Moody titles will be going away

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 4:46 PM

We are not privy to the true issues behind Moody leaving Logos. But sometimes there are irreconcilable differences. What IF:

  • Moody demanded Logos quit selling Catholic resources to continue carrying theirs?
  • Moody wanted to give their resources away for free while obligating Logos to perpetually support them?
  • Moody wanted to quadruple the prices of their resources?

We do not know why they parted ways. Hopefully it is something that can be resolved. If not, we will just have to live with it.

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Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 5:00 PM

Tony Thomas:

However, looking at it from a different perspective, Logos has already spent substantial $$$ digitizing and indexing Moody resources for which they will now receive no revenue.  The last time I checked, 100% of zero is zero.

That's true, Tony. However, remember that those are sunk costs. And if a business like Logos starts allowing itself to cave on the demands of publishers with deals that don't make economic sense for Logos, it can start a really, really bad trend. Then other publishers will probably want similar terms which are likewise unfavorable to Logos. Before you know it, Logos could find itself losing money and have to do something drastic to reverse the trend - most likely something that will anger end-users, such as raising the prices on Logos resources, discontinuing sales, charging for software, limiting support, lowering product quality, etc.

If the report I got of what happened really is accurate, then frankly, I'm glad that Logos made this very difficult decision. It may hurt somewhat for those who really like the products by Moody. However, in the long-run, I think that decision helps keep Logos financially strong and able to continue providing top-of-the-line software and support.

Tony Thomas:

I pray that Logos and Moody will revisit their negotiations in the near future.

Amen! And if Moody is struggling financially, then I hope that God leads them to some clever and creative new ways to fix that.

 

    

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Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 5:56 PM

Yes, those are really sunk costs, now!  They won't get another penny from Moody resources to pay back their investment!

I think what we are seeing is a quickly changing playing field in the publishing world.  Five or ten years ago, what Logos was doing provided a valuable service to publishers by digitizing, tagging and distributing their works (especially back catalog and out of print books).

Times have changed.

Now, publishers have numerous electronic book distributors to choose from,  all producing nice income streams for the publishers and their authors.

Bottom line: they can demand more money for their IP.

Sure, Logos resources are great with all of the tagging that goes into them.  On the other hand, they get a nice premium over other electronic book distributors and can even charge nice sums of money for public domain works that are available for very little $$$ (or even free) elsewhere.  

I don't think that Moody will be the last cow out of the barn given the current economic climate.

As a result, I think Logos needs to continue to concentrate on financing and producing its own scholarly works as well as adding value to public domain works by digitizing them adding features to them to increase perceived added value.  

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 6:18 PM

Tony Thomas:
I don't think that Moody will be the last cow out of the barn given the current economic climate.

Maybe not. I just hope we get another "heads-up" if it happens again so I can grab for resources. I'm thankful I got that chance on the Moody titles.

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 7:52 PM

The real bottom line is whether Moody (or anyone else) keep in mind that they remember who they serve. If it's not about the defense and proclamation of the gospel, it always comes in a dismal second place.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 3 2013 9:15 PM

Tony Thomas:
As a result, I think Logos needs to continue to concentrate on financing and producing its own scholarly works as well as adding value to public domain works by digitizing them adding features to them to increase perceived added value.  

For me that would mean virtually no purchases from Logos, the majority of older works i have purchased nearly never get used, and while i was in pre pub for "Evangelical Exegetical Commentary" after seeing the volume on Ezra I decided the series, assuming it was a good representation was definitely not something I wished to have. I had been expecting something closer to an updated WBC, but found it was far more conservative than I was comfortable with. Logos has made some guides that are rather pricey and as I understand it of little value if you do not own large numbers of resources it will point you too. I am very thankful for the hard work they have done on the Lexham Bible. It seems rather odd that so far at least Logos is the only Bible software Moody's has pulled out of–Olivetree, Accordance, & Wordsearch all sell numerous moodys tittles and are adding more all the time. I am not saying that Logos is at fault just that it is sad that the biggest Bible software publisher was not able to come to an agreeable arrangement with Moody, but in someways it is nice leaving room for people to explore other software to supplement Logos.

