Logos General Complaint

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Posts 5
John Fuson | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Mar 15 2013 9:12 PM

When I first purchased Logos I was very excited to have a digital library.  I am one of those people who purchased Logos early on and have enjoyed several upgrades.  Although they were not all free as the box indicated.  Prior to the convenience of being able to download your library you had to purchase the cds if you wanted the updated library / data. 

Some of the resources available in the original package went away.  I was told because Logos had lost the copy write. However those who had purchased the software containing the books when it was legal should not have lost their rights to those books retrospectively non the less they did if you upgraded.  (specifically a translation owned by the Vatican in version 1.0 or 2.0)

Slowly the system I feel is becoming less about a tool for my use and more about marketing.  Logos 4 and now 5 appear to be eroding my ability to manage my library and study the way I want.  The library manager which allowed me to locate the data where I wanted and remove unwanted material at will is gone. I have upgraded to an SSD drive and have no way to relocate the data to a secondary drive.  Why?  Also to support the idea that it is more market driven one package that was listed for several hundred dollars contained several books that are part of the public domain for free. 

Also I paid for the upgrade to Logos 5 and it is true that a significant amount of new data was generated however the vast majority of it is related to new features intended to make research easier.  I for one want a tool that provides information that is at my disposal to digest as I see fit not be spoon fed someones preconceived ideas. The new features do not appear to enhance drilling down into the source material for me. 

Logos 5 does provide some neat features but they are actually part of the engine and the extra data is necessary for it to function.  So why should I have to pay for features of the Logos software that do not include adding to my theological library.  Yes I know the starter does include some new books but if I choose the crossgrade I am told I will not get all the new features.

I can create a collection but only if I already know what I am looking for.  I can not print a list of what I own. The Logos library does not appear to be categorized any longer I have to add tags on and on.

Let me say that I love the resources that are available through Logos.  But I want more control and less of a marketing approach.  Study is not getting easier because I feel I have less control over my resources.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2013 9:40 PM

Resources in your Logos library never "go away."  If you think you have lost some, I suggest that you call support at Logos and discuss it with them.  I bought BAGD when I first started with Logos and then bought the newer BDAG by Danker when it came out.  Logos no longer sells BAGD since it started selling the newer edition, but I still have it (in my case thanks to another Logos user since I had a problem with my HD which required a reinstall, but it would not even be available to me if Logos no longer supported it). 

You will never need to purchase anything to upgrade to a new engine.  The engine itself is entirely free though you may want access to some new features which do require a fee.  I purchased the minimal crossgrade when I went from L4 to L5 though I could have had all of the features of L4 without purchasing the crossgrade.  You mention the Starter package, but it isn't necessary to purchase any package if you choose not to do so but simply wish to use your existing resources.

You can arrange your library by author or title or series or even date last updated by clicking on the appropriate heading at the top of the listing.  I don't rate my books or add tags though many do.  The collection method is very helpful if you want to study a particular area or are doing a search and wish to limit the search to a particular area.  Searching a collection is not, I think, any faster, but it does limit the hits to a particular section of your library so the display of hits is not needlessly long and cluttered. 

I would suggest that you give the new program a chance.  I think it will grow on you.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2013 10:02 PM

John Fuson:
When I first purchased Logos I was very excited to have a digital library.

Welcome Big Smile

Personally share excitement for an expansive digital library.

Thankful for Logos Blog article about 5 ways to upgrade to Logos 5 => http://blog.logos.com/2012/11/5-ways-to-move-to-logos-5/

John Fuson:
The library manager which allowed me to locate the data where I wanted and remove unwanted material at will is gone.

Libronix 3 and earlier releases have a Library Manager for copying/moving resource files.  Logos 4 added local indexing of resource files for faster searching.  Moving individual resource files is difficult when indexes are merged.  Logos 5 and 4 have option to hide resources => http://wiki.logos.com/Hiding_Books that removes resource file(s) from local installation.  To remove index entries, need to rebuild indexes.

John Fuson:
I have upgraded to an SSD drive and have no way to relocate the data to a secondary drive.  Why?

Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers

Personally have Logos 5 custom installed to a F:\ (Fast) drive partition.  Have replaced hard disk F:\ with SSD, which noticeably improved Logos 5 responsiveness.

John Fuson:
The new features do not appear to enhance drilling down into the source material for me. 

Logos  5 added root search so can find cognate words.  Looking forward to Logos adding OR to Clause Search.

John Fuson:

I can create a collection but only if I already know what I am looking for. I can not print a list of what I own. The Logos library does not appear to be categorized any longer I have to add tags on and on.

Wiki has many example collections => http://wiki.logos.com/Example_Collections

Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Bibliography that can be used to print a list.

