Looking for a Traditional Evangelical Arminian Systematic Theology ...

Hi everyone,

I wonder if anyone could recommend the best Arminian Systematic Theology around (especially if it is available in the Libronix format).

Thanks in anticipation.

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Todd Phillips

John Miley's seems to be recommended, but it's still on pre-pub: http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4300

Oden's Systematic Theology also has a Arminian viewpoint: http://www.logos.com/products/details/3682
(Though he does present views on each topic from a historical perspective--mainly church fathers--before he gives his own conclusions).

Stephen Paynter

Thanks, Miley's Systematic Theology looks exactly what I was looking for.

Floyd Johnson

I wonder if anyone could recommend the best Arminian Systematic Theology around (especially if it is available in the Libronix format).

A number of years ago I put together a list of Wesleyan-Arminian resources I would like to see in Libronix. Here is that list:

==================================================

Bible Commentaries

1. Wesleyan Bible Study Commentaries (2001 to Present) **

Currently being developed by the Wesleyan Publishing House
(a division of The Wesleyan Church), the following volumes have been
published:

Genesis (out of stock indefinitely) Psalms Proverbs John Acts Romans Ephesians I and II Thessalonians 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon James Revelation (January 2005)

2. Wesleyan Bible Commentary (1966) **

This six volume set, published by the Willam B. Eerdmans
Publishing Company, covers the entire Bible. I have found it to be a
helpful resource to have at my side.

Theological Works

1. Miley, John (1892). Systematic Theology **

I am less familiar with Miley’s work, but Grudem says,
“This is probably the most scholarly and extensive Arminian systematic
theology ever written. Miley was a professor at Drew Theological
Seminary, Madison, New Jersey.” It is available on line at the Internet Archive:

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Miley%20systematic%20theology%20AND%20collection%3Aamericana

2. Pope, William Burt (1880). A Compendium Of Christian Theology.

Pope’s three volume work is both scholarly and easy to
read. It is grounded throughout in scripture. This work is available
on-line as PDF files at

     Volume 1: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2404.PDF

     Volume 2: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2405.PDF

     Volume 3: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2406.PDF

Wayne Grudem (author of Systematic Theology) writes that, “This work
… is one of the greatest systematic theologies written from a
Wesleyan or Arminian perspective.”

3. Watson, Richard (1851). Theological Institutes.

Watson’s work, published in two volumes, is a well-written
work which, though very biblical, has a philosophical bent. It
available on-line at

http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/watson/index.htm

The on-line format is such that it cannot be searched and its
formatting leaves much to be desired for reading. This work is also
available as a PDF file on an AGES CD.

4. Wiley, H. Orton (1940). Christian Theology.

Orton’s is an important work because it was the standard
Wesleyan theology text for Bible College and Seminary students for much
of the latter half of the 20th century. It, however, does not have the
depth of either Watson or Pope (or, Grudem states, Miley). It is much
more a descriptive theology than a systematic theology. It is
available on line at

http://wesley.nnu.edu/holiness_tradition/wiley/index.htm

Study Bibles

1. Reflecting God Study Bible (1998)

This is the Wesleyan edition of the familiar NIV Study
Bible. Besides including a good set of study notes, this edition also
includes a set for essays aimed at helping the believer live a holy
life. Though still available through Christian book distributors, it
does not seem to be available from the Zondervan, the publisher.

2. The Wesley Bible (1990)

Study notes from a Wesleyan perspective are the keynote of
this NKJV bible. This is still my standard Study Bible.

3. The Wesley Study Bible (2009)

A recent Wesleyan study Bible edited by Joel B. Green (from Fuller Seminary) and William H. Willimon (a United Methodist Bishop)

==================================================

Though this original list was created in 2004, I did add this last item to the list of original resources as I typed this note. You will note that I marked several of the items in RED ** to indicate that they are at some stage in the Pre-pub process. I would like to see the remaining items in Libronix, I can only hope.

I hope this list helps.

Yours because His,

Floyd

PS I am not seeing the red or the Arial Black font so I added asterisks to the three items that are in pre-pub.

Floyd Johnson

Miley, John (1892). Systematic Theology **

I just added a link to Miley's Systematic Theology at the "Internet Archive" - this makes all four of the commentaries in my list accessible - though not via LOGOS as of yet. I eagerly await the time when they may all be available.