-Dan

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 4 2013 5:43 AM

Dan Francis:
It seems rather odd that so far at least Logos is the only Bible software Moody's has pulled out of

There could be a very simple explanation for that: multi-year contracts. If Logos had a contract that happened to end this spring, and others have contracts that happen to end in coming years, it would give this effect.

Also, because of Logos' prepub system everything they sell is already paid for, so if a publisher makes outrageous demands they can afford to say "Thanks, but no thanks. Welcome back when you're prepared to be reasonable." Other companies may not even have covered their production costs yet, and may therefore feel forced to accept a bad contract in order to recuperate at least some of what they've spent.

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Steven E. Grable | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 4 2013 12:44 PM

We serve One who owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and I cannot believe that He wants us, as believers, or christian organizations, to bicker, gripe, and fight over money, especially when the purpose of Logos and Moody is to edify, educate, and grow believers!  They both need to be careful not to place the profit margin ahead of the ministry, or they will be treated much like the money-changers in the Temple when Jesus came in and made a clear example of their true motives, disrespect, and disobedience! 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 4 2013 12:52 PM

Steven E. Grable:
and I cannot believe that He wants us, as believers, or christian organizations, to bicker, gripe, and fight over money,

We do not know the reason why Moody titles were pulled. It is possible it had nothing to do with money on Logos' or Moody's part.

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Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 4 2013 12:59 PM

Steven E. Grable:

We serve One who owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and I cannot believe that He wants us, as believers, or christian organizations, to bicker, gripe, and fight over money, especially when the purpose of Logos and Moody is to edify, educate, and grow believers!  They both need to be careful not to place the profit margin ahead of the ministry, or they will be treated much like the money-changers in the Temple when Jesus came in and made a clear example of their true motives, disrespect, and disobedience! 

I think everyone is just trying their best to be good stewards of what they have to work with during these challenging times. If they don't make some difficult decisions, they risk letting down the many constituencies they serve - employees, customers, churches, universities, etc. No doubt there are smart people of good-will on both sides searching for ways to make things work. We just need to hope and pray that they come up with some good win-win solutions.

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Randy Mlinek | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 1:17 PM

An email to your loyal customers would have been appreciated.

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 3:12 PM

Randy Mlinek:

An email to your loyal customers would have been appreciated.

Though many of us were disappointed with this decision, LOGOS did give us a heads up that it was coming.  They used the Forums, their most common way of communicating with customers, to inform us with what was coming.  I realize that you must have missed the announcement - that would have helped; but you did join the Forums in June 2010, you certainly could have seen the original post last April.  I trust you will find other resources to meet your needs.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 6:32 PM

Randy Mlinek:

An email to your loyal customers would have been appreciated.

As Floyd said, it was in the forums, but I think that very inadequate. An email notice would have been much better and effective. I get emails all the time about specials "just for me" and such. An announcement about Moody would have been appreciated. Most Logos users don't frequent the forums.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 6:52 PM

Bill Moore:
As Floyd said, it was in the forums, but I think that very inadequate. An email notice would have been much better and effective.

It is possible Moody told Logos they could not advertise the discontinuance. Or maybe Logos was told "you can sell $x-amount of resources, them pull the plug." We don't know why or how the relationship was terminated. We do know the end was variable. Logos did not even know the precise timing.

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 6:59 PM
Tony Thomas:

As a result, I think Logos needs to continue to concentrate on financing and producing its own scholarly works as well as adding value to public domain works by digitizing them adding features to them to increase perceived added value.  

I surely hope NOT! Logos does produce nice quality stuff, but the serious scholarship is NOT "in house". If Logos concentrates on producing its own scholarly works, they will alienate other publishers and certainly be producing such works for a shrinking market. That is a plan that would result in nothing good for those of us with significant Logos libraries. I believe they are much smarter than that. .... On another, but related topic: Why all the speculation by so many about whatever happened between Moody and Logos when we know so little? What good comes from that?

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 8:25 PM

Michael Childs:
Tony Thomas:

As a result, I think Logos needs to continue to concentrate on financing and producing its own scholarly works as well as adding value to public domain works by digitizing them adding features to them to increase perceived added value.  