Thankful for Logos improving Library metadata tagging.  For example, the Nicene Father resources have many more subjects.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 5
John Fuson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2013 10:14 PM

Thank you for your your comments.  I do not like the new interface and the way it works.  I have a basic bible program that I can get more work done on in less time.  I wanted a tool that consolidates information not distils it.  Logos used to do that.  You can organize your library as you said but not with the flexibility that previous versions provided. Also when I tried to upgrade to Logos 5 from Logos 4 it was not possible per Logos unless I purchased an upgrade.  I know that they were intending to provide some sort of free upgrade this year, maybe that is available now, but that was not available at the time.  If I am correct the cross upgrade was not free either or at least it was not at the time. I was told by Logos that several features that were in Logos 4 would not be available unless you purchased the upgrade because they were enhanced.  And yes it is true one of the Greek translations is no longer supported and it is not available after you upgrade.  I should point out that it happened a long time ago but still. This info was provided by Logos a while back when a pastor friend and I were doing some research. I tried installing the old version as you said but since it was not maintained for the new engine it is not available.  That effort was prior to Logos 4.  Logos 4 removed the management tool.  I don't understand this as there is no viable reason to remove it.  Unless it is related to limiting ones ability to view and track your resources. 

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2013 10:41 PM

John Fuson:

Logos 4 and now 5 appear to be eroding my ability to manage my library and study the way I want.  The library manager which allowed me to locate the data where I wanted and remove unwanted material at will is gone. I have upgraded to an SSD drive and have no way to relocate the data to a secondary drive.  Why?

Hi John. Not everyone upgrades to the newer versions. Many still use version 3. The reasons are numerous.

I have read a few threads on the forum regarding the location where Logos 4/5 stores Resources. As I understand it, it is stored in the User folders due to access rights issues. In other words, the programmers couldn't figure out how to handle UAC. When I learned that a single computer with multiple users would also contain duplicate data, even if the library is huge, I realized that somebody wasn't thinking.

The good news is that even if Logos did not provide you a way to configure the Location where it looks for files, with a little bit of computer knowledge, It is always possible to relocate anything.

The Windows NTFS file system beginning with Vista contains a feature copied from Linux called Symbolic Links. Before Vista NTFS had junction points, a similar but less flexible feature.

To force Logos 4/5 to read your data from another drive, assuming Drive S: is an SSD or DVD drive:

Open a Command Prompt with Administrator access, and type a command similar to this one, replacing the "username" folder with your actual user name.

MKLINK /D /J "C:\Users\*username*\AppData\Local\Logos4\Data\random\ResourceManager\Resources" "S:\LOGOS"

This will create what is called a Directory Junction point. The files that are stored in S:\LOGOS will appear in the other folder even though they aren't really there. It is a little bit like a link that tells Windows where to go and look for files.

You can then move all the files to S:\LOGOS and Logos software will never know the difference.

Yes it is amazingly dumb that the Logos software has no easy way to configure this (Like Libronix 3 did).

If you need further help let me know. If you are not a technical type and the command prompt scares you, there are also graphical front-ends to the MKLINK utility that you can download.

Try this one http://code.google.com/p/symlinker/ and see if it works Cool

Posts 5
John Fuson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2013 10:42 PM

Thanks for the links they were helpful to be sure.  The bibliography in particular was just what I was looking for.  It is still a few two many steps and manual instead of automated but it works.

Posts 5
John Fuson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2013 10:52 PM

Thanks for the quick responses!  I am getting a little lazy and think that things should be easier not take more steps or require technical patches on the users part to make things work the way they should.  Several really good links posted and will apply them depending on how far I decide to go to fix what should just work.  Hopefully Logos will pay attention to its customers and fix some of these usability problems.  Indexing is a problem but it can be turned off and started again so that files can be relocated, no reason to delete a feature. 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 15 2013 11:22 PM

John Fuson:
I know that they were intending to provide some sort of free upgrade this year, maybe that is available now

Wiki Getting Started => http://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos#Installation_.2b_Indexing has an installation section with Logos 4 and 5 links.

Logos Support has Logos 5 => http://www.logos.com/support/windows and Libronix 3 (deprecated) => http://www.logos.com/support/logos3/windows

John Fuson:
If I am correct the cross upgrade was not free either or at least it was not at the time.

Correct.  Minimal Crossgrade and Core Datasets require purchase.

