Rejoice Christian Software out of business?

Page 3 of 7 (125 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last »
This post has 124 Replies | 7 Followers

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 9:30 PM

Halo Hound:

however what I am pretty certain of is that a bookshelf in the store costs a lot less then servers and redundant systems. and a store clerk receives a smaller paycheck then a server maintainer. Also, once a book is in your hand there is no responsibility on the part of the publisher to make sure the book continues to work on constantly updated systems. I also doubt the publisher receives nearly as many technical support calls as Logos does.

Your analysis fails to take into account the scale of both systems. You might be correct that one server and one "server maintainer" as you put it, might be comparable to "a" store with "a" bookshelf with "a" book. But if you put one of those bookstores in every city of every state, the costs multiply very quickly. Suddenly you are paying rent for retail space, hiring managers, advertising, warehousing, carrying the cost of inventory, utilities, and thousands of other items.

There really is no debating it ... ebooks are much cheaper to produce and market than printed books. In fact these days most printed books are already produced electronically. Distributing them over the internet adds little to the cost of developement. The only real question is, where does all the savings go? Is it passed onto the consumer, or does it become additional profit for the publisher?

Amazon (a secular for-profit company) is selling the ebooks cheaper than the printed books. Sometimes 50% or below. There is no reason that an electronic copy of the ESV study Bible should cost the exact same price as the hardcover. The hardcover probably costs at least $15 to print, and retails for $50. The Logos version costs a few pennies to store on a server to be downloaded. But what will you pay for it? Unfortunately, the answer to that question is "what will the market bear?". Obviously someone thought the market might balk if it was set higher than the retail price of the real book. So there you have it. $49.99

Amazon sells the hardcover ESV Study Bible for $28. That's over $20 cheaper than Logos sells its unlock code for the free text.

The Kindle edition of the ESV Study Bible by the way: $9.90. $40 cheaper than Logos.

 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 9:39 PM

On 1 Nov 2012, Bob Pritchett (CEO) included profit margin insight => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58026/413124.aspx#413124

Bob Pritchett:

Jacques:
He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.

What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?


For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.


Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.


But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.


So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)


I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)


I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.


(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)


-- Bob

Thankful for many free Logos Bible Software upgrades.  For Logos 5 and 4 on Mac OS X, wiki has a list that goes back to Oct 2009 => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Release_Notes_and_History

Thankful for 365 free ebooks on Vyrso.com since Thanksgiving 2011, which is 356 complete eBooks and 9 Samplers.  Thankful for Vyrso eBooks being searchable in Logos 5 and 4.

Thankful for many free Logos resources => http://www.logos.com/products/search?start=0&sort=pricelo&pageSize=30 that includes Lexham English Bible and Greek New Testament: SBL Edition along with Perseus Collections

Thankful for several large purchase sales, which included resources that were later found to contain gems.

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions: have learned a lot about Logos Bible Software plus have a lot to learn: e.g. Logos Hebrew Morphology.

Thankful for a profitable (Income - Expenses = Profit) reply by Bob Pritchett on 2 Nov 2012 => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58162/414162.aspx#414162

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 4155
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 9:42 PM

Actually John - for one so critical, you certainly don't have all your facts in order. The ESV is available for free from crossway for the Kindle.

Never the less. If you have so much disdain for Logos, kindly return to your kindle.

To do otherwise indicates to the rest of us that you're trolling for emotional response. Pretty sure that is against the rules of the forums here.

Romans 14:19 my friend :)

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 10:00 PM

abondservant:

Actually John - for one so critical, you certainly don't have all your facts in order. The ESV is available for free from crossway for the Kindle.

Never the less. If you have so much disdain for Logos, kindly return to your kindle.

To do otherwise indicates to the rest of us that you're trolling for emotional response. Pretty sure that is against the rules of the forums here.

Romans 14:19 my friend

 

You are mistaken.

The ESV Bible for Kindle is free.

The ESV Study Bible for Kindle is $9.90.

See that? In your haste to make someone else look dumb, you made yourself look dumb Big Smile

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 10:08 PM

John:

You are mistaken.

The ESV Bible for Kindle is free.

The ESV Study Bible for Kindle is $9.90.

See that? In your haste to make someone else look dumb, you made yourself look dumb Big Smile

I can hardly believe you just wrote that! You did not read what abondservant wrote; "ESV for Kindle is free. "

You confirmed the accuracy of what he said and in your own haste to make him look dumb, you confirmed you can actually write a dumber post than you thought he wrote! Go back and reread his post, John. I'm truly amazed.Indifferent

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 10:11 PM

Super Tramp:

John:

You are mistaken.

The ESV Bible for Kindle is free.