I surely hope NOT! Logos does produce nice quality stuff, but the serious scholarship is NOT "in house". If Logos concentrates on producing its own scholarly works, they will alienate other publishers and certainly be producing such works for a shrinking market. That is a plan that would result in nothing good for those of us with significant Logos libraries. I believe they are much smarter than that. .... On another, but related topic: Why all the speculation by so many about whatever happened between Moody and Logos when we know so little? What good comes from that?

With several of the Lexham guides (produced by Logos) going to community pricing (and not having much luck there either), I think it's safe to say Logos will not be going in the direction Tony thinks they should go.  Like Michael says, "They are much smarter than that..." Just look at how long it's taking for the HD commentary on Romans to make it out of pre-pub AND on top of that, you now can/need to purchase a handbook that goes with it.  Not very smart in my opinion.  Who in their right mind makes a commentary that will need a handbook designed to serve as a companion for the commentary? Not being harsh and over critical here, just realistic.  I think, IMO, that was a very bad move; not to mention the price tag on those (65 for the commentary and 50 for the handbook...rounded up prices).  I own the HD commentary on Philippians and that just makes me wonder if soon there will be a handbook to serve as a companion for the commentary.  Does that mean you need both resources to see the whole picture, if so, what's the point of buying the commentary if it's not "complete" per se or you will need a handbook to help you understand the commentary? Sorry, I just don't see the logic behind it. 

Anyway, I hope Logos continues to attract more publishers so we can have all the books we want from every publisher both in English and Spanish for me and other languages for others.

Blessings!

DAL

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 8:32 PM

Bill Moore:
As Floyd said, it was in the forums, but I think that very inadequate. An email notice would have been much better and effective.

I think Logos did all that they could prudently do. Think about it: They were continuing negotiations with Moody, but things were not finalized. An email would have been the death knell and uncouth… plus they wanted to continue SOME relationship with the company (they still sell books through Vyrso). They did not make a big formal announcement and should not have. What would they have said in an email blog? "Hey everyone! We are in the process of trying to renegotiate contracts with Moody, but things don't look good. You better buy fast!" I just don't see it. Furthermore, there are different levels of how to present info. An email from friend to friend is one thing. An email from a large company like Logos is another. What is written should be thought out very carefully. A post in the forum is much more casual, and doesn't take nearly as much time. Lastly, a post in the forums provides opportunity for a little give and take. An email could have generated a considerable amount of phone calls and reply emails… the forums provides an efficient means for interaction with others, including some Logos employees.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 9:17 PM

Would a blog posting really be that much more public??? it's not like the forums are not searchable via google or require a log in to see them.

-Dan

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 9:19 PM

alabama24:

Bill Moore:
As Floyd said, it was in the forums, but I think that very inadequate. An email notice would have been much better and effective.

I think Logos did all that they could prudently do. Think about it: They were continuing negotiations with Moody, but things were not finalized. An email would have been the death knell and uncouth… plus they wanted to continue SOME relationship with the company (they still sell books through Vyrso). They did not make a big formal announcement and should not have. What would they have said in an email blog? "Hey everyone! We are in the process of trying to renegotiate contracts with Moody, but things don't look good. You better buy fast!" I just don't see it. Furthermore, there are different levels of how to present info. An email from friend to friend is one thing. An email from a large company like Logos is another. What is written should be thought out very carefully. A post in the forum is much more casual, and doesn't take nearly as much time. Lastly, a post in the forums provides opportunity for a little give and take. An email could have generated a considerable amount of phone calls and reply emails… the forums provides an efficient means for interaction with others, including some Logos employees.

It is totally tempting to think that an email would have been an answer but alabama has done a good job at explaining some of the complications doing it that way. Thanks.

One of the additional benefits of doing it through the forums is that maybe more people will be motivated to stop by and participate more.

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2013 10:10 PM

There are a number of ways LOGOS could have communicated with us:

  1. e-mail
  2. blog
  3. forums
  4. paper mail
  5. etc.

They chose the forums - they could make any decision they wished.  At the same time, you (we?) might be disappointed with their choice.  There have been times in the past that I have not liked LOGOS' decision - but it is there right to make decisions.  

At this point it makes little difference - LOGOS and Moody went their separate directions.  I continue to buy LOGOS' products - even when I don't agree with all their decisions.  Each of us, of course, has the same choice to make - whether to continue purchasing from LOGOS or to not do so.

Blessings,
Floyd

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