Is it just me, or...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 7:49 PM

Gary Osborne:
The ratio of Reformed material to Pentecostal material is not even close to being balanced. 

Sheer curiosity - what is the ratio of adherents in the two groups?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 8:45 PM

MJ. Smith:

Gary Osborne:
The ratio of Reformed material to Pentecostal material is not even close to being balanced. 

Sheer curiosity - what is the ratio of adherents in the two groups?

Do you mean worldwide, North America, or Logos users. I'd suspect different numbers for each.

Pentecostals (including all stripes - not just 'classic Pentecostalism'), vastly outnumber non-Pentecostal protestants in most of the 3rd world. I just read a wikipedia article that claimed that classic Pentecostal denominations have more members than their protestant counterparts (including Reformed, I assume). My guess is that among Logos users there is a higher number of Reformed than Pentecostal, and I suspect that we Reformed Logos users outnumber Pentecostal Logos users by a large margin.

But there is more than one reason for this. One obvious reason is that there is a heavy emphasis on Reformed materials. The other is that it's in the nature of the Reformed movement to both produce and study academic as a method for more deeply understanding the Bible itself. Pentecostalism has been skeptical of academia, and academia has been quite unkind to Pentecostalism, creating a mutual dislike. This is changing (thankfully), and many Pentecostals are following the likes of Gordon Fee and entering academia as Pentecostals, and finding it a positive experience.

There is also, in Pentecostalism, a strong tendency to emphasize the experiential side of spirituality (vis a vis the intellectual side, favored by us Reformed types). Pentecostal books are published by the dozen, but are not generally reference works (which Logos has up to know focused on). I don't say that as a negative comment, but as an observation. Personally, I have several of these books, I love reading them, and find them spiritually helpful. I don't know, however, if I would benefit from having them in Logos. Vyrso, yes; Logos, not so much.

At least these are my observations as one who grew up in the Reformed tradition and has been profoundly impacted by Pentecostals, Charismatics and the Third Wave. I've got my foot in both worlds, and I hope I've been fair to both.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Michael Anda | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 11:02 PM

I'm a hybrid, too.  Praise YHWH.  Geeked

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 4:38 AM

Super Tramp:
I saw your review of Ray Comfort's book. Do you think it is possible Comfort is unaware of the other list of commandments?

Then, he should not be writing a book that supposedly presents the case of Christianity. He denigrates a large segment of Christendom without adequate research. How does he expect to influence atheists with such sloppy "scholarship"?

Super Tramp:
I would buy The School of Evangelism, if I didn't already have it. 

Having previously seen the entire series of both the basic and intermediate "The Way of the Master", I will pass on this one.

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 6:20 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

At least these are my observations as one who grew up in the Reformed tradition and has been profoundly impacted by Pentecostals, Charismatics and the Third Wave. I've got my foot in both worlds, and I hope I've been fair to both.

Richard, that was a very fair and very accurate "snapshot" of the situation.  Bravo for being completely fair to both groups.  Yes

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 6:53 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
But there is more than one reason for this.

I think you nailed it in a clear and unbiased way. Thank you for your eloquence.

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Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 5:26 PM

Richard, what would your definition of Pentecostals/ism be?

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 6:55 PM

Robert Wazlavek:

Richard, what would your definition of Pentecostals/ism be?

That's a bit of a moving target, as Pentecostals themselves differ on some things. But a 'classical Pentecostal' believes that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Charismatics (generally) don't require that, nor do 3rd Wave. But in another sense charismatics, and 3rd Wave sometimes call themselves Pentecostals. Usually Pentecostals believe in all the gifts of the Spirit and in miracles today, but I know of Pentecostals (AG & 4Square) that don't "get into that stuff much anymore." (Strange, IMHO)

Also, when I talk about Pentecostals, I'm talking about a historical stream, not a set of beliefs.

