Translation pet peeve

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Posts 410
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 12:53 PM

George Somsel:

Mitchell:

Sure, but that's an unfortunate circumstance of our present time and we need to deal with it, not put our fingers in our ears. Should we punish people for not being classically educated? Isn't is pretty ungracious to us to say "sorry, you just don't understand English well enough"? Are we that committed to this particular form of language that we can't accommodate our translations to speak to people in the language as they understand it, not as we wish it was understood (or how it used to be understood)?

It's perfectly fair to lament the state of the English language today, but to hold fast to linguistic ideology ceases to be acceptable when it harms actual people who have been caught up, through no fault of their own, in these changes.

  La, la, la, la, la.   Classically educated?  They only need to know their own language (in this case English).  We spend more and more on education and get less and less as a result.  Instead, every schoolboy knows how to put a condom on a cucumber or banana.

Yep. Our education needs work. Until it's fixed though, my point stands.

Posts 411
elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 1:00 PM

George Somsel:

elnwood:

4. Using "they" and "their" as a singular pronoun (NIV2011). I know it's entered modern usage and has a long history of use, but it makes a lot of us cringe, especially when read in public worship.

5. Unnecessary pluralization or shift to second person to avoid masculine pronouns, especially when it obscures OT references to Christ. In some languages it's necessary for comprehension, but not in English.

  Both of these are attempts to eliminate the masculine gender.  This is a tendency in pop culture today.  "He" was formerly the pronoun used when the gender was unknown or could be either, but today babies are "she" (μὴ γένοιτο that anyone should ever use the neuter which was a common practice in Greek).  Similarly others who are already born are routinely verbally transgendered into the feminine.  It's political correctness run amok.  I think they feel that they must make "reparations" for all of those years when the masculine was used.  It amounts to the wussification of society.

The NIV2011 has generally taken a beating, and change #4 is a major pet peeve. That said, in my humble opinion, NIV2011 is a vast improvement over both the NIV1984 and the TNIV in terms of gender.

The NIV1984 which used masculine words even when the Hebrew and the Greek didn't warrant it, and needed to be corrected. For example, anthropoi is consistently translated "men," tis is translated "any man," etc. Even the Colorado Springs guidelines recognized that these could be translated gender-neutrally.

The TNIV was a major offender for #5 above, but that was eliminated in the NIV2011, and the NIV2011 kept a lot of the positive changes from the TNIV ("people" instead of "men," "ancestors" instead of "fathers," etc.)

Posts 8833
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 1:19 PM

Mitchell:

George Somsel:

Mitchell:

Sure, but that's an unfortunate circumstance of our present time and we need to deal with it, not put our fingers in our ears. Should we punish people for not being classically educated? Isn't is pretty ungracious to us to say "sorry, you just don't understand English well enough"? Are we that committed to this particular form of language that we can't accommodate our translations to speak to people in the language as they understand it, not as we wish it was understood (or how it used to be understood)?

It's perfectly fair to lament the state of the English language today, but to hold fast to linguistic ideology ceases to be acceptable when it harms actual people who have been caught up, through no fault of their own, in these changes.

  La, la, la, la, la.   Classically educated?  They only need to know their own language (in this case English).  We spend more and more on education and get less and less as a result.  Instead, every schoolboy knows how to put a condom on a cucumber or banana.

Yep. Our education needs work. Until it's fixed though, my point stands.

It is said of William Tyndale:

"Christ wishes his mysteries to be published as widely as possible. I         would wish even all women to read the gospel and the epistles of St. Paul,         and I wish that they were translated into all languages of all Christian         people, and that they might be read and known, not merely by the Scotch         and the Irish, but even by the Turks and the Saracens. Tyndale exhorted         that it was in the language of Israel that the Psalms were sung in the         temple of Jehovah; and shall not the gospel speak the language of England         among us?... Ought the church to have less light at noonday than at dawn?...         Christians must read the New Testament in their mother tongue. Tyndale         determined to give the English people a translation of the Bible that         even a plowboy could understand."

 

The problem today is that even a HS "graduate" cannot read and understand.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 410
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 1:27 PM

George Somsel:

Mitchell:

George Somsel:

Mitchell:

Sure, but that's an unfortunate circumstance of our present time and we need to deal with it, not put our fingers in our ears. Should we punish people for not being classically educated? Isn't is pretty ungracious to us to say "sorry, you just don't understand English well enough"? Are we that committed to this particular form of language that we can't accommodate our translations to speak to people in the language as they understand it, not as we wish it was understood (or how it used to be understood)?