The ESV Study Bible for Kindle is $9.90.

See that? In your haste to make someone else look dumb, you made yourself look dumb Big Smile

I can hardly believe you just wrote that! You did not read what abondservant wrote; "ESV for Kindle is free. "

You confirmed the accuracy of what he said and in your own haste to make him look dumb, you confirmed you can actually write a dumber post than you thought he wrote! Go back and reread his post, John. I'm truly amazed.Indifferent

I am becoming more amazed by the minute at how many people on here cannot read. Is it really so difficult to see the difference between "ESV Bible" and "ESV Study Bible"? My post (which abondservant replied to) did not mention the "ESV Bible" for Kindle, nor the fact that it is free. He presumed that I was referring to the free one, and that I was mistaken about the price. Do I really need to explain this? Perhaps YOU should have carefully read the posts before telling me to reread someone elses post. You have now taken the lead for the dumb and dumber contest Yes

Posts 4155
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 10:46 PM

Further interaction with John I'm afraid would simply be feeding the trolls. 

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2013 10:58 PM

abondservant:

Further interaction with John I'm afraid would simply be feeding the trolls. 

Interesting psychological projection when people who act like trolls feel the need to place the label on someone else.

Grow up please.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 4:04 AM
John:
Halo Hound:
however what I am pretty certain of is that a bookshelf in the store costs a lot less then servers and redundant systems. and a store clerk receives a smaller paycheck then a server maintainer. Also, once a book is in your hand there is no responsibility on the part of the publisher to make sure the book continues to work on constantly updated systems. I also doubt the publisher receives nearly as many technical support calls as Logos does.
Your analysis fails to take into account the scale of both systems. You might be correct that one server and one "server maintainer" as you put it, might be comparable to "a" store with "a" bookshelf with "a" book. But if you put one of those bookstores in every city of every state, the costs multiply very quickly. Suddenly you are paying rent for retail space, hiring managers, advertising, warehousing, carrying the cost of inventory, utilities, and thousands of other items. There really is no debating it ... ebooks are much cheaper to produce and market than printed books. In fact these days most printed books are already produced electronically. Distributing them over the internet adds little to the cost of developement. The only real question is, where does all the savings go? Is it passed onto the consumer, or does it become additional profit for the publisher?
I am looking forward to using the Bible Software you develop when you start your new competing Bible software company. It will be very interesting to see what product you will be able to produce and offer for pennies per book once you guit your job, hire a development team, go a year or two seeing no profit, then hire a marketing team to advertise your product so you can get the thousands of customers who will be needed in order to turn a profit (assuming the publishers are on board). Then I will be interested to see how long you will be able to sustain the model without going out of business. 
Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 7:38 AM

Rub-a Dub Dub
Three men in a tub

Nothing he said was false. And by your own admission the Study Bible is not $30, $40, or $50.

I see you still use Libronix 3. Could it just be you are angry with Logos because you won't pay the price for Logos 4 or Logos 5? Aesop's fable of the Fox & The Grapes ends with, "They are probably sour anyway."

My experience with Logos is more like the hidden treasure. I sold all that had and bought over 10,000 books. I think it is great. I would gladly pay $40 for a Japanese Bible in Logos.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 8:03 AM

Well, since I'm a Libronix lover (I just don't understand why people can't see the obvious!), and I'm periodically troll-ish (whatever that is; it seems to be specific to the writer), I agree with John's technical points.  Like others on the forum, I used to work in retail and specifically in demographic sku analysis. 

Believe you me, if an electronic reseller can get past the internet site customer build, software reader, and publisher relationships (all 3 a big challenge), then they're home free. This is due primarily to physical stores having only their own nearby customer base (often with competitors) to work the sales probability equation. And with books that are very finicky (popular today, who cares tomorrow), it's a major markdown, re-distribute, etc problem.

The only thing that can overcome the problem of course is the markup.  So when you see eReader re-sellers using hardcopy markups, then you have to figure they're marketing beyond the literal book (e.g. software features, other parallel products, etc). The books are financing everything else.

But that IS a business model and it's ALSO a customer decision. The contra-argument to the fairness of all of this, of course, is the eReader people making the books effectively non-redistributable. It's this latter part that I would grab my mote and head for the other person's eye; whatever that is spiritual that you might learn from your eBook, you can't happily share (without the other person joining the club and repeating the error).

Now ESV, I don't understand John's comment; I must be blind regarding the Kindle quote. Crossway's long made the file free for download for personal use as had NET (and unlike the others). So if you have a PC you can read either for free (in addition to the online versions). I have both in my own personal software for the post-modern view, and regularly use neither (YLT has personality! As does Darby's notes.).

