Classical NT Criticism and Early Church History leaving Community Pricing

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 1 2013 4:06 AM

This is closing on Community Pricing on Friday so we have to act quickly to see if we can lower the price more.

http://www.logos.com/product/28537/f-c-baur-collection 

Anyone with me here?

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 1 2013 7:52 AM

Peace, Bruce!                I'm am definitely with you!          *smile*             and ........              I'm in!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 1 2013 9:58 AM

Thanks for pointing this out, Bruce.  I'm in, now.

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Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 1 2013 10:37 AM

Whats Tübingen School” and why should I be worried about it?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 1 2013 10:58 AM

A couple of quotes about Baur (taken from Geisler's Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics):

logosres:encycchap;art=title

For example, following Hegel, F. C. Baur and his Tübingen school claimed that the first-century tension between Peter’s Judaistic form of Christianity opposed by Paul’s anti-Judaistic form found its reconciliation in John’s Gospel in the second century , thus insisting on a late date for John’s Gospel

Critics, following F. C. Baur, read a Hegelian (see Hegel, G. W. F.) developmental view into the Gospel record (Corduan, 90–92). They begin with the view that John must have been late, since his views were a synthesis of the earlier conflict between the thesis of Peter and the antithesis of Paul.

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Randy Lane | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 1 2013 8:14 PM

Down to $25

Is $20 realistic with only 40 hours left?

With only 4 volumes I sure hope so. Even $5 per volume seems high for public domain material.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 4:17 AM

It is possible to see this go down to $20 where it really should be. Come on folks, help us out. This is a good resource.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 4:41 AM

Bruce Dunning:

It is possible to see this go down to $20

  Hm, since it is just over the $25 and the curve has a rather steep ascent, I don't think it will decrease further.  
Bruce Dunning:
This is a good resource
  Care to explain more? Personally, I currently believe that Baur and the Tubingen school belong to the gravediggers of Christian Theology (what remained in Germany is for the most part a zombie that not only runs around as a living dead, but also kills and makes more zombies day by day - thinking of "from dusk till dawn" now and praying for the sun...). This might make it into a "for apologetics reasons"-collection, if I had such. But I may be wrong - and I always thought it's better to read people firsthand to extend fairness or even grace to them. So my take is: it was influential, so get it to understand the way of thinking that propelled Baur and his followers.     But you may have better reasons for people to put a bid - share them!   

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 5:00 AM

NB.Mick:

Bruce Dunning:

It is possible to see this go down to $20

  Hm, since it is just over the $25 and the curve has a rather steep ascent, I don't think it will decrease further.  
Bruce Dunning:

I'm just trying to be optimistic although you are probably right.

NB.Mick:
This is a good resource
  Care to explain more? Personally, I currently believe that Baur and the Tubingen school belong to the gravediggers of Christian Theology (what remained in Germany is for the most part a zombie that not only runs around as a living dead, but also kills and makes more zombies day by day - thinking of "from dusk till dawn" now and praying for the sun...). This might make it into a "for apologetics reasons"-collection, if I had such. But I may be wrong - and I always thought it's better to read people firsthand to extend fairness or even grace to them. So my take is: it was influential, so get it to understand the way of thinking that propelled Baur and his followers.     But you may have better reasons for people to put a bid - share them!   

Gravediggers of Christian theology and zombies...interesting perspective. I think the primary reason I am recommending it is for its historical perspective on the early church.

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 5:13 AM

Bruce Dunning:
Gravediggers of Christian theology and zombies...interesting perspective. I think the primary reason I am recommending it is for its historical perspective on the early church.

Admittedly I have not read Baur, but the (many) criticisms of him that I have seen say he tells you more about the way the church should have developed according to Hegelian idealism - specifically as a conflict and synthesis between Jewish and Pauline Christianity.  While there are people who still try to argue this, the dominant conversation today is look at Paul as the Jew he claimed to be.  Historical studies since have shown the incredible diversity of "2nd temple" Judaism, which allegedly undermines the assumptions of his work.

Add to that questions about if he is talking about the living faith of the church...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 5:41 AM

Peace, Mick!              Thanks for your post!        Very powerful and quite effective, I would think!      *smile*                                   Love your analogy!       *smile*           Frankly, I've never read Baur.  In fact, I don't even remember studying the Tubingen School at Seminary.....          Maybe my mind went "blank" for a period of time???       