It's perfectly fair to lament the state of the English language today, but to hold fast to linguistic ideology ceases to be acceptable when it harms actual people who have been caught up, through no fault of their own, in these changes.

  La, la, la, la, la.   Classically educated?  They only need to know their own language (in this case English).  We spend more and more on education and get less and less as a result.  Instead, every schoolboy knows how to put a condom on a cucumber or banana.

Yep. Our education needs work. Until it's fixed though, my point stands.

It is said of William Tyndale:

"Christ wishes his mysteries to be published as widely as possible. I         would wish even all women to read the gospel and the epistles of St. Paul,         and I wish that they were translated into all languages of all Christian         people, and that they might be read and known, not merely by the Scotch         and the Irish, but even by the Turks and the Saracens. Tyndale exhorted         that it was in the language of Israel that the Psalms were sung in the         temple of Jehovah; and shall not the gospel speak the language of England         among us?... Ought the church to have less light at noonday than at dawn?...         Christians must read the New Testament in their mother tongue. Tyndale         determined to give the English people a translation of the Bible that         even a plowboy could understand."

 

The problem today is that even a HS "graduate" cannot read and understand.

They can understand a little, and they can understand even better with inclusive language. Wink

Posts 8833
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 1:39 PM

Mitchell:

They can understand a little, and they can understand even better with inclusive language. Wink

 

Do you honestly think so when some cannot even read their diploma?  Education began with the Church.  Perhaps it is time that the Church once again took education under its aegis.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 14182
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 2:07 PM

Mitchell:
Should we punish people for not being classically educated?

By which I hope you mean Chinese, Sanskrit and Latin with Greek, Arabic and Hebrew optional? The world and the Church are changing, you know.

Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8833
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 2:27 PM

MJ. Smith:

Mitchell:
Should we punish people for not being classically educated?

By which I hope you mean Chinese, Sanskrit and Latin with Greek, Arabic and Hebrew optional? The world and the Church are changing, you know.

Greek isn't optional if you wish to be considered classically educated.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 14182
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 3:13 PM

George Somsel:
Greek isn't optional if you wish to be considered classically educated.

I didn't want to give the West undue influence ... so I had to chose between Latin and Greek. Since Latin has many more important descendents I chose it and treated Greek as a gimme language if you knew Sanskrit and Latin.

Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 14182
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 3:19 PM

Mitchell:
but to hold fast to linguistic ideology ceases to be acceptable when it harms actual people who have been caught up, through no fault of their own, in these changes.

Language is always in a state of flux ... and there are always those who consider linguistics to be prescriptive rather than descriptive. I know because of two repeating dinner table arguments - the "correct" pronunciation of ration and gladiola.Geeked

Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8833
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 3:39 PM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
Greek isn't optional if you wish to be considered classically educated.

I didn't want to give the West undue influence ... so I had to chose between Latin and Greek. Since Latin has many more important descendents I chose it and treated Greek as a gimme language if you knew Sanskrit and Latin.

I think you have indicated that you know Sanskrit, but do you also know Latin?  (Bet you do)

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 410
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 3:58 PM

George Somsel:

Do you honestly think so when some cannot even read their diploma?  Education began with the Church.  Perhaps it is time that the Church once again took education under its aegis.

I'd love to see the Church step it up in education, but I'm not certain how that matters in this discussion. As it stands today (and is likely to stand until your school gets off the ground and spreads across the country), "man" is not gender neutral. 

MJ. Smith:

Mitchell:
but to hold fast to linguistic ideology ceases to be acceptable when it harms actual people who have been caught up, through no fault of their own, in these changes.

Language is always in a state of flux ... and there are always those who consider linguistics to be prescriptive rather than descriptive. I know because of two repeating dinner table arguments - the "correct" pronunciation of ration and gladiola.Geeked

As you may have perceived, I'm a descriptivist, but I don't think you have to be descriptivist to get behind gender-accurate translations. 

Posts 8833
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 4:08 PM

Mitchell:

As you may have perceived, I'm a descriptivist, but I don't think you have to be descriptivist to get behind gender-accurate translations. 