I don't think any definition of Pentecostalism works except this one: Pentecostals are those who call themselves Pentecostals. I'm sure many Pentecostals would disagree.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 7:47 PM

Being a classical Pentecostal myself, I'd like to jump in and say that at our roots, the distinguishing feature is of course going to relate to "Pentecost" (i.e. the Day of Pentecost).  A true Pentecostal is going to believe that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, or being filled with the Spirit (if you prefer), is subsequent to salvation and is not synonymous with salvation.  And that this gift is available today for every Christian.  Tongues being the initial, physical evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit is generally also a strongly held belief. 

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2013 8:37 PM

Michael Childs:

The problem with Swaggart is not that he is Pentecostal.  There are many Pentecostals I respect.  (Jack Hayford and the late David Wilkerson are examples.)  The problem is that both this man's lifestyle and scholarship have been terrible.  His moral failings, along with the opulent lifestyle, are well documented.  Then there is the fact that he makes statements like "the original Greek says", and then says something that would make a first semester Greek student laugh out loud.  The man's a fraud, plain and simple. I could never vote for him.

  Sad, but so true! And nobody is judging him because things fall by their own weight or as the Bible says "By their fruits you will know them..." Being a former Pentecostal, I already know enough about them to just try to stay clear from their writings.  All I need is to study the Bible along with some helpful tools (Lexicons, Dictionaries, Concordance, etc) to be able to understand the truth.  Yes there are some excellent commentaries out there, but the Bible sure sheds some light on all of them.

Blessings!

DAL

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Rich Tatum (Logos) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 12:21 PM

Hi, everybody, I wanted to post a quick introduction here so that you would know that the Logos leadership is listening and is moving to fill the need to round out our theological representation on our library.

I an a new product manager hired by Logos to focus on developing Pentecostal/Charismatic product and offerings. My background is Assemblies of God, though I grew up in a Baptist church. I attended an A/G Bible college (Southwestern Assemblies of God University), and worked through about 22 hours of an MA in Theology from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary before I got married.

Just to give you an idea of what I've been working on, I have compiled a list of 319 (and growing) authors who have written material of interest to those of use who are Pentecostal, charismatic, neo-charismatic, Third Wave, renewalist, or continuationist (yes, it's a broad tent!). These authors aren't exclusively Arminian (James K.A. Smith is on the list, for example), dispensational, egalitarian (vs. complementarian) or subscribers of my personal pet theologies: I'm attempting to be balanced (and like you, I sometimes cringe when I see certain author's names).

On my list of 319 authors, 178 are not represented in our library at all. I hope to pursue getting their content submitted for PrePub as soon as possible. The remainder have anywhere from one title (Joyce Meyer) to 54 titles (Jack W. Hayford) in our library. I'm going to throw in Tozer, as well — he's got 57 titles represented! I'd like to expand the offerings of the authors we do have and pursue new authors we don't have. I'll likely start with the authors that are the most palatable to the existing Logos community and branch out from there as news of our product offerings gets out and momentum builds.

In addition to what I'm doing, we are also working on expanding our library resources for the Orthodox, Catholic, Seventh Day Adventists, and Anglicans. Unfortunately, this is bound to make some people (everybody?) unhappy because it'll be harder to identify what theological background an unfamiliar author is writing from, and some authors may be viewed with distaste or contempt for any number of good reasons. But, like a good library, the resources we acquire and supply are for you to use or not use at your discretion, they don't imply endorsement on our part.

So, to sum up, I'm here to help! I'll keep the forum apprised of new developments in my area o focus as they happen.

Regards,

Rich


Rich Tatum
Marketing Specialist, Logos Bible Software

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 12:27 PM

Rich Tatum / Logos:

Hi, everybody, I wanted to post a quick introduction here so that you would know that the Logos leadership is listening and is moving to fill the need to round out our theological representation on our library.

I an a new product manager hired by Logos to focus on developing Pentecostal/Charismatic product and offerings.

