[request] Bradley: Please expose the 'traits' column in collections

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:09 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kolen Cheung:
But it is a common sense among many free and/or open-source softwares.

Kolen, there are a number of people in the forums who have the skills necessary to update databases, extract data etc. in the ways you insist is necessary. May I suggest that you consider why people with first-rate skills and decades of experience, chose not to follow your suggested path and have not jumped in to support your requests?

The response to the quote is taking it out of context. What was the original quote about?

Edit: hints: the quote was replying to another quote "Do we?", and now what that was referring to then?

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:13 PM

MJ. Smith:
As with most purchased, licensed software Faithlife has made the distinction - choosing to support only the first category.

That exactly is the root of the problem. It makes any thing that cannot be supported to the "lay-est" layperson not supported at all. See my car analogy above (that probably written after your reply.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:16 PM

Kolen Cheung:
can't you just reset my data so that I can start over?

And how does this trickle through the shared data? No, one cannot simply reset data back to your initial state ... it must back you out of all shared data and statistics.Backing out corrupted data is not trivial.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:31 PM

Kolen Cheung:
That exactly is the root of the problem.

Having spent a career in IT with a brother a research engineer for Techronic, a son-in-law and grandson in IT, I see it a bit differently. I suspect you don't have sufficient experience to understand why your approach is generally avoided except in very specific applications. For example, on my machine you would find very open-source applications for (a) running model simulations for a particular class of models and (b) for constructing the most compact chart of entity-by-attribution differentiation concept chart. Open source works here because all installations are completely independent, input and customization have an appropriate granularity and creator contact information, and no one would run into the applications or understand their documentation if they were not seriously into model theory. For Logos, the various installations have different levels of integration, the application does not fit into neat granularity, and the intent is for people of all levels of knowledge to be able to use the application. But I'm bowing out of your discussions as I don't see it as a effective use of my time.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:42 PM

MJ. Smith:
it must back you out of all shared data and statistics.Backing out corrupted data is not trivial.

I don't care if they need to wipe my existence in the cloud database as long as I got to keep my licenses to my resources (i.e. the books, etc.) I don't keep much data in Logos anyway except when there's no choice (i.e. collections, tags, priorities, highlights, etc.) Yes it would be very inconvenient to start even only these over, but I can accept the consequence of this in case I "killed myself" in the experiment.

Since you don't represent Faithlife, I won't read too much into the technical side. (Along the lines of what you said almost suggested a vulnerability in their design that can result in an attack to their server database.) What I want to hear is from Faithlife if they at least support "wiping me clean while preserving my licenses."

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:44 PM

MJ. Smith:
But I'm bowing out of your discussions as I don't see it as a effective use of my time.

Best of your move yet, because, you know, you have a tendency to turn everything into an argument. Wink

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 12:05 AM

Kolen Cheung:
For example, one of the thing I want to do requiring the knowledge of the spec of logo4/etc. resources is personal book with interlinear.

Curious what Reverse Interlinear(s) are desired ?

Kolen Cheung:
In this imaginary scenario, while I don't expect you guys can recover my database in the cloud, can't you just reset my data so that I can start over?

A start over possibility (completely loses your notes/highlights, documents, reading progress, collections, tags, priorities, ...):

  • Create new Faithlife account with new email
  • Pay $ 20 to Faithlife for transfer of all Library resource licenses from old account to new account
  • Have Faithlife disable (lock) old account

FYI: this start over also loses your order history.

Kolen Cheung:
Using an analogy about cars.

Cars lack complexity of data synchronization with servers (and other devices), which has a number of nuances. Spectacular data corruption could cause your Faithlife account not to be usable on any device (desktop and mobile), which would be a synchronized mess.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 2:36 AM

Please don't hijack this thread, which is about encouraging Faithlife to find a way to expose the 'traits' data within Logos Bible Software. Please start another thread if you want to talk about different things.

