Logos March Madness—Round 1

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 10:42 PM

I'm not a huge fan of Comfort... I do like how he forces people to come to grips with their sin, before he presents the Gospel. 

My level of exposure to his writings is VERY peripheral. That said, there are division within the catholic church? I wonder if he could have come across a revisionist congregation (diocese?). There have been a few bad eggs in the catholic church throughout history (and in protestant history), this could be an example where he came across one such seed, and as a result came to believe the words of the one man, were representative of the denomination. 

I'm not catholic. Maybe its more monolithic than I perceive it to be. But I think not. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 7:20 AM

David Carter:
There is more chance of Joel Osteen being the next Pope than there is of Logos offering an entire author's works.

Then get ready for Osteen to fly to Rome. Logos did indeed have a sale on one author that included everything he has written. That was Charles Stanley. Big Smile I know because I nabbed everything. I think it was just last year.

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David Carter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 9:43 AM

Super Tramp:

David Carter:
There is more chance of Joel Osteen being the next Pope than there is of Logos offering an entire author's works.

Then get ready for Osteen to fly to Rome. Logos did indeed have a sale on one author that included everything he has written. That was Charles Stanley. Big Smile I know because I nabbed everything. I think it was just last year.

I don't believe it was part of March Madness though which is the context of my statement Wink The point is if people think Logos are going to offer all the titles of all the authors featured in March Madness at a discount, they are going to be sadly disappointed.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 10:32 AM

David Carter:
I don't believe it was part of March Madness though which is the context of my statement Wink The point is if people think Logos are going to offer all the titles of all the authors featured in March Madness at a discount, they are going to be sadly disappointed.

It wouldn't be Logos keeping us from getting all titles of all authors. Getting the publishers to all agree to an open-ended sale such as March Madness would be virtually impossible. A lot of the modern stuff would likely be restricted by licensing agreements. Sad, but true.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 11:14 AM

elnwood:
Ray Comfort is correct. the Roman Catholic list of the Ten Commandments omits the part about graven images,

I do wish on this and many other topics, forums users would check their facts. It would make me feel much better about the users' accuracy in interpreting scripture. As a useful exercise, build yourself a table of the ten commandments as given by Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican and Lutherans ... noting whether Exodus or Deuteronomy is the base.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 11:28 AM

abondservant:
There have been a few bad eggs in the catholic church throughout history (and in protestant history), this could be an example where he came across one such seed, and as a result came to believe the words of the one man, were representative of the denomination. 

Please reassure me that neither the readers or the authors of products in Logos are really that stupid, sloppy, ignorant, willfully uninformed ... Unfortunately, experience tells me that incredible as it sounds, it is possible. However, I've not seen this particular issue as one of much internal debate, although Catholics would not particularly get hung up on which of the common divisions into 10 someone chooses to use.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 12:17 PM

elnwood:

Jack Caviness:

Mathew Haferkamp:
   I like Ray Comfort, and he has done some good books

You might take a look at my review of God Doesn't Believe in Atheists for a different perspective on this author

God Doesn’t Believe in Atheists: Proof That the Atheist Doesn’t Exist

Jack, Ray Comfort is correct. the Roman Catholic list of the Ten Commandments omits the part about graven images, although Catholic Bibles of course still have those verses in them. Look at any Roman Catholic list of the Ten Commandments.

For example, this one from the Vatican which lists the Ten Commandments in parallel with Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

As for the reason why that verse is omitted from the list, I cannot verify whether Comfort is correct that it has to do with graven images used in Roman Catholic worship.

One perspective, based on a Vatican website that has the heading "Catechism of the Catholic Church", which is missing the phrase in question...

fgh:

elnwood:
the Roman Catholic list of the Ten Commandments omits the part about graven images

No, it doesn't. They see it as part of the first commandment, just as Lutherans and Jews do (though Jews call it the second word instead).

elnwood:
Look at any Roman Catholic list of the Ten Commandments.

"Article 1

The First Commandment

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
It is written: “You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”"   (italics mine)

Catholic Church: Catechism of the Catholic Church. 2nd Ed. Washington, DC : United States Catholic Conference, 2000. #2083.

