Translation pet peeve

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 4:58 PM

Josh:

It's interesting no one brought up red letter editions of the text.

I haven't seen one for 50 years or so.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 5:11 PM

Wasn't the Torah orginally written in (a column of) smoke? Talmudic I think.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 5:23 PM

I was going to mention 1 Kgs. 7:21...but I didn't want to start any trouble.

Angel

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 5:44 PM

David Paul:

Except the Bible IS a reference work...it is a collection of prophecies that sometimes resembles nothing quite so much as a shoe box crammed full of little scraps of paper with various prophecies scribbled on them...which is one of the reasons folks often find prophecy incomprehensible. It was written that way on purpose. How can a book be "sealed" and yet be the world's best seller? By using phenomena such as the one I just described...among a plethora of others whose purpose is to cause blindness through confusion and false assumptions in readers.

The Bible wasn't always together and structured as it is today. It currently is a collection of various writings and prophecies, yes. But take Paul's letter to the Ephesians for example. This was originally meant to be read by itself and in its entirety.  

Prophetic truth is scattered "here a little and there a little". A program like Logos allows a person to pierce the intentional fog precisely because it isn't tied slavishly to the "delivered" context, because the delivered context, which is slavishly perceived to be "historical narrative", is the fog which must be pierced.

I do not believe that God intentionally planned to make the Bible so "foggy" and complex that He would require a person to have an advanced computer software program, like Logos, to understand its full meaning. I believe what is needed is the Holy Spirit.

Well, there you go. Reading the Bible in the same way you "typically read books" is a process that will doom you to never understand the message YHWH is trying to convey. In case it hasn't occurred to you...the Bible isn't a typical book

I read Paul's letters, well, like letters. I read poems like poems, etc. You want to make God's Word out to be utterly unclear to all those without a computer and this "special knowledge" of this supposed fog.

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 5:50 PM

David Paul:

I was going to mention 1 Kgs. 7:21...but I didn't want to start any trouble.

Angel

Don't tell me to see a prophetic connection between this OT verse and the traditional format of the Bible!

http://www.crossway.org/blog/2006/05/two-column-bibles/

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 5:57 PM
Oh sure, Josh. Ephesians in its entirety. Every pastor knows the 20 minute sermon time limit is tracable back to the early church (no bathrooms at the time). So Ephesians would require at least 3 weeks.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 6:03 PM

DMB:
Oh sure, Josh. Ephesians in its entirety. Every pastor knows the 20 minute sermon time limit is tracable back to the early church (no bathrooms at the time). So Ephesians would require at least 3 weeks.

When did I say it was practical to "teach" or "preach" the book of Ephesians in one sitting? All I said was that it was meant to be "read" in its entirety. Do you really think when the church at Ephesus received the letter they took 3 weeks to read it?

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 6:10 PM

Josh:

DMB:
Oh sure, Josh. Ephesians in its entirety. Every pastor knows the 20 minute sermon time limit is tracable back to the early church (no bathrooms at the time). So Ephesians would require at least 3 weeks.

When did I say it was practical to "teach" or "preach" the book of Ephesians in one sitting? All I said was that it was meant to be "read" in its entirety. Do you really think when the church at Ephesus received the letter they took 3 weeks to read it?

Right now I'm in the middle of preaching through the entire book of Colossians in 6 weeks. I know that the letter was meant to be read out loud in the church. I wonder how long they did take to read it or how often it was originally read. I also wonder how much commentary accompanied the original readings.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 6:49 PM

Josh:

The Bible wasn't always together and structured as it is today. It currently is a collection of various writings and prophecies, yes. But take Paul's letter to the Ephesians for example. This was originally meant to be read by itself and in its entirety.  

Meant by whom? Paul? YHWH? The answers may vary...

...and assumptions may "cloud"...speaking of which...

Josh:

I do not believe that God intentionally planned to make the Bible so "foggy" and complex that He would require a person to have an advanced computer software program, like Logos, to understand its full meaning. I believe what is needed is the Holy Spirit.