Blessings,

Floyd

david the psalter

Try this great book

Grace, Faith & Holiness

A Wesleyan Systematic Theology

By: H. Ray Dunning

http://www.nph.com/nphweb/html/nph/itempage.jsp?itemId=083-411-2191

Nathan Lentfer

The Compendium of Christian Theology, 2nd ed., by William Burt Pope (3 Vols.) is in community pricing right now. I don't know when it will be released, but it seems to fit your desire for a "Traditional Evangelical Arminian Systematic Theology." See the link below for more information.

http://www.logos.com/communitypricing/details/5664

Blair Laird

John Miley's seems to be recommended, but it's still on pre-pub: http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4300

Oden's Systematic Theology also has a Arminian viewpoint: http://www.logos.com/products/details/3682
(Though he does present views on each topic from a historical perspective--mainly church fathers--before he gives his own conclusions).

I thought Oden was a moderate calvinist.

Todd Phillips

I thought Oden was a moderate calvinist.

I'll let him speak for himself, and you can decide:

Due to the history of sin, humanity is in far worse shape than a stone or lump of clay, for sinners actively resist their salvation. The potter can mold the clay, but what if the “clay” has a determined will not to be molded? God does not force godliness or regenerating grace upon human beings, for if forced it could be neither truly godly nor truly just. God draws persons toward salvation by calling, illuminating, convicting, and enabling faith wherever there is an opening amid human resistances (John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, step 4, sec. 121, p. 53). It is no simple work for the Spirit to create a pure heart and steadfast spirit, considering our recalcitrance (Ps. 51:10).
Thomas C. Oden, Life in the Spirit : Systematic Theology, Vol. III. (San Francisco, CA: HarperSanFrancisco, 1992), 165.

Blair Laird

I thought Oden was a moderate calvinist.

I'll let him speak for himself, and you can decide:

Due to the history of sin, humanity is in far worse shape than a stone or lump of clay, for sinners actively resist their salvation. The potter can mold the clay, but what if the “clay” has a determined will not to be molded? God does not force godliness or regenerating grace upon human beings, for if forced it could be neither truly godly nor truly just. God draws persons toward salvation by calling, illuminating, convicting, and enabling faith wherever there is an opening amid human resistances (John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, step 4, sec. 121, p. 53). It is no simple work for the Spirit to create a pure heart and steadfast spirit, considering our recalcitrance (Ps. 51:10).
Thomas C. Oden, Life in the Spirit : Systematic Theology, Vol. III. (San Francisco, CA: HarperSanFrancisco, 1992), 165.

Moderate Calvinists also do not believe that God forces regeneration on people apart from faith. Moderate Calvinist holds that faith precedes regeneration and therefore God does not "drag people kicking and screaming into heaven". As Norman Geisler say's "forced love is not love at all, it is rape" So a person is saved by grace through faith.

However doing more research on Oden, it seems you may be right. He has done some work on Wesley etc... I just always thought of him more as a moderate calvinist, then an arminian.

Thanks for that quote.. God Bless..

Todd Phillips

Moderate Calvinists also do not believe that God forces regeneration on people apart from faith.

The reason I didn't say anything else is because "Moderate Calvinist" doesn't have a clear definition that I can point to or even understand. Moderate in what? and how much can Calvinism be moderated before the term loses it's meaning?

Dan Sheppard

2. Pope, William Burt (1880). A Compendium Of Christian Theology.

Pope’s three volume work is both scholarly and easy to
read. It is grounded throughout in scripture. This work is available
on-line as PDF files at

     Volume 1: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2404.PDF

     Volume 2: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2405.PDF

     Volume 3: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2406.PDF

Strange - Arminian theology, coming from a Pope!

Blair Laird

Moderate Calvinists also do not believe that God forces regeneration on people apart from faith.

The reason I didn't say anything else is because "Moderate Calvinist" doesn't have a clear definition that I can point to or even understand. Moderate in what? and how much can Calvinism be moderated before the term loses it's meaning?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Calvinism

This website will give you more information. Ive looked it over and it sums up moderate calvinism pretty well. Also you have a very good point. "moderate what" They seem to strike a balance being calvinistic in their teaching on sovereignty etc. However differing from calvinism on atonement (although they hold to atonement the way calvin taught it) and free will ( although their understanding of free will is not the ability to choose God apart from his grace. That is something which they deny. They are not pelegian, but free will being our ability to believe once God has drawn us apart from regeneration.)