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 3:05 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Curious what Reverse Interlinear(s) are desired ?

There are 2 Chinese Bible databases I knew about, from 2 old brothers. One is published somewhere else already, another is something of his lifetime work, but because of his insistence of publishing them freely, it is still hasn't been release. (For now let's focused on this later brother.) His has spent a small fortune hiring a Jewish person (interesting combination of gentile hiring Hebrews) building a half-finished Bible software, and unfortunately the state is so broken and that Jewish guy has found another job, with no documentation whatsoever, he has to give that up. Apparently he might have met Bob and in their conservation it seems Bob has told him in order to build a Bible software one need a million dollar (from verbal dialog so IRRC.) About a decade ago I asked Bob and he said that a reverse interlinear feature will be available soon on PBB. But as usual that hasn't been released (I don't blame them too much, it is easy to promise first until they found a ton of technical issues making it economically infeasible to deliver a working feature.) Recently I have a casual dialog with a Faithlife employee and he said they have no interests in releasing these 2 Chinese Bibles.

So the problem is, in order to enter the Logos ecosystem, one needs the sanction from Logos to be produced by them (often just business decision.) Or you publish via PBB giving people instruction to obtain Logos for free and compile their PBB. BUT, that doesn't work for reverse interlinear title. That makes indie Bible publishing in Logos very hard. (Just to make sure you don't get that wrong, indie here doesn't mean low quality. They are reputable among Chinese Christian circles. But, you know, how much quality Chinese Christian works are there, and how much of them are deemed valuable in the whole "Christian" world where the English / translated-in-English titles are the best? There ain't much good non-indie Chinese Bible anyway, and the 2 brothers I am referring to are pioneers among Chinese Christians to even have Strong number referencing in the Chinese Bible (the later brother's earlier work was together with another now-passed-away brother to produce the first Chinese NT Bible (CUV) with Strong numbers and concordance.).)

Another obvious use of reverse interlinear in PBB is personal Bible translation. I'm sure most people here has done it as an exercise. But as personal books one wrote should be compiled in Logos to use personally (I have a few Bible commentaries compiled and used personally only.) So why not also their own Bible translation, to not let their own notes/works wasted, but at least be their own resources (or even shared)?

Sadly, reverse interlinear in PBB has been requested repeatedly, but it seems at last there's an official statement from a Faithlife/Logos staff stating this feature won't be released.

That's not the end of the world. The first brother I mentioned released his work in a Chinese Bible software which I have bought a copy, but is next to unusable (a few clicks and it crashes!) He also released a web version which is much better (and free! I wish I hasn't purchased that Bible software.) Lately it is also released for free in another mobile app.

It is just very sad Logos-only users cannot make these resources available in the Logos ecosystem. Not only for personal use, but also as a promotion to others who might interested in this resource to start using Logos. It might be hard to imagine, but in my circle, I'm the only one using Logos and I want to change that. (And I've met quite a few different Chinese Christians from different churches. None of those I know uses Logos. I successfully referred to 1 friend to buy Logos though, when Logos still offer referral promotion where the friend get ~25% off discounts and I get like $25.)

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Cars lack complexity of data synchronization with servers

Sadly analogy is never exact. I'm more referring to the desire to DIY. And that's (referring to what you said about cloud's complexity) why I hate the whole cloud thing in general. It takes away the control from the user. Worst kind of cloud is "magical cloud" where it try to be "just works" a.k.a. magical. As I often said, "When it works, it's magic; when it doesn't work, it's magic!" The better kind of cloud is something like Dropbox that gives you version control. i.e. it tries its best, but knows disasters might happen and give you a way to undo. And since the data (files) are transparent to users and nothing but a directory structure, one can always backup and restore. (Many apps relies on Dropbox for cloud sync benefits from the same safety. That's why mobile app cloud sync, whenever involving using a 3rd party cloud service, almost always provides Dropbox first if not the only sync solution. I'm not saying it's the best though.)