                 If we can get this resource at a fairly low price, I think I might enjoy "perusing" Baur.                   Blessings!

NB.Mick:

Bruce Dunning:

It is possible to see this go down to $20

  Hm, since it is just over the $25 and the curve has a rather steep ascent, I don't think it will decrease further.  
Bruce Dunning:
This is a good resource
  Care to explain more? Personally, I currently believe that Baur and the Tubingen school belong to the gravediggers of Christian Theology (what remained in Germany is for the most part a zombie that not only runs around as a living dead, but also kills and makes more zombies day by day - thinking of "from dusk till dawn" now and praying for the sun...). This might make it into a "for apologetics reasons"-collection, if I had such. But I may be wrong - and I always thought it's better to read people firsthand to extend fairness or even grace to them. So my take is: it was influential, so get it to understand the way of thinking that propelled Baur and his followers.     But you may have better reasons for people to put a bid - share them!   

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 6:09 AM

Bruce Dunning:
I think the primary reason I am recommending it is for its historical perspective on the early church.
Hi Bruce, I wish you could elaborate more about why you're recommending 'this perspective'. I'm also very interested in early church history, but not so much in prejudiced views that try to apply presupposed ideas on history without evidence. The result can be fantasy not real history and thus not too valuable. But please share your point of view.

I did some research on Bauer and now I'm intrigued enough to maybe increase my bid from $20 to $25 not because I'm interested in his theories or  the Tubingen school's influence on the treatment of NT criticism, but because if I do a search for him or "Tubingen school" in my library, I get a TON of results! I can say that at least he's 'controversial' (if not influential)  enough to get that much attention (even if negative) from so many scholars and theologians. I'm sold!

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Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 6:28 AM

NB.Mick:
Personally, I currently believe that Baur and the Tubingen school belong to the gravediggers of Christian Theology (what remained in Germany is for the most part a zombie that not only runs around as a living dead, but also kills and makes more zombies day by day - thinking of "from dusk till dawn" now and praying for the sun...).
It's pretty cool that you don't have a strong opinion about this Wink 

NB.Mick:
and I always thought it's better to read people firsthand to extend fairness or even grace to them. So my take is: it was influential, so get it to understand the way of thinking that propelled Baur and his followers.
Yes

For those not convinced that Bauer's philosophy belongs to the realm of the dead, you can read this article by Carl Olson

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 6:42 AM

Sleiman:

Bruce Dunning:
I think the primary reason I am recommending it is for its historical perspective on the early church.
Hi Bruce, I wish you could elaborate more about why you're recommending 'this perspective'. I'm also very interested in early church history, but not so much in prejudiced views that try to apply presupposed ideas on history without evidence. The result can be fantasy not real history and thus not too valuable. But please share your point of view.

I did some research on Bauer and now I'm intrigued enough to maybe increase my bid from $20 to $25 not because I'm interested in his theories or  the Tubingen school's influence on the treatment of NT criticism, but because if I do a search for him or "Tubingen school" in my library, I get a TON of results! I can say that at least he's 'controversial' (if not influential)  enough to get that much attention (even if negative) from so many scholars and theologians. I'm sold!

Let me clarify things from my perspective. I am not recommending this because I agree with everything in it. If I built my library on that assumption it would be quite a bit smaller than it is. I believe that it is important to understand people from different perspectives so that I can draw conclusions that are better informed. I must confess that I don't know a lot about the Tubingen school but I would like to know more. Does that help?

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Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 7:01 AM

Bruce Dunning:
I believe that it is important to understand people from different perspectives so that I can draw conclusions that are better informed.
I agree.

Bruce Dunning:
Does that help?
yes :) I'm sorry if I sounded critical, but your statement about recommending his perspective on history was not clear enough (for me). I read it as you're recommending his historical theory. Baur proposed that the Church was born out of a conflict between two opposing viewpoints or two parties: a Jewish one under Peter, and a Hellenistic group under Paul. These two factions only gradually became synthesised into a single, united view by the end of the second century. It's almost comic.