Dan. 12:4 So it's just a coincidence that Logos (and its ilk) happened on the scene, offering a never-before-possible-for-human-beings ability to go to-and-fro through Bible texts, lexicons, history, archaeology, commentaries, etc., etc., doing with a simple click unfathomable searches on the most discrete data, all at the (almost) end of the prophesied 2000-year famine of the word, and that is all just happenstance? The very first words I spoke to Bob when I met him at the first Camp Logos for L4 was that I believed Logos was the prime apparatus enabling the fulfilling of the Daniel 12 prophecy...and I only had a thimble-full of the evidence at that time compared to the ocean I have now. The funny thing about the "Bible fog" is that you don't see it if you don't think it exists...and pretty much no one does. Of course, the "coming" (cough, cough) strong delusion will catch everyone off-guard...except for everyone who is reading what I'm saying here...because no one thinks there is the slightest possibility they could be hood-winked. Which is fine...except the strong delusion (identical to the famine of the word) actually comes to an end (for those who will respond) when Anti-Messiah is revealed...it doesn't start there.

Rev. 12:9 isn't just rhetoric...he really does deceive the whole world...because that's the job YHWH gave him to do.

Josh:

I read Paul's letters, well, like letters. I read poems like poems, etc.

Prophecy is crammed into every nook and cranny of the Book...especially in the poetry. The NT books are a checklist of prophecy. Not realizing that means you may as well be reading Dick and Jane Have Fun. Run Spot! Run!

Josh:

You want to make God's Word out to be utterly unclear to all those without a computer and this "special knowledge" of this supposed fog.

Ah, yes...the old "gnosticism" charge. YHWH's truth isn't hidden (Prov. 25:2; Mt. 13:44) in such a way that few find it (Mt. 7:14) because He is just fine with the idea of giving His holy truth to the many (Mt. 7:6, 13). Well, go ahead and call YHWH a gnostic then...if you must. Dan. 12:9, 10.

I prolly wouldn't do that though...I don't think it will turn out well.

Also, I hope you don't assume that the "wicked" are filthy pagans...rather, it is those who call on his name Mt. 7:21, 22, 23; Lk. 13:27 that He has in mind in Daniel 12. Don't generate your own clouds of fog...the ones He wrote into the Book are difficult enough to negotiate. 2 Thes. 2:11-12

Vive Logos!!

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 7:19 PM

MJ. Smith:
I haven't seen one for 50 years or so.
hmmm,  how could this be?  After all, you have to be greater than 50 for this statement to be true.  

I know that you have said that your avatar here on the forums is a much younger you.  Taking this into consideration, the total number of trips that you have made going around the the big ball of fire in the sky that we call a sun can only be 22.51 times.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 7:31 PM

Josh:

David Paul:

I was going to mention 1 Kgs. 7:21...but I didn't want to start any trouble.

Angel

Don't tell me to see a prophetic connection between this OT verse and the traditional format of the Bible!

LOL...no, this was directed more at Denise and her idolatrous "column" allusion.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 8:58 PM

tom:
 Taking this into consideration, the total number of trips that you have made going around the the big ball of fire in the sky that we call a sun can only be 22.51 times.

I'd do better at claiming that's correct if I hadn't celebrated by Mother's 98th birthday today. Of course, I might have been a late in life surprise.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 9:07 PM

MJ. Smith:
Mother's 98th birthday
God bless her!

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2013 10:29 PM

David Paul:
So it's just a coincidence that Logos (and its ilk) happened on the scene, offering a never-before-possible-for-human-beings ability to go to-and-fro through Bible texts, lexicons, history, archaeology, commentaries, etc., etc., doing with a simple click unfathomable searches on the most discrete data, all at the (almost) end of the prophesied 2000-year famine of the word, and that is all just happenstance? The very first words I spoke to Bob when I met him at the first Camp Logos for L4 was that I believed Logos was the prime apparatus enabling the fulfilling of the Daniel 12 prophecy...and I only had a thimble-full of the evidence at that time compared to the ocean I have now.

I've always wondered what Calvin or Spurgeon would have done with Logos! But, I'd have to say, I actually think Biblical illiteracy is higher now (in spite of all this technology) than it was 100 years ago.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2013 5:24 AM

Josh:

David Paul:

I was going to mention 1 Kgs. 7:21...but I didn't want to start any trouble.

Angel

Don't tell me to see a prophetic connection between this OT verse and the traditional format of the Bible!

http://www.crossway.org/blog/2006/05/two-column-bibles/

Josh!      *smile*                            Thank you for that link!               Fascinating!              Peace to you!                 and      Peace to all!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2013 12:50 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Right now I'm in the middle of preaching through the entire book of Colossians in 6 weeks. I know that the letter was meant to be read out loud in the church. I wonder how long they did take to read it or how often it was originally read. I also wonder how much commentary accompanied the original readings.