It's hard to find a more authoritative list than the CCC...Wink

On the other hand, as a Swedish Lutheran I can testify that I virtually never see those words included in our lists... They're not in the list in the Small Catechism, and not in the list in the Large Catechism. I guess you (and Comfort) are beating the wrong horse... Wink

As for why, the CCC's explanation can be found in #2129-32 (logosres:catcathchrch;ref=CCC.CCC_2129 for those who have it in Logos), #1159-62 (logosres:catcathchrch;ref=CCC.CCC_1159), and 476-77 (logosres:catcathchrch;ref=CCC.CCC_476).

...and another perspective that disagrees with the first and refers to something call the "Catechism of the Catholic Church".

Hmmmm. Well, I find it hard to be very critical of someone who gets their info from a Vatican website--it should be an accurate ennunciation (no pun intended) of the Vatican view. If it's wrong, okay...but who's to blame for that? The quote fgh provides includes the verses the website doesn't. Fine, I can accept that. But I don't think Catholics should get hot under the collar (again, no pun intended...really, I'm just finding these as I go along Stick out tongue ) if an inaccurate statement is made based on inaccurate Catholic (Vatican, no less!) information. I was under the impression that some "tampering" with the Ten Words had taken place too, at one time. The reason can't be labelled bigotry or the like when the documented source of the confusion is the Catholic church itself.

That said, I'm all for accuracy. That even includes accurate representations of inaccurate viewpoints.

Fwiw, I think the three "you shall..." statements (prior to the "Remember..." that nearly everyone ignores) are the most logical demarcations of the "words" YHWH had in mind.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 12:44 PM

David Paul:
Well, I find it hard to be very critical of someone who gets their info from a Vatican website--it should be an accurate ennunciation (no pun intended) of the Vatican view. If it's wrong, okay...but who's to blame for that?

Is it too much to ask that people recognize that there exists in the world, written objects that:

  • summarize
  • simplify for didactic purposes
  • make reference assuming the reader can fill in the content
  • refer only to pieces of information that are relevant to the topic at hand
  • represent less than a complete description of everything known about a topic (oh, wait, that's all written communication)

There are some very important documents known as the Gospels which seem to also exhibit these characteristics.

David Paul:
when the documented source of the confusion is the Catholic church itself.

Rather, the source of the confusion lies with the reader who fails to read a document in its context - something required in all reading. I would never take a quote from a single source on a Baptist site and read it without (a) verifying that it used words in the same sense I am taking them (b) verifying that I can find the same point made in other Baptist documents and (c) that I understand the context and purpose of the document I am quoting. In fact, I would make the same demands of myself if reading an analysis of a poem.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 12:54 PM

MJ. Smith:

abondservant:
There have been a few bad eggs in the catholic church throughout history (and in protestant history), this could be an example where he came across one such seed, and as a result came to believe the words of the one man, were representative of the denomination. 

Please reassure me that neither the readers or the authors of products in Logos are really that stupid, sloppy, ignorant, willfully uninformed ... Unfortunately, experience tells me that incredible as it sounds, it is possible. However, I've not seen this particular issue as one of much internal debate, although Catholics would not particularly get hung up on which of the common division into 10 someone chose to use.



One would hope. However as a business, the business has to provide what sells. I'm choosing to give Comfort the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this issue - that he's miss-understanding vs. being malicious. Even if that makes him a sloppy "scholar" (a term I hesitate to use as scholarly works provide sources, something I don't believe he does, we just have to trust his word on things).

People make millions of dollars every day selling books that misrepresent different groups in egregious ways. Any book published by an American company on the topic of Islam is a good example. Seemingly without exception (I can think of two authors off the top of my head) their books try to sell fear, rather than Gospel.

I'm also not aware of their being common divisions of the 10? Can you enlighten me on that subject?

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elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 1:06 PM

I'm going to make another post about the Ten Commandments, and I'm going to post nothing but the facts.

1. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, there is a chart showing "Traditional Catechism Formula" in parallel with Exodus and Deuteronomy. The part "You shall not make for yourself a graven image" is not in the Traditional Catechism Formula.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

2. In the same Catechism of the Catholic Church, there is an article on the First Commandment, which includes a section marked "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

3. This section contains the following:

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . " (Deut 4:15-16). It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works" (Sir 43:27-28). He is "the author of beauty" (Wis 13:3).

