Did Melchizedek pay tithes to Abraham? Logos 5 says, Yes!

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This post has 17 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 54
Tommy Miller | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Apr 14 2013 7:22 PM

According to Logos 5's new Referent Database, Melchizedek paid tithes to Abraham in Genesis 14:20, rather than the other way around (which is, of course, how it happened, Hebrews 7:2). Right click on the pronouns "he" and "him" in Gen. 14:20 to see the person mislabeled.

This is simply a mistake in the pronoun tagging, I trust (and not some new doctrine!). But it got me to thinking how this error may affect a study of Melchizedek to the uninformed. Look up Melchizedek with Bible Facts and notice the REFERRED TO AS section.

Melchizedek is listed as the implied subject of the verb 13x, and by pronoun reference 5x. Yet, if one counts the pronouns used in the three verses listed (Gen. 14:18; Heb. 7:2, 4), we find one usage in Gen. 14:18, NO USES in Heb. 7:2 (unless "To whom" and "which is" are untagged pronouns), and NO USES in Heb. 7:4. But back in Genesis 14:19 there is one "he" and another "he" in Gen. 14:20.

Under the "REFERRED TO AS" section, Melchizedek is not listed as "this man," though that is a referent in Heb. 7:4 (unless that is counted as the implied subject of the verb?). He is referred to as "King of Salem" (Gen. 14:18), but the "King of Salem references in Heb. 7:1 and 7:2 are not counted. "King (1x)" (Heb. 7:1) shows up. But He is not listed as "King of righteousness" or "King of peace" (as in Heb. 7:2).

This is only a small sampling of the concerns. But it is enough to show that we cannot do an accurate search for Melchizedek by referent, nor can we depend upon the counts shown. I was under the impression that the "REFERRED TO AS" was supposed to be exhaustive, not merely representative. Am I mistaken?

While a good effort has been put forth on the part of Logos, we must remember that inerrancy applies to the Scripture, not to Logos.

Core i7-2630QM CPU 2.00 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 64-Bit Windows 7 Professional SP1

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 14 2013 7:30 PM

Tommy Miller:
While a good effort has been put forth on the part of Logos, we must remember that inerrancy applies to the Scripture, not to Logos.

Our data, and hence research, are as good as the level of accuracy of our tools. I always prefer quality data over quantity; however, with today's technology, I don't see why Logos can't provide exhaustive referents.

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 14 2013 7:54 PM

Tommy Miller:

Right click on the pronouns "he" and "him" in Gen. 14:20 to see the person mislabeled.

This is simply a mistake in the pronoun tagging,

I  don't see where the referents are indicating that Melchizedek paid a tithe to Abraham. The referents are correct for Gen 14:20b, but is not for 14:20c, where the NIV translates it as..."Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything."  The "him" points to Abram, as if he gave himself a tenth.  Good thing our modern English translations,such as NIV, ESV, NLT, and others, are clear about who gave to whom.

The NLT, my favorite translation when I read the Old Testament, says:

"Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of all the goods he had recovered."

Cheers,

David

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 14 2013 9:28 PM

David Bailey:

Good thing our modern English translations,such as NIV, ESV, NLT, and others, are clear about who gave to whom.

  Who's on first?  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 732
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 14 2013 9:44 PM

I struck out before I began to play & consequently never made it to first base. Maybe I should take a swing and cry foul.

Posts 476
elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 9:38 AM

The same issue was brought up a few months ago as well:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/62843/443239.aspx

Posts 227
LogosEmployee
Mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 9:57 AM

Thanks for pointing this out, guys. We're looking into this and the data should receive an update if necessary.

Mike

Faithlife Tech Support
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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 10:01 AM

Bro.[Apostle} George,

Bootjack.

one of you can stand on the plate, get hit with the pitch, the one hit gets to go to first base, the other is the runner fr the batter....then the real question can become "Who's on first?" since matter cannot occupy the same space as other matter, one will have to get called out.....

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 10:28 AM

George Somsel:

David Bailey:

Good thing our modern English translations,such as NIV, ESV, NLT, and others, are clear about who gave to whom.

  Who's on first?  Wink

I struck out with the curve balls thrown. Confused

Posts 754
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 10:36 AM

Yes, this is an error in the referent annotation. We've fixed it internally: that fix should get shipped sometime in the next month or so.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 11:57 AM

Room4more:

Bro.[Apostle} George,

Bootjack.

one of you can stand on the plate, get hit with the pitch, the one hit gets to go to first base, the other is the runner fr the batter....then the real question can become "Who's on first?" since matter cannot occupy the same space as other matter, one will have to get called out.....

For the benefit of those not familiar with the famous comedy skit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=airT-m9LcoY

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 2:33 PM

George Somsel:

For the benefit of those not familiar with the famous comedy skit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=airT-m9LcoY

i have always loved this skit!

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 15 2013 5:56 PM

Thanks so much, George!                 Unfortunately, now I feel my age!     *smile*           But!     I'm still smiling!  Great memories, eh??

Thanks for the memories!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 124
GeoPappas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 23 2014 9:14 AM

Sean Boisen:
Yes, this is an error in the referent annotation. We've fixed it internally: that fix should get shipped sometime in the next month or so.

It seems that this issue hasn't been completely fixed.

I still see Gen 14:20c in error.  The verse states "And he gave him a tithe of all."

L5 still shows "he" as Melchizedek and "him" as Abraham (when you right-click on the word).  So, L5 still has Melchizedek giving Abraham a tithe.

Posts 24921
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 23 2014 2:04 PM

GeoPappas:
It seems that this issue hasn't been completely fixed.

Yes. The LHB phrase "gave him" is still showing that Melchizedek gave Abram. The interlinears take their cue from that

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 10177
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 23 2014 3:56 PM

This is an interesting problem.  I'm referring to Logos' work, effectively becoming a commentary with nameless authorship (a team, as Bob calls it). 

I was happily reading BAR Nov/Dec 1982 where it said Hiram was doing bronze on the Jordan plain (1 KI 7.45-46).  That caught my eye due to the geology (sand/clay process), the question of where Hiram was getting the tin, and most importantly why he was doing it on the Jordan plain far from 'home'?

Turning to my trusty Logos5, Logos insisted, no, it was Solomon (through kingly delegation) doing the  bronze work on the Jordan plain.  Of course, the answer turned on 'king' ... which one?  2 CH 4.16 solved it by dumping it.


Posts 754
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 24 2014 10:19 AM

Dave Hooton:

GeoPappas:
It seems that this issue hasn't been completely fixed.

Yes. The LHB phrase "gave him" is still showing that Melchizedek gave Abram. The interlinears take their cue from that

Yes, it appears the annotation here is still incorrect. I'll make sure it gets fixed.

Posts 24921
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 24 2014 1:15 PM

Thanks, Sean

Dave
===

Windows & Android

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