These are all good questions. Especially the last one.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2013 6:48 PM

Josh:

Bruce Dunning:

Right now I'm in the middle of preaching through the entire book of Colossians in 6 weeks. I know that the letter was meant to be read out loud in the church. I wonder how long they did take to read it or how often it was originally read. I also wonder how much commentary accompanied the original readings.

These are all good questions. Especially the last one.

They are curious questions, to be sure. I also think they are utterly irrelevant. The letter wasn't written for the Colossian, it was written to them. It was written for those upon whom the end of the age has come...which would be us (unless a possible but I think rather unlikely scenario was in effect). Although Paul was himself addressing individual churches with their individual issues, YHWH had much broader and more profound interests in mind. Yes...you guessed it...all them being intimately prophetic.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 5:02 AM

David Paul:

Josh:

Bruce Dunning:

Right now I'm in the middle of preaching through the entire book of Colossians in 6 weeks. I know that the letter was meant to be read out loud in the church. I wonder how long they did take to read it or how often it was originally read. I also wonder how much commentary accompanied the original readings.

These are all good questions. Especially the last one.

They are curious questions, to be sure. I also think they are utterly irrelevant. The letter wasn't written for the Colossian, it was written to them. It was written for those upon whom the end of the age has come...which would be us (unless a possible but I think rather unlikely scenario was in effect). Although Paul was himself addressing individual churches with their individual issues, YHWH had much broader and more profound interests in mind. Yes...you guessed it...all them being intimately prophetic.

I don't agree with your statement that these questions are "utterly irrelevant". From my perspective knowing the answers to these questions could help us to understand how best to present and teach the Word in our time. I also think that the Colossian letter was written both to and for the them. Why else would Paul say to share the letter with the church at Laodicea and in turn read their letter in Colossae? Not only was it written to and for them but it is also written for us.

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Mark O'Hearn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 10:13 AM

Justin,

I appreciate you taking the time in your earlier post (March 1, 2013) to contribute to the discussion and to provide some relevant quotes concerning preachers and their handling of Scripture in the original languages.  Though my thoughts were meant for all believers, I certainly would not argue that the task of preaching is nearly an “impossible” one requiring a great deal of prayer and careful study.  It is truly overwhelming when one thinks about it.

Reading some of A.W. Tozer’s thoughts on the Holy Spirit last night, and what was missing (or probably assumed by us) was John 3:27.  I particularly enjoyed this comment from Tozer that I think is relevant to our discussion:

“Fundamentalism has stood aloof from the Liberal in self-conscious superiority and has on its own part fallen into error, the error of textualism, which is simply orthodoxy without the Holy Ghost.  Everywhere among Conservatives we find persons who are Bible-taught but not Spirit-taught.  They conceive truth to be something which they can grasp with the mind.”

It is this sentiment that I was appealing to without trying to deprive any Spirit-filled believer from the value and importance of using original language resources in the study of God’s Word.  Indeed, while “everything else is a translation,” let all boasting be only in the Cross.  I remain convinced there are some who boast elsewhere in the church, a phenomenon that sadly began way back in the first century (A.D.).

Finally, I understand both Tozer, and another fellow I enjoy reading, C.S. Lewis, never had theological training (well, the kind that comes from universities anyway), but I marvel what was accomplished through both.  Of course C.S. Lewis was a very educated Irishman (as we all know Irish believers are the best – kidding but you did notice my last name, right?) from Oxford who was privately tutored in Greek, and it was said that he knew Greek as well as English when he died.

Regards

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Mark O'Hearn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 10:13 AM

Josh,

You have raised some worthwhile aside issues with regards to translations, that being the mechanics of producing the books themselves.  Red lettering is an invention, of course, but my preference to have it removed is rooted in the comfort of the reader more than anything else.  Related to that is the need for comfortable font size, and more relevant to the topic of study, paragraphed in order to aid the English student in following the thought of the writer.  All these preferences really make a difference in the second, third, fourth, etc. hour of study.  I have personally found switching to an e-book reader a great help with regards to these matters.

I agree that book study is probably the best way to undertake our studies.  I understand most were read out loud in one setting (thinking of the Epistles), but was that the case for the larger ones like Corinthians and Romans?  If so, I guess first century believers afforded more than 20 minutes for public speaking.  If context is “king,” then a book study is usually the best way to ascertain context, though admittedly the author has not fully developed a particular topic/theme, so one must examine all relevant Scripture from a topical study methodology.

Regards

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