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim (Cf. Num 21:4-9; Wis 16:5-14; Jn 3:14-15; Ex 25:10-22; 1 Kings 6:23-28; 7:23-26).

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it" (St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18,45:PG 32,149C; Council of Nicaea II: DS 601; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1821-1825; Vatican Council II: SC 126; LG 67). The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,81,3 ad 3).
 
2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.

So to summarize, it's omitted from the Traditional Catechism Formula, but the Catechism includes it as a part of the first commandment, but it says that this prohibition was changed because of Christ's incarnation.

So there are the facts. You can decide for yourselves whether you think the Roman Catholic church deleted the prohibition of graven images from the Ten Commandments or not.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 1:13 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments wikipedia gives you Philo, Augustine and the Talmud.

http://prayerfoundation.org/ten_commandments_different_versions.htm gives Jewish, Anglican/Reformed, Eastern and Catholic/Lutheran. The difference between Catholic and Lutheran is given as a footnote.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 1:25 PM

elnwood:
So to summarize, it's omitted from the Traditional Catechism Formula

elnwood:
, there is an article on the First Commandment, which includes a section marked "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."

i.e. it is omitted from the didactic version but included doctrinally.

elnwood:
it says that this prohibition was changed because of Christ's incarnation.

refer to the iconoclastic contravention of the 8th and 9th centuries to put this statement into context as the paraphrase is not an accurate representation of the intended meaning. Think more along the lines of "because Jesus took on a fleshly body, it is lawful to create human images of Jesus".

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 1:33 PM

I had hoped this discussion would die down, but since not:

David Paul:
I don't think Catholics should get hot under the collar

I'm too lazy to check, but if I remember correctly there were no Catholics in this discussion until MJ just turned up. The defense of Catholicism came from one Baptist and two Lutherans. 

David Paul:
Hmmmm. Well, I find it hard to be very critical of someone who gets their info from a Vatican website--it should be an accurate ennunciation (no pun intended) of the Vatican view. If it's wrong, okay...but who's to blame for that?

There's nothing wrong with the link as such. It's in the Catechism all right. It just isn't the 'Catholic list of the ten commandments', so to speak. It's an introductory comparison chart between Exodus and Deuteronomy, with the 'short version' of the commandments that has often been used in catechetical tradition next to it. It's actually positioned between two sections -- before "SECTION TWO - THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" 'officially' starts -- and doesn't even have a paragraph number of its own. The list of the full version of the commandments -- with long expositions -- only starts several pages later. You know what they say about using a text without checking the context...

Let me also point out again that while Catholics and Lutherans don't make this a separate command, neither do Jews. And while Reformed do make it a separate command, so do the Orthodox. So you have iconoclasts on both sides, and iconophiles on both sides. 

EDIT: I guess I missed a few posts while I wrote...

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 1:34 PM

Thanks!

I could see where someone could be confused by the vatican document previously linked.

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Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 5:22 PM

D. L. Moody was once criticized by fellow ministers for not attacking what these ministers considered "the false teaching" of certain groups. 

Moody answered, "I am determined not to talk up anything but Jesus, and not to talk down anything but sin."

I have not always followed Mr. Moody's advice, but I have always regretted when I did not follow it.  That includes some comments I made on this forum very recently about one of the authors in Logos March Madness.  What I said was inappropriate.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 5:29 PM

Michael Childs:

D. L. Moody was once criticized by fellow ministers for not attacking what these ministers considered "the false teaching" of certain groups. 

Moody answered, "I am determined not to talk up anything but Jesus, and not to talk down anything but sin."

I have not always followed Mr. Moody's advice, but I have always regretted when I did not follow it.  That includes some comments I made on this forum very recently about one of the authors in Logos March Madness.  What I said was inappropriate.

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elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 5:38 PM

MJ. Smith:

elnwood:
So to summarize, it's omitted from the Traditional Catechism Formula

elnwood:
, there is an article on the First Commandment, which includes a section marked "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."

i.e. it is omitted from the didactic version but included doctrinally.

MJ Smith, not trying to start an argument, but I do want to clarify. In what sense is it included doctrinally? In other words, according to Roman Catholicism, what is forbidden by "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ." that isn't already forbidden in the First Commandment?