I'll have to stop posting, as I believe I am hijacking the thread.

If you would like to discuss more I would be happy to talk with you in another forum, by email, or chat.

I think you are probably right on Oden though, I am probably wrong. I concluded that after seeing he wrote a book on Wesely

God Bless..

Bryan Brodess

Moderate calvanists hold to these tenents:

·
Total
Depravity: maintains that man's
depravity is “total.” Since the fall of Adam all men are born in sin with
Adam's sin nature. There is no part of man's nature that was not affected by
sin. Man is totally depraved, and unable to change his inherit sin nature. But
total depravity does not mean total inability. Man's will is free to choose the
gift of salvation. The basis or ground of human responsibility is human
ability. Even though man does have a free will, he has no capacity for saving
himself. God graciously draws people to Himself, but free will is the means by
which salvation is received.

·
Unconditional
Election: agree that salvation is an unconditional gift. The question is
not whether there are any conditions for God giving salvation; but whether
there are any conditions for man receiving salvation. Election is unconditional
from the vantage point of the Giver, but there is one condition for the
receiver. Faith is the condition for receiving salvation. Moderate Calvinism
does not have to redefine the word “foreknowledge” in 1 Peter 1:2. Election is “according
to” or “in harmony with” God's foreknowledge. God's election is neither based
on His foreknowledge of man's free choice nor is His election exercised
independent of it. There is no chronological or logical priority of God's
election and God's foreknowledge.

·
Limited
Atonement: agrees with John Calvin who wrote, “Christ
suffered for the sins of the whole world, and in the goodness of God is offered
unto all men without distinction, His blood being shed not for part of the
world only, but for the whole human race.” God sent the Son into the world that
the world through Him might be saved (Jn. 3:17). That's why Jesus is referred
to as the Savior of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1 Jn. 4:14). In dying for the whole
world, Christ tasted death for every man (Heb. 2:9). Jesus is truly the Savior
of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). Atonement is unlimited in scope in that the offer of
salvation is for all men. Atonement is limited in effect in that only believers
are truly saved.

·
Irresistible
Grace: maintains that saving faith
is the God-ordained means for regeneration, and not the result of regeneration.
Regeneration or the new birth takes place at the moment a person trusts in
Christ and not before they trust in Christ. The scriptural order is first faith
and then life.

·
Perseverance
of the saints: teaches preservation of the saints as opposed to
perseverance of the saints. The Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security teaches
that the believer will be preserved by the grace of God. No saint will ever be
lost (even if they die in a sinful state). The believer is eternally secure.
Moderate Calvinists believe in assurance of salvation while on earth .

It would appear the difference between Moderate Calvinists and Arminians is one believes one can lose salvation. One does not.. Does anyone see any other differences?

Blair Laird

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Moderate calvanists hold to these tenents:

·
Total
Depravity: maintains that man's
depravity is “total.” Since the fall of Adam all men are born in sin with
Adam's sin nature. There is no part of man's nature that was not affected by
sin. Man is totally depraved, and unable to change his inherit sin nature. But
total depravity does not mean total inability. Man's will is free to choose the
gift of salvation. The basis or ground of human responsibility is human
ability. Even though man does have a free will, he has no capacity for saving
himself. God graciously draws people to Himself, but free will is the means by
which salvation is received.

·
Unconditional
Election: agree that salvation is an unconditional gift. The question is
not whether there are any conditions for God giving salvation; but whether
there are any conditions for man receiving salvation. Election is unconditional
from the vantage point of the Giver, but there is one condition for the
receiver. Faith is the condition for receiving salvation. Moderate Calvinism
does not have to redefine the word “foreknowledge” in 1 Peter 1:2. Election is “according
to” or “in harmony with” God's foreknowledge. God's election is neither based
on His foreknowledge of man's free choice nor is His election exercised
independent of it. There is no chronological or logical priority of God's
election and God's foreknowledge.

·
Limited
Atonement: agrees with John Calvin who wrote, “Christ
suffered for the sins of the whole world, and in the goodness of God is offered
unto all men without distinction, His blood being shed not for part of the
world only, but for the whole human race.” God sent the Son into the world that
the world through Him might be saved (Jn. 3:17). That's why Jesus is referred
to as the Savior of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1 Jn. 4:14). In dying for the whole
world, Christ tasted death for every man (Heb. 2:9). Jesus is truly the Savior
of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). Atonement is unlimited in scope in that the offer of
salvation is for all men. Atonement is limited in effect in that only believers
are truly saved.