Logos 5.1 Beta is working on Library improvements => Handy New Features

Threads => The (future) L5 Library & My Library--Preliminary Sketches and => What is more useful in Libronix 3.0g ? (especially compared to Logos 4.5a) may be helpful.  Thankful for Logos 4.6 and 5.# improvements plus looking forward to more Libronix 3 capabilities being revamped and integrated.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 4:58 AM

John Fuson:

Thanks for the quick responses!  I am getting a little lazy and think that things should be easier not take more steps or require technical patches on the users part to make things work the way they should.  Several really good links posted and will apply them depending on how far I decide to go to fix what should just work.  Hopefully Logos will pay attention to its customers and fix some of these usability problems.  Indexing is a problem but it can be turned off and started again so that files can be relocated, no reason to delete a feature. 

i'm glad to see that many of your concerns are being addressed. I would like to just say " thank you" for the manner in which you presented tour concerns. It was refreshing to see someone who could state concerns  in a manner that was genuine without resorting to the besmirching the name of the company and its owners. I hope you come to find your investment as enriching to your biblical studies as I have. 

Posts 408
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 5:26 AM

This brings up a question. What happens now if a book is no longer able to be sold from Logos like the BAGD2nd edition? If they don't host it any longer like some older resources and I have to rebuild on a new computer or restore my computer we might end up losing some resources if we don't back up locally which if I understand is a bit tricky.

It was easy in Libronix to back up your resources and your license on your own.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 6:10 AM

John Fuson:

When I first purchased Logos [....]

Greetings John Fuson,

I just do not know where to begin, but I do read a lot into your post and must say that I can also read a lot of solutions. If you would like and would not mind, pick something specific and let us do our best to help.....to try and address all your issues would, and probably does, require some time, but I think that when you read our replies to some of the more directed statements[questions] you will be impressed at the ease of operations.....

Take a moment to consider it..................

 

R4m.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 6:53 AM

John Fuson:

When I first purchased Logos I was very excited to have a digital library.  I am one of those people who purchased Logos early on and have enjoyed several upgrades.  Although they were not all free as the box indicated.  Prior to the convenience of being able to download your library you had to purchase the cds if you wanted the updated library / data. 

Some of the resources available in the original package went away.  I was told because Logos had lost the copy write. However those who had purchased the software containing the books when it was legal should not have lost their rights to those books retrospectively non the less they did if you upgraded.  (specifically a translation owned by the Vatican in version 1.0 or 2.0)

[...]

So moving forward. I agree but I am not exactly sure what you mean by [...not all were free as the box indicated....]. Essentially everything that came in the box set's were as described on the box sets. Altho I do not have the boxes anymore I do recall that there were some 'trial' resources, that were available for purchase of the unlock code.

Some of the upgrades were/are available on CD and currently I believe that if you purchase another package that there is the option to get the CD as well. Usually a phone call to sales gets this done. Albeit that at this point there may not be CD's you can get, again a call to sale may remedy this.

Yes, some of them went away, that is sad indeed. Mind if I ask you how old your vehicle is? ever have to buy parts for that old car you used to have? Shame they don't make those anymore/? Guess I will need to get another...I wasn't aware that you 'lost books' because Logos no longer had the license to market them, you purchased them while it was still in effect....I did lose the usage of a few when there was an upgrade once, but that was due to platform change and I believe that all but one/two are current - which maybe directly associated with the license issue from the outside source. Can't blame Logos HQ for that......Had to buy a new car to keep the finances in check, that old clunker was nickel and dime-ing me to death every other weekend.........

 

R4m.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 10837
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 6:56 AM

James C.:
What happens now if a book is no longer able to be sold from Logos like the BAGD2nd edition?

Don't know about this resource, but I purchased the original Daily Study Bible (Barclay) just before Logos lost the right to sell. It is still part of my library through several new installations. 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 7:27 AM

James C.:
It was easy in Libronix to back up your resources and your license on your own.

Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers (PC) and => http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_Multiple_Macs (Mac) that include Logos 4 and 5 Resource locations.

Libronix 3 allowed files to be added into Resources folder, which would be noticed the next time Libronix 3 launched.  Logos 4 and 5 need to use scan command to specify a path, then restart Logos so unlocked resources in path can be copied into Logos folder and locally indexed.

Logos 4 and 5 have LicenseManager and Users folders.  The Logos#\Data\<random>\LicenseManager folder includes encrypted files with resource licenses for a user, who is in the Logos#\Users folder.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:05 AM

John Fuson:
Some of the resources available in the original package went away.  I was told because Logos had lost the copy write. However those who had purchased the software containing the books when it was legal should not have lost their rights to those books retrospectively non the less they did if you upgraded.  (specifically a translation owned by the Vatican in version 1.0 or 2.0)

John Fuson:
Logos 4 and now 5 appear to be eroding my ability to manage my library and study the way I want.

Putting these two together, reminds me of the transition from Logos2 to Libronix (Logos3). There was a significant change in library management that happened then, and it was a major adjustment for me and many others. That change was driven by Logos' increasing number of resources. The old model became overly cumbersome for those with more than a hundred or so resources.

