BDAG Still not included in Gold Edition?

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 1:08 PM

robertdrouhard:
already sank over $1000 for the base collection that was touted as the complete collection for scholars

Since this thread seems unwilling to die, I must ask a question. Where in the advertisement for Scholars Gold does it claim to be "the complete collection for scholars?" I could not find that statement anywhere in the product description.

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Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 6:03 PM

Jack Caviness:
Since this thread seems unwilling to die, I must ask a question. Where in the advertisement for Scholars Gold does it claim to be "the complete collection for scholars?" I could not find that statement anywhere in the product description.

I don't think such a collection could exist!

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 4:01 AM

Mike Aubrey:

Jack Caviness:
Since this thread seems unwilling to die, I must ask a question. Where in the advertisement for Scholars Gold does it claim to be "the complete collection for scholars?" I could not find that statement anywhere in the product description.

I don't think such a collection could exist!

I know, but I kept reading posts that said this statement was in the Scholars Gold advertisement. Since I could not find it there, I wanted to know where the posters had seen it.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 4:20 AM

Jack Caviness:
I know, but I kept reading posts that said this statement was in the Scholars Gold advertisement. Since I could not find it there, I wanted to know where the posters had seen it.

I believe it was in the promotional material a while back when Logos expanded their top package to Gold. It's pretty fuzzy, but the tagline sounds familiar to me. It's a true statement because at the time, Gold was the highest and best package offered by Logos. If one was a scholar and only wanted to buy a base package then Gold would be the most complete. However, Mike is correct. Gold does not contain all the information a scholar will need. It would be impossible to construct such a base package... unless they offered an "everything we publish" package, but who could afford that!

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John Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 9:24 AM

My particular quotation comes directly from the product page for the Original Languages library. There are three examples: 

"Original Languages Library is a complete library of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Latin, and English resources for advanced biblical research."

"Nearly 300 books, grammars, lexicons, and more worth over $4,500.00 in print! Original Languages Library gives you a complete library of books for studying the ancient languages—at 90% off the equivalent print editions."

"Whether you’re an accomplished textual or translation scholar, or you’re learning Greek or Hebrew for the first time, Original Languages Library combines the books you need with the advanced tools of Logos Bible Software 4 in a way that’s right for you."

As can be clearly seen, three times the "complete" claim is made, yet this is obviously not true. This is really a pretty minor problem to solve: just don't use the word "complete" or any of its similes or derivatives. I don't think any of us expects Logos to just give anything and everything, but the advertisement explicitly states that you do, in fact, get "[everything] for studying the ancient languages". 

To be fair, the books included are listed for each package so I don't feel like I was 'duped' or 'tricked' or anything of the sort. I do feel a little shunned in a way and surprised that the standard for ancient Greek biblical study is so far out of reach for nearly everyone and that it apparently is both so precious only a select few could possibly afford it as included in a larger package, yet so evidently un-precious that it cannot be considered worthy to be grouped with the rest of the "complete library for advanced biblical research". It also suggests an interesting comparison with the rest of the tools: the entire OL library is $415 with "nearly 300 resources", yet the addition of one more resource that would truly and honestly make the collection "complete" requires an additional $150, which seems to give an average value of approximately $1.38 per resource. 

This has all been to clarify the disappointment referenced earlier--not to whine about Logos overall. I love Logos and there are several more examples for any given complaint that speak volumes about what they've been willing to do and how they've helped countless pastors, students, teachers, missionaries, and other leaders. But it is precisely for this reason that a more sharp honesty in its advertising is necessary. 

Posts 297
Hapax Legomena | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 9:38 AM

"Complete" does not equal "every."

Where, then, is the LSJ?  Where is BDF?  How about Smyth Grammar?  I could go on.

BDAG is great.  It is not essential.  There are other quality lexicons included in the Original Languges or Scholar's Gold libraries.

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 9:40 AM

And to be perfectly fair with Logos...just like any other seller of a product...there is a certain amount of "puffing" that goes on.

"Complete"

"Best"

"latest"

"Longest lasting"

We all know as consumers that this is the way advertising works...i don't begrudge them their promotion....I accept the fact that I had to buy BDAG extra...that seems to be the norm across the bible software industry....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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John Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 11:01 AM

BradNilsson:

"Complete" does not equal "every."

Where, then, is the LSJ?  Where is BDF?  How about Smyth Grammar?  I could go on.

BDAG is great.  It is not essential.  There are other quality lexicons included in the Original Languges or Scholar's Gold libraries.

"Complete" does equal 'every' relative to the set in question. If I own the 'complete' set of Sherlock Holmes stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, a buyer of that set would expect nothing less than 'every' story in that set, the provision of which would make the set 'complete'. In our particular case, the set in question is the "complete library for original language study", which would--as you pointed out--also include other examples; however, my complaint is not that every other possible tool is excluded, but that a resource such as BDAG is. Certainly other resources could have been included (BDF would be very nice, I agree) but were not. And there are resources included that certainly could have been left out, which is what makes BDAG's exclusion all the more puzzling. My complaint was also not that other quality lexicons weren't included, but that BDAG wasn't. 