  I kind of walk the line between the two.  A description of practice is somewhat prescriptive for current practice.  BTW:  The use of "man" in a gender neutral sense IS "gender accurate."  I don't favor changing centuries of descriptive prescription simply because a group has suddenly become totally ignorant.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2946
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 4:10 PM

George Somsel:
The translation is perfect !! 
The text is perfect, but the understanding of the said text still has the same issues as any other translation/understanding of the text.

Posts 410
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 4:27 PM

George Somsel:

Mitchell:

As you may have perceived, I'm a descriptivist, but I don't think you have to be descriptivist to get behind gender-accurate translations. 

  I kind of walk the line between the two.  A description of practice is somewhat prescriptive for current practice.  BTW:  The use of "man" in a gender neutral sense IS "gender accurate."  I don't favor changing centuries of descriptive prescription simply because a group has suddenly become totally ignorant.

It's not just "a group." It's caught on in wider use of the English language. Like it or not, masculine pronouns quite simply no longer refer to both genders, and therefore the use of them when a neutral pronoun is called for is no longer accurate. The CBT commissioned a study on this before translation of the NIV 2011 was finalized, their findings can be found here. Here's an example:

1. Generic pronouns and determiners

This part of the study considered the types of pronouns and determiners that are used to refer to indefinite pronouns (such as someone, everybody and one) and non-gender specific nouns (such as a person, each child and any teacher):

A. masculine (he, his, himself, etc.);

B. feminine (she, her, herself, etc.);

C. plural/gender-neutral (they, them, one, themselves, etc.);

D. alternative forms (s/he, him or her, his/her, etc.)

In all the varieties of English analyzed, plural/neutral pronouns and determiners account for the majority of usages.  Between 1990 and 2009, instances of masculine generic pronouns and determiners, expressed as a percentage of total generic pronoun usage in general written English, fell from 22% to 8%

e.g. ‘…when a person accepts unconditional responsibility, he denies himself the privilege of “complaining” and “finding faults.”’

Instances of ‘alternative’ generic pronouns and determiners fell from 12% to 8%.

e.g. ‘Any citizen who wants to educate himself or herself has plenty of sources from which to do so.’

Instances of plural/neutral generic pronouns and determiners rose from 65% to 84%.

e.g. ‘If you can identify an individual who metabolises nicotine faster you can treat them more effectively.’

Figures for the other corpora analyzed in the study are broadly comparable with figures from the general written English corpus both in overall magnitude and in the general trend over time.

Posts 1511
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 4:29 PM

Mitchell:

gender-accurate translations

I am Lost.  

Are gender-accurate translations true to the original wordings [[only men]] or true to  the the "TRUE" meaning of the text in context.  [[gender neutral]]

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 4:49 PM

Interesting flow.

I have never read the verse: "Man cannot live by bread alone, must have woman" what was that chapter and verse again?...

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 5:11 PM

tom:

George Somsel:
The translation is perfect !! 

The text is perfect, but the understanding of the said text still has the same issues as any other translation/understanding of the text.

I believe that you used Bro.George's ""partial quote put of contextual alignment. I am curious to know what point you are attempting to prove/?

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 8833
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 5:48 PM

Room4more:

Interesting flow.

I have never read the verse: "Man cannot live by bread alone, must have woman" what was that chapter and verse again?...

There is no such quote.  "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."  Differently worded according to the version (This is the Authorized Version since that is what I grew up with). 

Mt 4.4 and Lk 4.4 (Some coincidence, no?)

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 6:38 PM

George Somsel:

Room4more:

Interesting flow.

I have never read the verse: "Man cannot live by bread alone, must have woman" what was that chapter and verse again?...

There is no such quote.  "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."  Differently worded according to the version (This is the Authorized Version since that is what I grew up with). 

Mt 4.4 and Lk 4.4 (Some coincidence, no?)

Yuppers, nueter-gender, which way ya wanta go....

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1240
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 27 2013 7:03 PM

Mitchell:

Yep. Our education needs work. Until it's fixed though, my point stands.

This is why we homeschool. My son is in first grade and has better cursive than I do! While I don't think public schools are horrible, most certainly aren't very good compared to what I can give my son at home. Kids now-a-days can't spell, don't like reading, and have ugly print handwriting. Tongue Tied

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