Welcome, Rich. Good to hear Logos leadership is listening and moving.

There are lots of posts on the Suggestions forum that have been languishing there for months or years. Hopefully someone internally has made sure that all these titles are in the internal list of books Logos ought to be working towards acquiring. Probably most of those are not pentecostal/charismatic resources, but it might be worth your taking a peruse through the list to see if anything has been overlooked. And have your colleagues that are in charge of other theological areas pick up the ones that don't fit into your purview.

I'm concerned that if there isn't a Logos employee champion for a particular author or book, it won't get done. Some might not fit clearly into one denominational area.

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 1:17 PM

Rich, welcome aboard!  I can't tell you how excited I am to hear of your hire, especially considering your background.  I graduated from CBC back in 1990, so you'll not be surprised to read that I'd ask you to please encourage Logos to get the notes from the Fire Bible (aka "Full Life Study Bible" and/or "Life in the Spirit Study Bible").  This is my most requested and desired title.  A couple of other similar bible software companies have this resource, but I want to focus on Logos exclusively so I'm patiently waiting for this one. 

Another critical resource from a Pentecostal position would be the sister work, the now out of print "Full Life New Testament Commentary."  Both of these products would greatly increase my use of Logos.

Please keep us informed of the progress!

Take care,

Gary Osborne

Posts 178
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 1:29 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
I don't think any definition of Pentecostalism works except this one: Pentecostals are those who call themselves Pentecostals. I'm sure many Pentecostals would disagree.

I don't know whether you intended your observation to be funny, but I laughed out loud at the last line. Thank you for the blessing.

Posts 178
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 1:44 PM

Michael Childs:

The problem with Swaggart is not that he is Pentecostal.  There are many Pentecostals I respect.  (Jack Hayford and the late David Wilkerson are examples.)  The problem is that both this man's lifestyle and scholarship have been terrible.  His moral failings, along with the opulent lifestyle, are well documented.  Then there is the fact that he makes statements like "the original Greek says", and then says something that would make a first semester Greek student laugh out loud.  The man's a fraud, plain and simple. I could never vote for him.

I have many issues with Jimmy Swaggart, the most annoying (and perhaps most picayune!) of which is his woeful use of the English language. I watch his television network on occasion just for the entertainment value. During one broadcast I decided to listen carefully to his diction, grammar, and rhetoric. I surrendered that cause after I noted his seventh consecutive sentence in which there was an obvious error. I have skimmed a few of his writings, but those expeditions, too, were cut short because his printed words were not much more linguistically refined than his spoken ones.

Posts 452
Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 2:26 PM

lol - it's all a matter of perspective...I'm Pentecostal and from Australia, and have virtually never heard or read any Swaggart material...not because he is "Pentecostal" but because he is American!

Well, I have no intention of offending anyone...so let me define what I meant...an American TV personality, which all too often equates to "send us your money and we will fulfil the Great Commssion and you poor folk can stay seated on your couches" - sorry, give us poor folk some credit!

I can not think of many popular authours, Pentecostal or not, that I would personally purchase.  Speaking of Pentecostal/Charismatic authours, Fee and J. Rodman Wiliams for sure...but you can keep the Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinns, Creflo Dollars, Copelands, etc. - I will pursue products like the recent "Sayings of the Desert Fathers" or anything that will broaden my horizons (I've bought lots of Orthodox and Catholic resources of late).  I love reading all the classic commentaries...no matter what the authour's theological bent.  I have  new found interest in patristics...LXX...Syriac resources...and anything that sheds further light on the biblical languages (as one who needs all the help he can get...lol).

Personally I wish we could all drop that one theological thing that we hold on to most dearly and return to Christ and Him crucified (for Pentecostals, it could be refining our terminology so as to not exclude others...eg being filled with the Spirit - happens to us all at Salvation, and throughout our walk daily..."Baptism of the Spirit" is a release of power (grace) for service) - ooh, sorry, not meaning to stray into theology there...just to make the point that we can all learn from each other, we are all Christians and precious in God's sight - and should be precious in each others sight...even you Americans...lol!