Again, this does not render the library useless or poor or anything else; it is a considerable gap in what is presented as "complete". And while companies use superlatives loosely all the time, this does not then change the meaning of the words nor excuse the company from backing up that claim. Further, a simple superlative is one thing, the clarification of that superlative being "everything you need" gives more weight to a fuller use of the superlative rather than a 'gimmicky' sales pitch. 

Just for the record: text makes it really difficult to read the tone someone is using and in a context such as this one a negative tone can easily be superimposed onto the text, especially when an 'argument' is involved. So I would just like to add that I'm 'short' in what I write only to be as clear as I can be and make my point the best I know how; any picture this might have conjured up of a steamy red-faced forum-vulture couldn't be further from the truth. Assuming I'm speaking to brothers here, I love you guys and this is fun stuff. Hopefully peaceful forums such as this can serve to provide impetus for further developments and changes we all wish to see--goals more easily attainable when discussions take place in the way ours has thus far. Have an awesome day, you guys. 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 11:17 AM

BradNilsson:
BDAG is great.  It is not essential.  There are other quality lexicons included in the Original Languges or Scholar's Gold libraries.

On the contrary, BDAG IS essential.  If you don't have BDAG, go, sell your first-born child and buy it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 11:39 AM

JohnWilson01:

"Complete" does equal 'every' relative to the set in question. If I own the 'complete' set of Sherlock Holmes stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, a buyer of that set would expect nothing less than 'every' story in that set, the provision of which would make the set 'complete'.

These two uses of the word "complete" are in different contexts so it's unfair to force the same meaning into both....right?

There is a difference between:

"complete library for original language study",  which is a general phrase and "The complete works of Sir A Conan Doyle" which is a finite set of volumes"...

That seems pretty obvious from where I sit....doesn't that make sense?

 

 

So I would just like to add that I'm 'short' in what I write only to be as clear as I can be and make my point the best I know how; any picture this might have conjured up of a steamy red-faced forum-vulture couldn't be further from the truth.

 

John,

I'm the same way so I understand brother...believe me...I understand.

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 5
John Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 11:51 AM

That does make sense; however, I would contend that both are a finite set of volumes--the difference being a known set not capable of being expanded for one, and the ongoing expansion of the other. At the time of either transaction (purchase of the SAC set or OL library), 'complete' has to be interpreted in light of availability; that is, the complete SAC set may be 'complete' until another volume is found and published, at which point the once 'complete' set no longer is. As regards the OL library, there are indeed a finite number of reference books capable of comprising that set until more are published, translated, &c. Thus, for original languages, there are only so many books that fit into that category, albeit the relative importance assigned to each constituting what could be a more subjective understanding of a 'complete' library is...well...relative and subjective. But the submission to the constituency targeted by the marketing is such that a specific set was in mind and signified 'complete'. In so doing, the company made a decision to consider the set in question 'complete' and thus subjected themselves to scrutiny regarding those kinds of decisions. Hence: the forum. 

Okay, I really need to study now--exegeticals don't write themselves! Although that might be a nice 'feature suggestion'. But then what would be the fun in that?

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 1:21 PM

JohnWilson01:
That does make sense; however, I would contend that both are a finite set of volumes-

 

John,

my point was that one was "general salesmanship"....and the other was a description of the extent of the canon of a writer...

 

hmmm

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 1:50 PM

I don't think you can call any of the Logos collections "Complete" and the reason as I see it - and the reason that Logos has appeal - is the getting in on a base package and then creating your own library (Insert collection) that fits your personal needs and desire. I have migrated from the Pastor's Library through the Scholar's Gold to get certain books where I found a grop of books of interest and the cost of the upgrade made sense. I have added additional target groups of resources as well. I just moved to Platinum because there were a number of books (i.e. AW Pink, BDAG, etc) that individually would be more expensive then going to the Platinum level. Are there books that I probably will not use, certainly as I believe this is true on every collection. But then again "Who knows?" you might find one of those resources of help at some point in time.

Am I upset that BDAG isn't included in Scholar's Gold, not at all. I don't know what parameters Logos uses in determining what resources should be in each package, but I would presume they work to balance usefulness and value that helps someone get their foot in the door. I find that the Scholar's Library is probably one of the best "get your foot in the door" packages.

 

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 13 2010 2:45 PM

JohnWilson01:
My complaint was also not that other quality lexicons weren't included, but that BDAG wasn't. 

I believe the publisher has a dominant influence in this matter. Their contract with Logos could easily include limitations as to price and availability.

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