·
Irresistible
Grace: maintains that saving faith
is the God-ordained means for regeneration, and not the result of regeneration.
Regeneration or the new birth takes place at the moment a person trusts in
Christ and not before they trust in Christ. The scriptural order is first faith
and then life.

·
Perseverance
of the saints: teaches preservation of the saints as opposed to
perseverance of the saints. The Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security teaches
that the believer will be preserved by the grace of God. No saint will ever be
lost (even if they die in a sinful state). The believer is eternally secure.
Moderate Calvinists believe in assurance of salvation while on earth .

It would appear the difference between Moderate Calvinists and Arminians is one believes one can lose salvation. One does not..   Does anyone see any other differences?

Yes the other difference is on unconditional election. Arminians believe that election is based on foreknowledge. Moderate Calvinists do not believe it is based on Gods foreknowledge, also election is not done apart from the foreknowledge either. It is done in accordance with his foreknowledge.

Bryan Brodess

Yes the other difference is on unconditional election. Arminians believe that election is based on foreknowledge. Moderate Calvinists do not believe it is based on Gods foreknowledge, also election is not done apart from the foreknowledge either. It is done in accordance with his foreknowledge.

Wow I did not know this. I guess this makes me neither calvanist, moderate calvanist or arminain..

lol....

Blair Laird

LOL

New Category....

Bryan Brodess

LOL">

New Category....

lol what am I?

An Arminian who believes in eternal security.

or a moderate who believes God chose, or elected us based on his foreknowledge of who whould freely recieve his gift, or who would freely reject his gift..

[:S]

I must be in a temporal purgatory..lol

Blair Laird

Lol, yeah moderate calvinists believe that God does not choose us because we chose him, but that he chooses us based on his decision not ours. Soley out of his grace and mercy he chose us. Not because of works of righteousness that we have done but according to his mercy.

But he does not somehow elect apart from his knowledge of who will be saved and who wont. He does not forget or work apart from who he is or what he knows. God is omniscient and he remains omniscient (knowing who will be saved and who wont) when he elects.That is why they believe it is not based on man, it is based on God, but in accordance with his foreknowledge

Geisler wrote an excellent article on the subject in his systematic theology.

http://www.logos.com/productts/details/4660

Bryan Brodess

Lol, yeah moderate calvinists believe that God does not choose us because we chose him, but that he chooses us based on his decision not ours. Soley out of his grace and mercy he chose us. Not because of works of righteousness that we have done but according to his mercy.

But he does not somehow elect apart from his knowledge of who will be saved and who wont. He does not forget or work apart from who he is or what he knows. God is omniscient and he remains omniscient (knowing who will be saved and who wont) when he elects.That is why they believe it is not based on man, it is based on God, but in accordance with his foreknowledge

Geisler wrote an excellent article on the subject in his systematic theology.

http://www.logos.com/productts/details/4660

Maybe we should go to your website to discuss this??

I still do not understand how this type of thinking can be..

Since our "faith" in Christ is not a work.. but is actually the work of God (it is him we are trusting not ourselves) God is not going against his essence by chosing to elect those who knew beforehand would recieve his free gift by their trust in his work and his promises. It is still gods work. (see also john 6.. where Jesus makes it clear when asked what work one must do. that it is the work of GOD that we have faith (believe) in Christ...

From what you just stated, I am as confused as I am with full calvanists.. Why does God chose to save person A and chose to reject person B.. If faith in Christ has nothing to do with either chosing to save or reject.. then why else did God chose to say yes to A and no to B.

on the other hand, if faith is the reason God chose A and lack of faith is the reason God chose not to save B(which is what I believe), then it is completely logical to understand what Gods foreknowledge was in.. Who had ( or will have ) faith, and who will not.

does this make any sense??..lol

Bryan Brodess

by the way your link did not work [:P] lol

Floyd Johnson

2. Pope, William Burt (1880). A Compendium Of Christian Theology.

Pope’s three volume work is both scholarly and easy to
read. It is grounded throughout in scripture. This work is available
on-line as PDF files at

     Volume 1: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2404.PDF

     Volume 2: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2405.PDF

     Volume 3: http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/2401-2500/HDM2406.PDF

You forgot the "smiley". [H]

Strange - Arminian theology, coming from a Pope!