As far as Pentecostal material goes, I'd be more interested in reading up on Branham, John G. Lake, Wigglesworth, Maria Woodworth-Etter, and the like...for a historical perspective of my roots.  

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 2:26 PM

Bill Coley:

Richard DeRuiter:
I don't think any definition of Pentecostalism works except this one: Pentecostals are those who call themselves Pentecostals. I'm sure many Pentecostals would disagree.

I don't know whether you intended your observation to be funny, but I laughed out loud at the last line. Thank you for the blessing.

 I read that post before but missed it the first time. It is funny! Big Smile

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 2:28 PM

Rich Tatum / Logos:

Hi, everybody, I wanted to post a quick introduction here so that you would know that the Logos leadership is listening and is moving to fill the need to round out our theological representation on our library.

I an a new product manager hired by Logos to focus on developing Pentecostal/Charismatic product and offerings. My background is Assemblies of God, though I grew up in a Baptist church. I attended an A/G Bible college (Southwestern Assemblies of God University), and worked through about 22 hours of an MA in Theology from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary before I got married.

 

Rich

Peace, Rich!                *smile*           Welcome aboard indeed!              

                May God Bless you and your family and your relationships with Logos and with us - Logos Bible Software Users!       *smile*

I'm Lutheran, BTW!            I don't know if you've seen the theology-denominational tag thread going around on these forums the last few days???

A lot of work -- effort  -- and for some sweat and tears, I'm sure   ............                the result could never be perfect           .........      nor even accurate      .......................                BUT          .......                             I daresay                    STILL    ...    it is very helpful ...

        From the latest version the helps to make a Logos 5 Collection -- the Collection "Rules" were:

Author:(“Bartel, Leroy”, “Bicket, Zenas”, “Chambers,
Oswald”, “Cho, Youngmo”, “Cotton, Roger”, “Duffield, Guy”, “Fee, Gordon D.”, “Ford,
Johnny”, “Hayford, Jack”, “Hernando, James”, “Horton, Stanley”, “Lewis,
Beverley”, “Ma, Wonsuk”, “McClaflin, Mike”, “McGee, Gary”, “Menzies, Robert P.”,
“Menzies, William W.”, “Moller, F. P.”, “Newberry, Annette”, “Parker, David”, “Stronstad,
Rogert”, “Synan, Vinson”, “Taylor, Cheryl”, “Warrington, Keith”, “Yong, Amos”)
OR Publisher:(“L.I.F.E. Bible College”, “Logion Press”, “Gospel Publishing
House”, “Global University”)

FYI - according to this definition I have 17 so-called resources tagged pentecostal related - out of 7,623 resources!          *smile*

Note.    I would have had only 15 according to the rules but noticed that the Logos spelling of Beverley Lewis is Beverly Lewis and changed my collection to Beverly Lewis which works!            *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 29
Rich Tatum (Logos) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 2:38 PM

Thanks, Rosie, for the welcome!

I will trawl through the suggestions at some point after I've gotten the low-hanging fruit of the most popular authors and works. When (as I expectantly hope) the Pentecostal and Charismatic audience grows here and becomes more enthusiastic about titles, it'll be easier to get one-off suggestions acquired and successfully gotten through PrePub.

Regards,

Rich


Rich Tatum
Marketing Specialist, Logos Bible Software

Posts 29
Rich Tatum (Logos) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 2:40 PM

Hi, Gary! Having worked in Springfield, I know several people over at CBC, a fine college.

I do have the Fire Bible/Full Life Study Bible notes in my list of things to investigate and acquire. It's one of the first things I looked for. :)

I'll look into the Full Life NT Commentary.

Rich


Rich Tatum
Marketing Specialist, Logos Bible Software

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