Thanks for your constructive input (especially on the worst case scenario to pay $20.) I'm smiling. Smile

P.S. I'd really like to know if such disastrous situation can really happen, namely, a corrupted database, pushed to the cloud, sync everywhere, undoable disaster. I wonder if it is just Faithlife/Logos' tactics to discourage users to not do this, worrying in the end they are the one who need to fix the mess and took the blame. It is because (if it can be that disastrous,) it just seems to be a very fragile implementation, without validation, and without "snapshots". It seems to me either they don't implement it very well, or they're bluffing. Of course I won't know the answer here (unless one becomes a Faithlife employee and peek at the code!) But in principle there's an easy test here, just use a testing account to try one's best to corrupt the database and see what happens. (Everyone should knows that this is strongly discouraged however. But I'm a Theoretical Scientist meaning I focus on what can be tested in theory, not that one has to perform that experiment. i.e. this is a case that is falsifiable.)

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 3:19 AM

Mark Barnes:

Please don't hijack this thread, which is about encouraging Faithlife to find a way to expose the 'traits' data within Logos Bible Software. Please start another thread if you want to talk about different things.

I don't know if you include my theoretical solution to this (by writing traits to db as tags and working from there.) But I genuinely believe this is a possible theoretical solution. To recap I focus on if things are possible or not first. (That's why I started that question with "in principle".) You know, for theorists, theoretically possible means the problem is solved (i.e. logically.) Whether one want to start implementing the theory into an actual experiment is a separate matter.

Sadly, people keep digressing in a db-writing-phobia without really answering if in principle it can be done or not.

And then there's also a now vs future problem. Yes, they said they will expose it. But when? And even before asking that, will it really happens? As the example I've given a few times (the PBB interlinear feature promised by Bob himself and later cancelled), I don't trust their promise until it arrives. Before that happens, one should really ask how a certain goal can be achieved right now, even if there's no help from Faithlife/Logos whatsoever.

Also in case someone might think what I said isn't about "exposing" the traits. Recall my first post on this I did mention if one can get enough people to do this simultaneously such that it can be considered a community tag, then it is a kind of exposure. Yes I know Faithlife/Logos discourages that, so it is difficult to get a lot of people doing just that. But in principle, it works.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 5:22 AM

Kolen Cheung:
Sadly, people keep digressing in a db-writing-phobia without really answering if in principle it can be done or not.

Start a new thread asking that question, and I will answer that question (and repeat all the reasons I and others have given elsewhere why it's not a good idea).

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 5:34 AM

Mark Barnes:

Kolen Cheung:
Sadly, people keep digressing in a db-writing-phobia without really answering if in principle it can be done or not.

Start a new thread asking that question, and I will answer that question (and repeat all the reasons I and others have given elsewhere why it's not a good idea).

No, because I don’t think I have digressed, and I don’t think there will be anything new coming from there.

People here are too hostile to ideas like this, which is unnessary. I heard you about that being not supported and no one hear I ain’t asking for permission because I don’t need any. I just need to know if that is in principle doable. If not, I won’t even waste time trying to start working on it. Else I still might not start it because the time cost might not worth it if the problem Im trying to solve is too small. But I like to gather ideas in my brain first so when problems arise there’s a possible direction to go for.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 5:39 AM

Kolen Cheung:
I just need to know if that is in principle doable.

Of course its doable in principle. Nobody would bother giving you all the reasons not to do it if it was technically impossible anyway. But again, if you haven't understood that from everything that everyone has already said, then you don't have the ability or the knowledge to pull it off without breaking everything, probably irreparably.

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 5:46 AM

I said repeated not breaking anything is not the point. The point is there’s a well controlled way to contain any problems in a sandboxed VM with snapshot for fast prototyping.