Why this theory rubs me the wrong way is that with some dialogs I had with educated and 'well meaning' Muslims; I find that they use quite a similar (if not identical) theory - that Paul twisted the 'true' gospel. And that the true gospel was essentially none other than... well the Quran of course! I am now starting to realize where this theory might have evolved from!

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 7:07 AM

Sleiman:

NB.Mick:
Personally, I currently believe that Baur and the Tubingen school belong to the gravediggers of Christian Theology (what remained in Germany is for the most part a zombie that not only runs around as a living dead, but also kills and makes more zombies day by day - thinking of "from dusk till dawn" now and praying for the sun...).
It's pretty cool that you don't have a strong opinion about this Wink 

NB.Mick:
and I always thought it's better to read people firsthand to extend fairness or even grace to them. So my take is: it was influential, so get it to understand the way of thinking that propelled Baur and his followers.
Yes

For those not convinced that Bauer's philosophy belongs to the realm of the dead, you can read this article by Carl Olson

Peace, Slieman!        *smile*

                 I really appreciate the Carl Olson article!             Thanks for sending it!

                               It's interesting to me that you and Bruce and myself only live a few miles apart.  How great it might be someday to have lunch together.  Richmond Hill is about 20 miles to my West and Bruce is about 60 miles to my North!

                                                Someday....          !!!???                   Maybe ...   !!!???                       If we don't get around to it here on this terrestrial globe, we can have a good chat when the Lord calls us Home!                 ....  because of Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour, eh???!!!!         *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 7:23 AM

Milford Charles Murray:
Someday....          !!!???                   Maybe ...   !!!???   
SmileI'm in!
Milford Charles Murray:
If we don't get around to it here on this terrestrial globe, we can have a good chat when the Lord calls us Home!
You reminded me of a lovely story about a meeting between C.S. Lewis, Martin Luther & Thomas Aquinas in the afterlife. It's in chapter 7 of Peter Kreeft's Ecumenical Jihad, also available as a separate article here.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 7:47 AM

A fantastic fantasy!              Really enjoyed it!                   Found it online and saved it as a .docx file; however, I'm sure I can't share it because of copyright restrictions.

                    Thanks for sending it.   Much appreciated and will certainly study the concepts .....

here's the ending in case anyone else wants a sample ...   "

Luther: Metaphysics again!

Aquinas: But surely the objective reality of the life and grace of God is a surer basis for a connection than the subjective feeling and response of man? That sounds more like humanism than Christianity!

Luther: That is no more humanistic than your belief that our faith causes Christ's life to enter us.  I say it is rather the reverse: the object of our faith, Christ, is the cause of our act of faith.  

Aquinas: I affirm that too.  That is why I agree with your sola gratia.  Our very free will and its choice to accept God's grace is itself grace: both created by grace and healed and inspired by grace.  One of the Church's greatest saints said with her dying breath: "Everything is grace."  It is God's grace that gives us Christ.  It is Christ who gives us the Spirit.  It is the Spirit who gives us supernatural life in our souls.  It is this life that produces our faith.  Finally, this faith creates its own good works as a good tree bears good fruit.  It is all one divine chain, with six golden links, laden end to end with love.  Love begins it, as the motive for grace.  And the works of love end it.  When we do the works of love, that is God doing them in us through this golden chain.  "God is love and he who lives in love, lives in God and God in him" - that concrete reality is "mere Christianity. " But. . .  

At this point the conversation was suddenly interrupted.  All three men were beginning to smile when two things happened simultaneously.  First, a radio announced an apocalyptic event fro America: The Boston Red Sox had won the World Series.  Second, at this announcement the sky rolled apart like a scroll and all three men were raptured to Heaven.  As they ascended, they heard a Charlton Heston-like voice muttering something about "the clearest apocalyptic sign I ever gave them. " Perhaps we should get on with our work and complete the discussion they began, before it's too late.  

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 2 2013 8:10 AM

Milford Charles Murray:

   It's interesting to me that you and Bruce and myself only live a few miles apart.  How great it might be someday to have lunch together.  Richmond Hill is about 20 miles to my West and Bruce is about 60 miles to my North!

                                                Someday....          !!!???                   Maybe ...   !!!???            

I would love to do that some day! I'm often in the GTA as well.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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