But AGAIN, I must agree with John. If the publishers of the New New Testament don't offer a FREE copy (for me of course), then they're consciously risky peoples souls for the almight mammon. (You DO know the NNT, as it's popularly referred to, has newly discovered texts! That means YOUR New Testament does NOT. Good luck trying to chat with Saint Peter in an intelligent way.)

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 8:21 AM

DMB:
The only thing that can overcome the problem of course is the markup

The average price I have spent on my Logos library is less than $5 a book. That includes Anchor Yale Bible, NICOT/NICNT, and a host of other premium titles. I believe Bob when he says the profit margin is under one percent. The publishers demand their cut. The authors must be paid. The page scanners are not cheap. The Logos employees have families to feed.

I, too, like Libronix a lot. But John can avoid a lot of personal angst by just ignoring Logos. Libronix will still do everything it could before. Logos 5 can just do more. Whining about a $10 Bible seems socialist to me. Indifferent ("I want it for free.")

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 8:32 AM

Mr. Tramp, I take unbelievable offense at you implying Libronix users and trolls should be included under the mantra of 'socialist'.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with demanding difficult-to-write improvements to Logos software, usability on every possible piece of computer hardware I own, absolutely perfect resource links, and periodically questioning the ability of the Logos developers, while turning my nose up at paying for it.  It's no wonder your first name is 'Super'.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 2853
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 9:07 AM

John:

Not so long ago, God used the printing press to make his word freely available to all men. Today men are using copyright laws to lock it up again. If you pay their price, an arbitrarily set price that in no way reflects the costs of reproduction, they will unlock it for you.

KJV can still be had for $1 in some stores.  It is at least 95% of the Word of God.

And there are free versions of Bible Software available. It is the other 5% and all the goodies that cost. 

[["freely available" Question: what version was given away for free to all takers from day one? I know organizations that give out free bibles but they cost the organization.]]

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 9:10 AM

DMB:
 I see absolutely nothing wrong with demanding difficult-to-write improvements to Logos software, usability on every possible piece of computer hardware I own, absolutely perfect resource links, and periodically questioning the ability of the Logos developers, while turning my nose up at paying for it.

Finally, the voice of reason...

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 9:21 AM

Super Tramp:

Nothing he said was false. And by your own admission the Study Bible is not $30, $40, or $50.

My experience with Logos is more like the hidden treasure. I sold all that had and bought over 10,000 books. I think it is great. I would gladly pay $40 for a Japanese Bible in Logos.

The ESV Study Bible retails at $49.99. Same price as the Logos edition. Nothing I have typed here says otherwise. I tried looking for the hidden treasure too. It locked up a very powerful computer and crashed dozens of times before I ever got to the point where I could look for any treasure.
Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 9:25 AM

DMB:
Mr. Tramp, I take unbelievable offense at you implying Libronix users and trolls should be included under the mantra of 'socialist'.

You're right. I find it hard to believe you are offended because I said "socialist" in reference to wanting Bibles for free instead of paying for them. I was not talking about features or the user interface of the software. I wasn't even saying "socialist" is a bad thing. But no socialist economy that I know of has produced Bible software worth having. In our free enterprise system a company must make a profit to exist. Hence Rosie's statement that Rejoice Christian Software may have operated without a profit for too long and Logos is appropriately priced.

John's beef about Bible unlocks in Logos is without merit. He wants something for free and it shows. It isn't a Libronix thing with him. He'd jump on Logos 5 if they gave it way for free. That is a socialist mindset, IMHO.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 9:26 AM

Halo Hound:

Then I will be interested to see how long you will be able to sustain the model without going out of business. 

In the long run the only model that will "win" is free and open source. And that is as it should be. Nobody can "own" the scriptures.

I have no intention of doing anything you suggest and I have not a clue as to what made you think I did. I am a programmer and I have the technical ability. And if I did take on such a project, I can assure you it would be rock solid and bug free before any "new feature" ever got added.

But why reinvent the wheel? If I want well written commercial Bible software, there is Bibleworks and Wordsearch. And if I want a free package there is eSword and many others.

The important thing to watch is the growing number of FREE resources available on FREE platforms like eSword.

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 9:32 AM

Super Tramp:

Whining about a $10 Bible seems socialist to me. Indifferent ("I want it for free.")

Congratulations, on completely missing the point.

And if spending money on Bible software ensure that a person is NOT a socialist, then you can rest assured I am not. I have spent thousands, and continue to spend money to upgrade my other software. I would also continue spending to upgrade Logos if they could present a bug-free package that was ready for market. I'm not interested in being a perpetual beta tester.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 14 2013 9:46 AM

John:
I am a programmer

Do you get paid to program?                         So much for free source. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Page 3 of 7 (125 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last » | RSS