices in Revelation. (I thought I will just post here vs a new thread)

In the main I think the person referred to as “Voice Instructing John” in Revelation is not very accurate in most of the verses here ... we need to find a more generic label for the person, such as “Voice John heard” which will cover all the cases here.

See my PDF for the specifics, including 2 miss tags, etc, etc.

PS: the 15 verses, only cover Voices (that are ambiguous, God, Jesus and Holy Spirit ... I excluded all other voices.

2350.Rev - 15 Voices φωνή John heard.pdf

JK

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Steve Runge | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 14 2013 10:19 AM

LimJK:

Steve,

You must be busy ... have not heard about the angels ... now I have 15 voices in Revelation. (I thought I will just post here vs a new thread)

The problem is on our Bible Facts curator's task list. Just checked and she should get to it next week. Any needed changes made to the data will be released in the next build of that particular database. I do not know when that will be, but the issue is being addressed.

LimJK:

A related request ... when I enter "Angel" can the suggested list be color coded, so that we know which one is a) both OT and NT b) OT c) NT

Regarding new features and such, my last answer still holds. Our present focus is on making corrections to datasets before extending any features or displays. There are suggested corrections besides yours, and they are all in a cue. Hopefully we can start thinking about added coolness down the road.

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:40 PM

Bump ...

Wonder if there there is any plan to progress this further, thanks.

JK

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Steve Runge | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 7:32 AM

Bump

The plan is still the same, on a task list awaiting attention. When the data is updated, it will get released in a subsequent update.

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LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2013 9:16 AM

Smile

Steve ... thanks for replying 

JK

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LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 27 2014 5:32 PM

Bump ...

I noticed that there is yet another update on the Referents Database, sadly ... the Angels are still confused in Revelation Sad

JK

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 27 2014 5:48 PM

Peace, Dear Brother!                 I appreciate your efforts "for the Kingdom"!            *smile*           The "voices" .pdf was of personal help to myself and is appreciated     -------         AND            I Thank You!            *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 27 2014 10:30 PM

Smile

JK

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LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 16 2014 12:20 AM

Logos,

Bump ... to hopefully get some attention to fixed the angelic problem in this thread.

JK

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 12:44 AM

This was raised again as unresolved. Comment from Faithlife?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 28 2015 1:49 PM

There's nothing new to report. But in the holiday spirit of the OP Smile I'll pester the editorial department and see if the tagging issues can be prioritized.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 30 2015 3:50 PM

OP has revised the various requests in a new thread in Logos 6 forum.

Dave
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