MJ. Smith:
elnwood:
it says that this prohibition was changed because of Christ's incarnation.

refer to the iconoclastic contravention of the 8th and 9th centuries to put this statement into context as the paraphrase is not an accurate representation of the intended meaning. Think more along the lines of "because Jesus took on a fleshly body, it is lawful to create human images of Jesus".

Yes, that is the reasoning ... but not just of Jesus, but "also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints" according to the Catholic Catechism.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 6:33 PM

elnwood:
clarify. In what sense is it included doctrinally?

I was merely pointing out what fgh pointed out more explicitly.

fgh:
It's an introductory comparison chart between Exodus and Deuteronomy, with the 'short version' of the commandments that has often been used in catechetical tradition next to it. It's actually positioned between two sections -- before "SECTION TWO - THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" 'officially' starts -- and doesn't even have a paragraph number of its own. The list of the full version of the commandments -- with long expositions -- only starts several pages later.

elnwood:
according to Roman Catholicism, what is forbidden by "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ." that isn't already forbidden in the First Commandment?

As has been said many times, the Catholic church is neither specifically Roman nor monolithic. I was merely pointing out the presence of the entire text of the 10 Commandments - Exodus and Deuteronomy in Catholic doctrine. Western and Byzantine Catholics most likely disagree on the "common" division.

elnwood:
that is the reasoning

Read the historical documents of the iconoclastic controversy and place it in the context of the spread of Islam.

A comparison just for the fun of it:

 

Verses of the Exodus Ch. 20

Parallel Verses of the Quran

3: “Do not worship any other gods besides me.”

“And your Lord has ordained that you should not worship anyone except Him” ( 17:23 )

4-6: “Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish. You must not bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate Me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. But I lavish my love on those who love me and obey their commands even for a thousand generations.”

“And shun unclean idols” ( 22:30 )

“When Abraham said, O my Lord,… and save me and my offspring from worshipping idols” ( 14:35 )

“When Abraham said to his father… do you adopt idols as your things of worship? I see you and your tribe in open error” (6:74)

“When (Abraham said to his father and tribe,”What are these images that you sit around? They said, “we found our ancestors worshipping them. (Abraham) said, “Verily, you and your ancestors were in open error” ( 21:52 -54)

7: Do not misuse the name of your LORD the God. The LORD will not let you go unpunished if you misuse His name.

“And do not make Allah a target for your oaths for doing good or avoiding evil or reconciling people (2:224)

8-11: “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy. Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work. But the seventh day is the day of rest, dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; then He rested on the seventh day. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

And We said to them, “Do not violate Sabbath, and We took from them a solemn Covenant” (4:154)  

“He created the heavens and the Earth in six days, and then He settled down on the Throne to administer matters”. (10:3)

“Everyday He is busy in a new way” (55:29)

“Neither drowsiness nor sleep overcomes Him…He is not fatigued by taking care of both (Heavens and Earth)”. (2:255)

12: “Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the LORD your God will give you.

“And your Lord ordains that you do not worship anyone but only Him, and do good to your parents. If they reach old age before your eyes, any one of them or both, then do not say a word of criticism to them and do not scold them, rather speak kindly to them. And lean your wing of humility towards them and pray, ”O Lord, have mercy on them as they had brought me up since my childhood” ( 17:23 -24)

13: “Do not murder.

“And do not kill anybody that Allah has prohibited except when you have a right to kill” (6:151)

14: Do not commit adultery.

“And do not even go near adultery. It is open vice and bad way” ( 17:32 )

15: Do not steal.

“As to the thief (man or woman) let their hands be cut off, a retaliation for what they did, a punishment from Allah. ( 5:38 )

16:” Do not testify falsely against your neighbor.

“And They (Servants of God) do not testify falsely.” (25:72)

17: “Do not covet your neighbor’s house. Do not covet your neighbor’s wife. Male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else your neighbor owns.”

“And do not covet what Allah has favored some of you over others.( 4:32 )

“And do not stretch your eyes towards what We have provided some of them.” (15:88)

 

elnwood:
"also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints"

and in social context, of cats, dogs, kings, elephants ...

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L.D. Young | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 7:25 PM

I thought this thread was about Logos March Madness - Round 1. Hmm

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 7:56 PM

Evidence that we need mind mapping in Logos?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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