As to loosing resources, this shouldn't happen, but did in a very few isolated instances (at least once because Logos got a copyright agreement from a source that had no right to provide it! I don't know if this was that instance). Still, if you had them in the past, you may still have access to them, if you kept them along the way.

I notice that you are bringing this as a complaint. Nothing wrong with that. However, if you'd like help (tips on creating collections, e.g.) or understanding in any of these areas, feel free to ask.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:25 AM

Looking thru John's points, much of his concerns could be classed under 'not intuitive'. L5 does far more than Libronix (my favorite). But each little area has to be 'researched'.

I still think Logos should offer a strip-down, have it match the tablets for ease of crossover use, and thereby support the 90%? that just study the Bible, and do reading. I'd recommend such to my friends, but definitely not Logos5. Not this side of heaven.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:30 AM

John Fuson:

[...]

Slowly the system I feel is becoming less about a tool for my use and more about marketing.  Logos 4 and now 5 appear to be eroding my ability to manage my library and study the way I want.  The library manager which allowed me to locate the data where I wanted and remove unwanted material at will is gone. I have upgraded to an SSD drive and have no way to relocate the data to a secondary drive.  Why?  Also to support the idea that it is more market driven one package that was listed for several hundred dollars contained several books that are part of the public domain for free. 

Also I paid for the upgrade to Logos 5 and it is true that a significant amount of new data was generated however the vast majority of it is related to new features intended to make research easier.  I for one want a tool that provides information that is at my disposal to digest as I see fit not be spoon fed someones preconceived ideas. The new features do not appear to enhance drilling down into the source material for me.

[...]

Well yes and no; the tools are still there and the marketing has somewhat taken a front seat to the tools. The tools have been enhanced to 'better' the ability to study. As for Management of the Library, you can do a 'Custom Install' at the beginning, but the downfall is that if you get an L5 upgrade and it attaches itself to the already existing L4, then the customizing stage is somewhat missed.

If the Management is all that crucial as a state of high priority then you can; somewhat of a trickery, copy the Logos4 folder to an external HD, and then remove program[control panel/add-remove] from the computer - clean the computer. Install L5 from the downloadable Logossetup.* and when it gets to the Install 'typical' 'custom' choose custom.........when finished copy the resources back to the resources folder, let the program 'prepare' 'index' 'sync' and things should be up to par....takes some time but still do-able[[I am sure that another would have an easier way, or suggestion as to accomplishing the same task...]]As for the public domain, that's a little vague......

Can you clarify "... I for one want a tool that provides information that is at my disposal to digest as I see fit not be spoon fed someones preconceived ideas. The new features do not appear to enhance drilling down into the source material for me. " what exactly are you wanting to do? [[.....Logos HQ employee's DO read the forums..]]

You would be surprised as to the many different ways we do things: some quicker - and some not so quick.....I can assure you that to the best of my knowledge NO one has read every book in their respective libraries/resources.

By the way, without being too personal, can you supply us with the type of system you are running? IE> winXP, 7, 8 etc.

 

R4m.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 9:40 AM

DMB:

I still think Logos should offer a strip-down, have it match the tablets for ease of crossover use ...

You mean sort of like what they have a mobile devices now? A simple reader program with a little bit more power in the Bible study area? I agree.

The Logos app for android is actually great if you just want to read a book. Problem is that if I want to buy an individual book to read on my Android tablet, Logos wants me to pay a retail price, where Amazon will give me a large discount for the same book.

I personally think that Logos needs to change their focus. Instead of selling huge packages of books at prices that require them to offer financing, they should look at what Amazon is doing with the Kindle.

They need to be competitive to the individual who only wants to buy ONE book. Look out, Christianbook.com figured it out. They have over 10,000 titles already. All of the normal theological and Biblical stuff, plus a lot of contemporary type stuff, like you would find in a Christian bookstore. All at discounted prices like Amazon. Logos needs to compete in this market. Until they do they are only serving a niche market that is becoming more competitive all the time.

 

Posts 1829
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 10:16 AM

John:
They need to be competitive to the individual who only wants to buy ONE book.

I'm not saying that this is perfect, but Logos is kind of going in this direction with Vyrso. The one drawback though is the fact that if it is already available in Logos then it will not be available in Vyrso. If you take a look at their publishers on the left hand side of the web site, it is a pretty good group, such as Thomas Nelson, Baker and Zondervan.

Vyrso books also show in your Logos program and if they update the book to Logos format you get the upgrade with no additional charges (at least that is my understanding).

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 11:33 AM

Rick:

Vyrso books also show in your Logos program and if they update the book to Logos format you get the upgrade with no additional charges (at least that is my understanding).

  Even on Android or iOS? Is the Vyrso app for android different and separate from the Logos app and your Logos account?
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