But thanks for letting me know it is doable in principle. That would save me time. I start peeking into the db last weekend. But this is not a high priority item for me. One of my higher priority item is define certain format that can be compiled to PBB docx. This has been on my mind for years but some recent new info got me existed to revived this idea. I got digressed however.

edit: there’s also a very different way of looking at problem solving here. One view is that someone first know much about the db first and gradually accessed if a certain thing is doable. Those thinks without such knowledge first one can’t even start thinking about the next step. I however like to access what that ability (knowing the db well) will enable me to do certain things. Now if any of them becomes my goal I’ll spent my time doing it else won’t even spend time looking into it.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 8:42 AM

Kolen Cheung:
The point is there’s a well controlled way to contain any problems in a sandboxed VM with snapshot for fast prototyping.

A sandboxed VM that never syncs to your Logos account  is the only way to contain any problems.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 8:58 AM

Mark Barnes:

For example, the data in the traits column would allow us to create collections of:

  • All our reverse interlinears
  • All the morphologically tagged resources (which a specific morphology)
  • All the resources used in the Illustrations section of the SSG.
  • All the resources that have spoken audio

Dreaming of a Faithlife supported exposure for interlinear(s):

  • Interlinear
  • Reverse
  • Bible Book range

An interlinear change since this thread began 5 years ago is Logos 8 Basic including free access to many Reverse Interlinear resources.

Also would appreciate a column showing Morphological tagging in resource that ideally matches Morph Search choices. One change since this thread began is the removal of one Greek Morphology (transitioned to Logos Greek Morphology). Work around for personal tagging is searching all resources for word(s) that frequently occur: e.g. the definite article.

Like idea of a Library column that shows which resource(s) have their own audio recording (while dreaming of a Hebrew Bible Read Aloud for Lexham Hebrew Morphology)

Keep Smiling Smile

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 4:25 PM

Mark Barnes:

Kolen Cheung:
The point is there’s a well controlled way to contain any problems in a sandboxed VM with snapshot for fast prototyping.

A sandboxed VM that never syncs to your Logos account  is the only way to contain any problems.

I disagree but let’s agree to disagree.

And even that is not all that limiting. I really tried to keep my cloud interaction minimal.

Even if one is imposing that requirement (never sync back once modified) to themselves, they can always use snapshot to help. When there’s an update one want to sync, revert back to unmodified status and update and then run an automated script to the desired result again.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2019 10:12 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Like idea of a Library column that shows which resource(s) have their own audio recording

That would be great!

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 14 2019 5:47 PM

I uses the trait from the resource metadata API to create search query string by title search. The collection rules are dumped in https://github.com/logos-extras/logos-meta-dump.

From collection_rules_all.yml I created a bunch of example public collections started with “Collection—”

And from collection_rules_traits.yml I created a bunch of example public collections started with “Trait—”, which is of interest in this thread. Examples are:

  • Collection Nested—Audio
  • Trait—media-type:audio
  • Trait—audio-target
  • Trait—audio-source
  • Trait—has-reverse-interlinear

Note that it is not perfect because it is limited by the features Logos currently offered and specifically uses a title search. E.g. ‘Trait—has-reverse-interlinear’ includes “中文聖經和合本修訂版(上帝版.繁體)” for example, although its reverse interlinear feature is still in pre-pub. Not to mention some license that one might not own while owning a title with that name (e.g. one might not own the reverse interlinear license or an audio license.)

Moreover, title search has some bug (in another thread) and not exact (e.g. different resource of the same title, or one has a longer title including the other might be included as well.)

But right now, it is the best way one can create collection rules based on trait. For example, if you want to have an OR match on different traits, you can create 3 collections with those trait individually and then apply an OR-collection search, as an example in “Collection Nested—Audio” above.

Also note that the performance is not great since it is not performing an exact search. But again it is the only way given the current feature available right now. If you own cared resources you own, then you can "collapse" that search by performing a library search and save that result as a collection and it will be collapsed into a collection with "add this resource" only, as noted by Mark from another thread.

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